Chiristianity can be harmful to children.

[icehorse]

Atheism implies that we are all meaningless byproducts of blind natural processes sitting on a mountain of lies we constructed for ourselves to make some sense of our absurd existence and are all doomed for extinction like most other species that ever came to be on our irrelevant little speck of dust in a tiny corner of a massive cold, dark and empty universe that will itself either boil or freeze to death leaving nothing but corpses of stars and chunks of barren rocks.

Very few atheists believe that.

If you wanna traumatize a little kid, atheism is where you should go, not a religion that gives hope for eternal joy and provides meaning and morals with an actual basis beyond useful lies. Needless to say, the cross never did anything to me or anyone I know.

Can you give some examples of these meanings and morals you mention here?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Funny, because not even you actually believe that:


So, you say love and compassion aren't online functions, but then point out your actions that suggests otherwise.

According to Jesus, there is being tossed into a furnace, darkness and wailing of teeth, and eternal fire and punishment.

Are you quite so sure of that:

It seems to me you have given yourself wiggle room to judge, and you have shown yourself to utilize this wiggle room to judge others. Is it all futile anyways since it's widely acknowledged and accepted throughout Christianity that being Christian doesn't make one "sin proof?" After all, even the most firm believers continue to sin and disobey.

When I said that I had in mind that quote from Baha’u’llah. There was no personal judgement involved but I should have made that clearer.

It is for God to judge and for us to have a sin covering eye.

 

[shmogie]

Funny, because not even you actually believe that:


So, you say love and compassion aren't online functions, but then point out your actions that suggests otherwise.

According to Jesus, there is being tossed into a furnace, darkness and wailing of teeth, and eternal fire and punishment.

Are you quite so sure of that:

It seems to me you have given yourself wiggle room to judge, and you have shown yourself to utilize this wiggle room to judge others. Is it all futile anyways since it's widely acknowledged and accepted throughout Christianity that being Christian doesn't make one "sin proof?" After all, even the most firm believers continue to sin and disobey.

I said they weren´t online discussion functions. If someone is hurting so much as to express it in a forum like this, they deserve compassion. You misinterpret Christ´s words.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

One is only ¨ unworthy ¨ by the standard, the entire NT is about how loved and worthy a person is.

The standards are impossible to live upto, which is exactly the problem.

You don't set impossible standards and then punish people for not living upto it. It's beyond immorally retarded. It's like punishing a black guy for not being white.

Maybe this is a Catholic thing

No, it's a christian thing. This very thing lays at the heart of christianity. This is the whole reason that mankind is supposedly in need of saving. It's literally the point of Jesus.

, I don´t know, I am a Protestant, and we emphasize the love of God and the value of EVERY person in His eye´s.

And yet, when you are born, right out the gates you apparantly deserve a spot in the eternal torture chambers by default, just for having been born a human.

This is the default in christianity. You go to hell for the sin of being human.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

1.the "Golden Rule".

2.charity for those in need.

3.limitations on war.

5.to love one another.​

None of these are exclusively christian - or even original to christian culture.

​

4.no human sacrifices.

Except the one epic one, off course.

Now it's your turn, so give us five "good moral teachings" that have no basis whatsoever in any religion and are in their entirety secular.

You already listed the most important ones while falsely claiming religious exclusivity on them.
The fact is that none of these items require any gods or belief in gods. Not to come up with and not to find sufficient reason to live by them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Horse, respectfully, you haven´t a clue as to what you are talking about. Every one of your 9 points is abysmally wrong.

Trite little refrains that those who know no better parrot around.

I am an apologist and I side step nothing, bring it

The bible doesn't condone and even regulate slavery?
The bible doesn't have problems with homosexuality? It doesn't call it, what was it... an "abomination"?

Please...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Atheism implies that we are all meaningless byproducts of blind natural processes sitting on a mountain of lies we constructed for ourselves to make some sense of our absurd existence and are all doomed for extinction like most other species that ever came to be on our irrelevant little speck of dust in a tiny corner of a massive cold, dark and empty universe that will itself either boil or freeze to death leaving nothing but corpses of stars and chunks of barren rocks.

I'ld word it with a bit more wonder and awe, but sure. From a cosmic perspective, our small corner of the galaxy is pretty much meaningless in my worldview. In the sense that you could destroy it, including every star you see with your naked eye in the nightsky, and the vast universe would remain virtually unchanged and just go about expanding as if we never existed, sure.

What of it?
Does that change my caring that I'll be late at work? No.
Does it make me love my kids less? No.
Does it make me any less passionate about music? No.

In short: the fact that I view that cosmic thingy as a fact, doesn't change anything about my life. I'm not impacted by that in any way. I enjoy life just as much as yesterday and hopefully also tomorrow.

The universe isn't here for my comfort or urge to find meaning in everything. I think it's quite silly to get hung up on such stuff.

If you wanna traumatize a little kid, atheism is where you should go, not a religion that gives hope for eternal joy and provides meaning and morals with an actual basis beyond useful lies

But your religion doesn't just offer hope.
It offers emotional and physical blackmail. It threatens you with eternal torture.

Also, as an atheist myself, I don't teach my kids that everything is meaningless, nore is that my worldview either. That's just your warped take on it.

Needless to say, the cross never did anything to me or anyone I know.

It actually did, as this post of yours shows.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Bible does not teach that anyone will be tortured forever, that is just a confused interpretation.

In your opinion. Others have other opinions.

It's actually one of the many problems with religious beliefs. It's ultimatly all about mere opinions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Until your many atheists provide a sound framework in which atheism avoids these negative implications their opinions simply hold no weight.

It doesn't sound like you are prepared to honestly listen to such frameworks though.

I find purpose in the here and now. I don't particularly care about any cosmic meaning nore do I have reason to believe such exists. I also don't particularly care that the universe will suffer heath death in a couple trillion years because ... well.... why would anyone care about what happens in a few trillion years?

I have my peace with the idea that life ends at some point and that death is game over.
I don't have any emotional needs to believe otherwise. Do I look forward to dieing? No. All the more reason that my short time here is so meaningfull to me.

Except death is just a gateway to eternity, not a termination of our existence and all that makes us who we are. As for the world, it will be "made new" as in better than before. Perfect to be exact. Not dead, empty and futile as atheism implies

That's just what you believe religiously.
I prefer not to kid myself with stories that sound comforting.

Dealing with actual reality, instead of what I'ld like reality to be, seems a lot more meaningfull and smarter.

Let's be real, humanity will die out if atheism is true

First, atheism is not something that is "true or false" in that sense, because atheism is a single position on a single issue. There are no claims there to be true or false.

Secondly, yes, with the prospect of a universe that will eventually undergo heath death and with the sun that will eventually swallow up the inner planets of the solar system as it turns into a red giant, life on earth is doomed to go away. This however won't happen for 10s of billions of years and for the universe itself trillions of years.

So I wouldn't really worry about it. By that time, if life manages to survive that long, there won't be any humans around. Either our evolutionary branch will go extinct, or it will speciate further into things pretty much unrecognisable by then.

and given how humans are, the end is almost certainly not going to be a graceful surrender wherein everyone hugs each other and braces for the incoming end.

Off course not. At some point, just like in any other creature, survival instinct modus will kick in.

There'll be blood and brutality of the sort unseen. "If we're all gonna die tomorrow, we might as well do as we please."

I think many people will respond to such situations in many different ways.

A totally expected attitude and not at all unreasonable under an atheistic world.

Perhaps. But we are talking about imaginary situations now. Not real ones.
Perhaps you should stick to reality, where the world isn't about to end.

More like giving up minor goods (or rather appearances of good that are actually serious evils) for the true goodness that is God. You gotta make sacrifices if you want to achieve something truly worthwhile. Ask any champion in anything. The road to great goals is filled with sacrifices. Make them or give up the truly good things life can offer.

I sacrifice loads of things in my attempted road to greatness in everything I do.
I just don't have imaginary goals.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That approach won't work with Prestor, nor with any other LDS member here, because they don't believe in Original Sin. They're one of the few sizeable Christian denominations that don't.

Yet surely they believe that Jesus came to "save" us, right?
What else would be the point of the NT?

So if that's the case, what's he saving us from, exactly?

 

[metis]

Cult? That's how you see them - a cult? What makes them a cult, in your view?

Because there's encouragement not to have close contacts with non-JW's. I saw this over and over again with my neighbors who, for example, wouldn't go to funerals outside their own faith. They refuse any ecumenical involvement, forbid even inquiring into what other faiths may believe from those faith's points of view, forbid visiting any other denomination, etc. But worst of all, they tend to drive a wedge even within their own extended family. When the one couple left, they began to try and patch-up the imposed isolation.

So you hate their teachings, and what they stand for.

I did not say that, nor do I like words put into my mouth or my thoughts.

Would you mind telling me what you like about them, that you think is lacking in mainstream "Christian" religion... if anything at all?

Dedication to their cause, which is often not as strong in other denominations.

However, I don't see where you explained anythi...

Then you didn't read what I wrote and the numerous links I provided.

So can you show that the images Deeje put up, and what she said, does not show that what she said about Catholic sun worship is true?

The use of light versus darkness is found throughout the Christian scriptures as a symbol of goodness, such as Paul's statement that we should be
children of the light". Catholicism does not allow worship of any objects whatsoever, and I linked her to numerous official Catholic sources to show that. My guess is that the leadership has brainwashed their flock into believing this lie, so the flock will tend to believe them over any official source from any other denomination, and probably most of their flock will not even bother to check up on this from other sources.

Anyhow, I really have no desire to relitigate this as I've gone through this so many times before, so you're gonna have to try and argue with someone else. But one thing I can leave you with is that let me make a strong suggestion that you do not blindly accept what your leaders may tell you and actually start looking things up from non-JW sources, including "the horse's mouth". Before blindly believing that Catholics worship the sun, for example, maybe get into some of the official Catholic sites, such as the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", which can be found on-line, or maybe google "do Catholics worship the sun" and check for official Catholic links.

Anyhow, take care.

 

[metis]

None of these are exclusively christian - or even original to christian culture.

I never said they were. The point is that this is the position that the Judeo-Christian heritage taught and teaches that permeates most of our laws in the west directly or indirectly. If you ever took a poli sci course, this should have been taught as laws do not come from a base in nowhere.

Except the one epic one, off course.

The pre-Christian and non-Jewish Romans did that.

You already listed the most important ones while falsely claiming religious exclusivity on them.

I never made such a claim.

 

[shmogie]

The bible doesn't condone and even regulate slavery?
The bible doesn't have problems with homosexuality? It doesn't call it, what was it... an "abomination"?

Please...

Slavery, actually in many cases a form of indentured servitude, was used by a specific people, the Jews, 4,000 years ago. They were a migrant people in the process of conquering a homeland.

It was for a specific people, in a specific place, for a specific purpose for a specific time.

Contrary to the uninformed , slavery is not condoned in the New Testament. Paul specifically states that if a slave has an opportunity at freedom, they are to take it.

The Bible doesn´t have a ¨problem¨ with homosexuality. Again, for the Jews it wasn´t tolerated, period.

Under the new covenant, Christianity, homosexuality outside the Church is not to be judged ( Paul´s direct words) inside the Church it cannot be part of a members lifestyle. It doesn´t preclude them from attending, and participating in classes and services. They cannot be official members.

Homosexuality is a behavior. Most true Christians must sacrifice something in their life to follow Christ. For many it is a large sacrifice. No one is compelled to seek the Christian life, it is purely their choice. No one is compelled to sacrifice anything they want to continue pursuing, it is their choice.

Christianity does not exist to be a sycophantic follower of secular society, itś ideaś, itś morality.

It came into existence in the debased moral world of the Roman Empire, and followers were butchered for their steadfastness to their core beliefs.

Bottom line, true Christianity will adhere to itś core beliefs. This may and does upset some who demand conformity to their own particular ideaś. They can be upset, we will remain steadfast.

 

[shmogie]

In your opinion. Others have other opinions.

It's actually one of the many problems with religious beliefs. It's ultimatly all about mere opinions.

An interpretation based upon extended exegesis isn´t an opinion, it is a reasonable hypothesis.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I never said they were.

Cool. So you acknowledge that your "top 5" of moral teachings in the bible, aren't at all dependent on the bible.

That means that the bible isn't necessary or even relevant for morality. Great. I agree.

The point is that this is the position that the Judeo-Christian heritage taught and teaches that permeates most of our laws in the west directly or indirectly.

Which it itself thus has borrowed from other cultures and/or heritages. Great.
Sure, good ideas are good ideas regardless.

Point remains that none of these are exclusive to or originated with judeo-christian culture.

The pre-Christian and non-Jewish Romans did that.

According to plan, right?
I mean, that was his destiny, wasn't it?
That was the whole point of him being born, right, to eventually be sacrificed to "save" human kind?

I never made such a claim.

You kind of did....

Here's what you said: Now it's your turn, so give us five "good moral teachings" that have no basis whatsoever in any religion and are in their entirety secular.

That means that you are implying that the list you gave HAS a basis in religion. And as you were asked to list your top 5 of moral teachings in the bible, I'ld assume that the religion you think these things have a basis in, would be christianity.

But you agreed (well, implicitly at least) in your top quote in this post, that these points aren't in fact exclusively religious. However, if you knew that, then you must have also known that these points could just as well be made from a secular standpoint. Yet you ask for a list "that has no basis whatsoever in religion" - insinuating that a secular person would not be able to list the same points you did.


Surely you can understand how this seems very confusing and self-contradictory.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Christianity certainly has some sadomasochistic elements to it.

Mmhmm. Medieval Catholicism might as well have been Hellraiser. There's a real obsession with suffering and inflicting it on yourself that isn't found in other denominations, besides certain types of puritanical Protestant fundamentalism.

Sadism, Masochism and Sadomasochism - Bad News About Christianity

 

[shmogie]

The standards are impossible to live upto, which is exactly the problem.

You don't set impossible standards and then punish people for not living upto it. It's beyond immorally retarded. It's like punishing a black guy for not being white.



No, it's a christian thing. This very thing lays at the heart of christianity. This is the whole reason that mankind is supposedly in need of saving. It's literally the point of Jesus.



And yet, when you are born, right out the gates you apparantly deserve a spot in the eternal torture chambers by default, just for having been born a human.

This is the default in christianity. You go to hell for the sin of being human.

I am not sure where you received your theological knowledge, but it is rather confused.

The standards you refer to are acknowledged by God to be impossible, but that isn´t the issue.

The issue is dedication to trying to live up to the standard, and achieving continued improvement in doing so.

From the very beginning in the First covenant with the Jews there was a system of continued forgiveness and atonement for the people. The law existed not to demand compliance, but rather to illustrate the inability of the individual to achieve perfection by their effort.

Forgiveness and atonement brought them into compliance, not anything they could do of themselves.

The new covenant is totally based upon upon the concept of atonement and forgiveness. In addition, there is the added element of the substitutionary life and death of Christ.

A true Christian is perfect in their life, because Christś perfect life is accounted to them. They are punished for their failures and sins, because Christś death is accounted to them. They are justified and positionally perfect in Gods eyes. They have kept the law perfectly.

In themselves the true Christian is being forgiven and empowered to do better, to treat others with respect, and kindness. To do more for those in need, to be a clearer and clearer reflection of Christ. If this does not occur, then the believer has abandoned their dedication and commitment. They may very well be outside forgiveness and atonement.

 

[metis]

That means that the bible isn't necessary or even relevant for morality. Great. I agree.

Yep.

According to plan, right?
I mean, that was his destiny, wasn't it?
That was the whole point of him being born, right, to eventually be sacrificed to "save" human kind?

Some say, but I really don't get into that.

However, if you knew that, then you must have also known that these points could just as well be made from a secular standpoint.

My point was, to put it another way, that there is no such thing as a "secular viewpoint" but there are myriads of secular viewpoints that vary a great deal from each other. OTOH, a couple of basic teachings in most religions is to "do unto others that which you'd want done unto yourself", plus there's the "love one another" teaching that's commonplace. Even though some secular humanistic philosophies may mimic that, it's not at all intrinsic across the board in secular thought.

Surely you can understand how this seems very confusing and self-contradictory.

Because that's the way you interpreted it.

It's sorta a "chicken v egg" question, namely does religion create morals for society or do the mores and folkways of society establish the teachings found within religion-- or both? The answer is really not at all clear, although both theists and non-theists have their opinions on that.

Me, I'm sorta neutral as I have "I don't know" copyrighted. You might check out "My Faith Statement" at the bottom of my posts for clarification.

 

[Apologes]

They tend to be pretty big into existentialism (or guided by existentialist principles) and find meaning and purpose in life.

Existentialism is a broad term.

Instead of assuming things about them why not ask them to find out how they themselves believe and feel?

You're assuming that I'm assuming. From my many interactions with atheists online, none have really succeeded in demonstrating how their view avoids those implications. Feel free to try. Existentialist philosophers are often quoted in favor of what I said so I'm wondering what argument you'll bring forth.

That is absolutely horrifying. To give up a life up fulfillment, meaning, and purpose all for hopes and wishes of what might come next.

How in the world does this relate to that from that paragraph?

Why bother improving what we have now when it's dirt compared to what comes next?

This is the equivalent to asking "Why bother doing anything when we're all gonna die in the end?" Seeing how you don't accept that as a good question I find it funny you'd bring up this one.

Why savor and enjoy this life to the fullest when the next one is better and lasts forever (a horribly dreadful thought of itself when you really think about it).

You find eternal joy and happiness dreadful but living a life of hardships that ultimately ends in nothing and amounts to nothing cool. Might wanna get that checked.

No, it's clear that it will be most people, as most people have and will continue to die without having accepted Jesus as their savior.

No, it's actually clear that only evil people end up in hell. Read the Book of Revelation more carefully if that's what you're referring to.

I doubt it. We have yet to see any wars or major conflicts in the name of atheism.

Way to miss the point. I didn't say humanity will die out because atheism will somehow destroy it. I said if atheism is true, humanity will die out like everything else.

That's a baseless assumption founded in ignorance.

Ignorance? Have you ever bothered to look at how filled up our prisons are? What history have you been reading? One filled with sunshine and rainbows or the real one filled with bloodshed and greed? Cut it with the rose-tinted view of humanity.

If you really need religion or an ancient book to tell you not to kill, steal, rape, and so on, you have a very seriously messed up and extremely damaged moral compass. All that argument does is reflect a possible lack of moral character of those who would think it.

Never said you needed a book.

Funny how those sacrifices you mention as an example are of worldly pleasures, self betterment, glory of self and group, and getting caught up in the worldly things that Jesus said you aren't supposed to be caught up in.

Clarify.

And for the same reason a Hindu follows their religion, or a Muslim theirs, a Pagan their own, and so on and so forth. Y'all can't be right, and none of ya have anymore proof than the other.

Wrong but irrelevant to the thread.

I'ld word it with a bit more wonder and awe, but sure. From a cosmic perspective, our small corner of the galaxy is pretty much meaningless in my worldview. In the sense that you could destroy it, including every star you see with your naked eye in the nightsky, and the vast universe would remain virtually unchanged and just go about expanding as if we never existed, sure.

What of it?
Does that change my caring that I'll be late at work? No.

Why do you care if you end up being late? Getting fired? Not securing financial well-being as a result of that? Not being able to survive? You're biologically wired to strive to survive as much as possible, obviously you're pressured to care for your survival. There is really nothing to make such a big fuzz about though. Objectively, your existence amounts to nothing and whatever drive you feel to make it to work tomorrow, is purely a result of biological programming that plays a part in a long, repetitive but ultimately futile game of prolonging a species survival.

Does it make me love my kids less? No.

You love your kids for the same way. Preserve offspring so as to keep the species going. What for? What is it that makes your kids so special and worth preserving? Why not care about a bunch of flies instead? Because of your biological programming. Because you're made to feel good if you keep your kids safe but feel like you're wasting energy if you do the same for a bunch of flies. In reality, both activities are just as irrelevant. So by all means, keep loving your kids. Just remember that you're playing along with a meaningless game and are forced to act as if that's not the case.

In short: the fact that I view that cosmic thingy as a fact, doesn't change anything about my life. I'm not impacted by that in any way. I enjoy life just as much as yesterday and hopefully also tomorrow.

Of course you do, if you didn't you'd join the vast majority of other extinct species.

The universe isn't here for my comfort or urge to find meaning in everything. I think it's quite silly to get hung up on such stuff.

It'd actually be acting consistently to your beliefs. Impractical? Sure. Silly? No.

But your religion doesn't just offer hope.
It offers emotional and physical blackmail. It threatens you with eternal torture.

Hardly. It simply informs you of the consequences of your actions.

Also, as an atheist myself, I don't teach my kids that everything is meaningless, nore is that my worldview either. That's just your warped take on it.

Oh but you just affirmed it in the beginning of your post. What's with the sudden change of heart when it comes to your kids?

I find purpose in the here and now.

What sort of purpose?

I don't particularly care about any cosmic meaning nore do I have reason to believe such exists. I also don't particularly care that the universe will suffer heath death in a couple trillion years because ... well.... why would anyone care about what happens in a few trillion years?

Why not?

I have my peace with the idea that life ends at some point and that death is game over.
I don't have any emotional needs to believe otherwise. Do I look forward to dieing? No. All the more reason that my short time here is so meaningfull to me.

Meaningful in what sense?

Dealing with actual reality, instead of what I'ld like reality to be, seems a lot more meaningfull and smarter.

I was outlining the difference in implications of the two views without defending the truth of either. Your scoffing comments are hardly relevant to what I said there.

First, atheism is not something that is "true or false" in that sense, because atheism is a single position on a single issue. There are no claims there to be true or false.

"God doesn't exist" isn't a claim central to atheism and it can't be true or false? Remarkable how many atheists don't understand their own position.

Secondly, yes, with the prospect of a universe that will eventually undergo heath death and with the sun that will eventually swallow up the inner planets of the solar system as it turns into a red giant, life on earth is doomed to go away. This however won't happen for 10s of billions of years and for the universe itself trillions of years.

So I wouldn't really worry about it. By that time, if life manages to survive that long, there won't be any humans around. Either our evolutionary branch will go extinct, or it will speciate further into things pretty much unrecognisable by then.

So... "It won't happen to me so I don't care if it happens to someone else" is your answer.

I think many people will respond to such situations in many different ways.

Sure they will. It is silly to think many wouldn't respond violently. When people have nothing to lose and no one to answer to, more often than not they act in barbaric ways. Sad but true. Most people are a lot more shallow than you give them credit for.

Perhaps. But we are talking about imaginary situations now. Not real ones.
Perhaps you should stick to reality, where the world isn't about to end.

I was simply replying to her bringing up the apocalypse herself.

I sacrifice loads of things in my attempted road to greatness in everything I do.
I just don't have imaginary goals.

I'd call it funny, but I'm not 13. Also, it being completely irrelevant to what I said takes away from the humor.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Slavery, actually in many cases a form of indentured servitude, was used by a specific people, the Jews, 4,000 years ago. They were a migrant people in the process of conquering a homeland.

It was for a specific people, in a specific place, for a specific purpose for a specific time.

Contrary to the uninformed , slavery is not condoned in the New Testament. Paul specifically states that if a slave has an opportunity at freedom, they are to take it.

Nowhere in the bible does it say anything remotely like "hey, don't own human beings as if they are your property". It tells you not to eath shrimp, but it does not tell you not to own people.

The Bible doesn´t have a ¨problem¨ with homosexuality.

Under the new covenant, Christianity, homosexuality outside the Church is not to be judged ( Paul´s direct words) inside the Church it cannot be part of a members lifestyle.

What does that mean "outside the church" and "inside the church"?

It doesn´t preclude them from attending, and participating in classes and services. They cannot be official members.

Haaaa, that's what you mean. They can't be part of your club. But the bible doesn't have a problem with them. They just can't join. Why? Well.... euh? Why again?

Homosexuality is a behavior

It most certainly isn't.

Most true Christians must sacrifice something in their life to follow Christ.

There drops the "true christian" bomb.

For many it is a large sacrifice. No one is compelled to seek the Christian life, it is purely their choice. No one is compelled to sacrifice anything they want to continue pursuing, it is their choice.

Sacrifice what now? That thing that the bible supposedly doesn't have a problem with, but that you nevertheless have to banish from your identity, because with it, which is not a problem, you can't join the club?

Bottom line, true Christianity will adhere to itś core beliefs

Which are.... that being gay is okay?
They why can't they join the club?

This may and does upset some who demand conformity to their own particular ideaś. They can be upset, we will remain steadfast.

Right, right, but the bible at least doesn't have a problem with it, ha?