Chimpanzee Religion

[Bear Wild]

While I recognize that chimps display proto-religious behaviors from which a religion could emerge, I am dubious about whether they have developed something that is a fully fledged religion. I am not saying I don't think they can. We have no idea when the practice developed in humans and there is nothing to say it did not develop in our ancestors. Evidence for ritualistic behavior in humans goes back as far as 50,000 years as I recall and there is half million year old evidence of abstract thinking in Homo erectus revealing a capability of artistic representation. Given that chimps are our closest relatives and have a high degree of intelligence, they certainly posses a basis for the development of religion.

I have even wondered if I am hoping they don't, since has caused us so much trouble. Maybe they could surpass us by finding a way around it.

I mentioned whales in a humorous way, but also because they are in a large group of species of high intelligence. Being so radically different than hominids, I wonder if similarly behavior and potential exists with them.

I remember in the 1970s when I first heard of the question (just a question) of whether chimpanzees could have religious behavior. I remember the reactions when it was laughed off as being anthropomorphic. It was not until the 2000s did I start to see that more and more of human behaviors could be reevaluated when looking at nonhuman animal behavior. I cant remember where I read it but I remember an explanation of something like - since nonhuman animals do not have language to confuse what is being observed we see and measure the behavior without misleading questionnaires. When we started observing rat behavior of helping another rat trapped over a food reward our view of rats changed. The amazing collection of observed behavior of apes has forced us to question the behavioral wall between humans and nonhuman animals.

So why propose such question of whether chimpanzees have religion or not?

We cannot use language to determine the answer thus we have to look at behavioral patterns. Religion is behavior so this forces us to understand religion in behavioral patterns instead of words. We get at the real behavior of religion. Maybe it is just the beginnings of religion patterns but if religion is adaptive then we should be able to look for it in other animals.

It also makes us rethink what really is religion all about. Even if there is a god ( or goddess) that created the world why would that god limit religion to only one species. At the minimum the consideration at least makes take a fresh look at what we consider religion.

The idea that

 

[Bear Wild]

I've put a lot of thought into trying to understand how animals "think"/ experience consciousness in the last five years. I've written about it extensively but most isn't relevant here. The Egyptians referred to awareness arising like a lily from under the waters of the Nile. Since animals think in four dimensions rather than our one dimension an individual would not be able to follow his own thoughts.

I agree that "thought" is necessarily language based and that if an animal learns a different language then its thoughts will be in that new language.

There was some pundit a couple centuries back who suggested that ancient people experienced thought as though listening to an unseen individual. Where he got this idea I do not know but it's an interesting concept and may well have a grain of truth to it. He believed this unseen individual because the basis of the concept of "God".

Thought is not necessarily language based. We observe thought processes in animals all of the time that do not have a formal language. We may not be able to imagine it ourselves because we are so language based but that does not mean it does not happen.

 

[cladking]

I read something like that recently but can't find it again. It's somewhere in the intersection of anthropology, psychology (subclinical dissociative disorder), linguistics, evolution, philosophy of mind and religion.

I only remember I ran into it when researching the understanding of ancient metaphysics. There was a lot of interesting stuff but my favorite was;

C16SON5X/book-of-thoth-butler.pdf

I'm not sure the link still works. "Semiotic Metaphysics in the Book of Thoth".

These are the most interesting aspects related to the thinking of "animals":

Quote

The-one-who-loves-knowledge, he says: “I have rowed in the circuits (?) of the sea (among?) the apprentices who are in the sacred bark … Fill my fingers (with) the rudder of the field-dwellers! I spent a thousand years while I rowed therein.”13

Quote

The-one-who-loves-knowledge, he says: “I have fished (with) the net of Shentait, Shai … the net of …” The Opener upon his Standard,26 he says: “What is the taste of the prescription27 of writing? What is this net?”28

Quote

: “The-one-who-loves-knowledge, he says:
‘Let one command for me the word which gives birth to the prophets that I may cause that they become pregnant in my flesh’,

Quote

… hieroglyphic sign, craftsman. Let him who is strong of arm be at rest (?)! The … breath (?) … Does … the servants of Horus, they raising a troop more numerous than the enchantments of the heart?

Quote

Is a learned one he who instructs? The sacred beasts and the birds, teaching comes about for them, (but) what is the book chapter which they have read? The fourfooted beasts which are upon the mountains, do they not have guidance?89

Quote

These dogs, these jackals, these baboons, these snakes which prophesize according to their utterances … […].90 I have seen (?) the dogs which are as scribes (?) […].91 […] writing of the dog […].92 […] these sacred animals which open up the storeroom

Quote

He knew the form of speech of the baboons and the ibises. He went about truly (?) in the hall of the dog. He did not restrain their barking. He understood the barkings of these and these cries of the land of the fathers … He made the four pleas (?) of the wild beasts, one by one … He understood them.

Quote

May I enter therein, namely, the character (?) of all the ibises, that I betake myself to the place of the servants of Thoth.97 May I wake up in the Chamber of Darkness, the wonder (?) of the Ibis under his guidance (?).98

[I believe the chamber of darkness is just beyond the thermal anomaly where seshat wrote the Book of Thot from the ropes.]

Quote

She (probably seshat) works some forty (with) gold and turquoise, another two (with) real lapis [lazuli ?] (in) the hall. The vulture discovered its young between [the] pillars (?) [belonging to] an entrance-way (of) the House of Life.

Quote

The foremost also of them, he being as a lamp which is lit, while he interprets their language.

 

[Bear Wild]

Tell me do you believe a bee's waggle dance is an homage to the gods or that a beaver is honoring the swamp gods by inventing dams? No! There are no abstractions in animal languages because they can't understand abstraction because their language can format no abstraction. They have no beliefs and don't even experience "thought".

This is incorrect based on the observations and studies we already have. We know that apes can remember a location of food, prepare the distance and timing to reach the spot and work as a group. This requires thought and abstractions. With hunting behavior we see complex cooperative behavior in the hunt as well as in the sharing of the prey. These are not thoughtless behaviors. There are so many examples you can find in ethnology research.

 

[cladking]

Thought is not necessarily language based. We observe thought processes in animals all of the time that do not have a formal language. We may not be able to imagine it ourselves because we are so language based but that does not mean it does not happen.

I occasionally catch myself not "thinking; not engaging in an internal dialog. I'm sure this is NOT language based.

 

[Bear Wild]

I find the word, "religion", to be so broad that I'd prefer to avoid anything
absolute. But evidence should be something different from traits which
apply to all humans, including the most definitely non-religious ones.

Professed belief in or communication to supernatural entities would be
strong indicators. This would require our understanding their languages
far better than we do.
The problem with using social behaviors is that non-religious people also
have those, so they'd be a useless indicator of religion. So for example,
let's say that we saw some bonobos at a church social....how could we
know they weren't there just to pick up some babes or have some pie?

To say chimpanzees do not have a religion you would require some description of what is needed to be considered religion. Maybe they only have pre-religious behaviors but you still have to make some statement on at least the most basic aspects of behavior that would indicate religion.

 

[Revoltingest]

To say chimpanzees do not have a religion you would require some description of what is needed to be considered religion. Maybe they only have pre-religious behaviors but you still have to make some statement on at least the most basic aspects of behavior that would indicate religion.

I don't say that chimps have no religion.
(Although I strongly suspect that they don't.)
Let those who claim they have religion show us evidence.

 

[Bear Wild]

I don't say that chimps have no religion.
(Although I strongly suspect that they don't.)
Let those who claim they have religion show us evidence.

What evidence would be acceptable. The article presented evidence that the author felt showed relevant observable behavior to evolution.
If your are asking for evidence you need to identify what evidence is acceptable otherwise asking for evidence is meaningless since you already reject the evidence proposed.

 

[Revoltingest]

What evidence would be acceptable. The article presented evidence that the author felt showed relevant observable behavior to evolution.
If your are asking for evidence you need to identify what evidence is acceptable otherwise asking for evidence is meaningless since you already reject the evidence proposed.

I've already addressed these points.

 

[Bear Wild]

So from what I read of your posts I found. If I am incorrect please let me know.

1. Professed belief in or communication to supernatural entities
2. Icon reference
3. Attending church services.

With these criteria I understand why you do not believe there could not be any evidence for religion for chimpanzees. These criteria eliminate lots thinks I would have considered religion. I even know some Quakers who consider themselves Christian that would not meet your criteria.

 

[Cooky]

What evidence would be acceptable. The article presented evidence that the author felt showed relevant observable behavior to evolution.
If your are asking for evidence you need to identify what evidence is acceptable otherwise asking for evidence is meaningless since you already reject the evidence proposed.

I wonder if all species would express religious sentiments at a certain point of consciousness... If so, I wonder if it is a natural law.

...Maybe one day we'll discover intelligent alien life, and if they do, then we know it's an inevitable, law of nature that conscious, intelligent beings always tend to acknowledge a higher power somehow.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Chimpanzee Religion

Do Chimpanzees have religion?

Do we have any evidence that Chimpanzees have religious behavior or is there clear evidence that chimpanzees cannot have religion.

James B. Harrod proposed the following Trans species dimensions to try and define what may be observed as evidence for religion.

“· Reverence (showing devotion, intense love, deep respect)

· Careful observance, which may involve a calling-out announcement or remark

· Experiencing or expressing emotion of dread (awe in its terror or astonishment aspect) before that which overwhelms the subject by its magnitude, grandeur, beneficence, or lethality; mysterium tremendum

· Experiencing or expressing emotion of wonder (awe in its fascina-tion, curiosity, or desire-to-know-more aspect) with respect to a phenomenon (especially a movement) which is surprising, non-ordinary, extraordinary, special, or ‘miraculous’; mysterium fascinans

· Binding individuals together or back together in empathic intimacy or communion with respect to experiences of aliveness and animacy, including other living beings or things that appearto be alive, which may secondarily involve the witnessing of this by a collective social group. “



The article and its evidence can be read at this sight.

www.researchgate.net/publication/276915021_The_Case_for_Chimpanzee_Religion_2014



The evolution of humans behavior patterns has created religion in humans. Certainly our closely related family on this planet – the other apes – have significant behavioral traits in common with us.

Is there a case for chimpanzee religion?

As religion, as commonly understood, is very closely related with story telling, I think it's safe to say that it's a human thing.

However, at the root of religion we find the thing called "superstition".

And superstition is something that is extremely common throughout the animal kingdom.

 

[Bear Wild]

As religion, as commonly understood, is very closely related with story telling, I think it's safe to say that it's a human thing.

However, at the root of religion we find the thing called "superstition".

And superstition is something that is extremely common throughout the animal kingdom.

If we see religion as stories or writings then there is no evidence any other organism has a complex enough language or writing to be considered a religion.

I would argue that religion is behavior and behavioral patterns. The stories represent patterns of behavior that a social group considers important. Most religious text is directed to describing a pattern of behavior. Those parts that describe creation stories or life after death address the emotional states of fear and curiosity which also relate to behavior. I am open to examples that can not be associated with behavior.

So if we apply behavioral patterns associated with religion then we can see human religion in a different perspective and have the ability for comparative evaluations of animal behavioral patterns.

I would also argue that we place to much emphasis on words as important over actions when understanding religions. The strangest example of this is in the new testament. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This text makes places words on a whole new level equivalent with god. This makes it clear that the written words describe the exact behaviors.