Choices

[Trailblazer]

So you're not claiming that you know this god exists... only that you there are messengers who claim to know that this god exists?

I cannot speak for Tony but I believe that God exists because of the Messengers. I cannot claim to know God exists because I cannot prove that God exists but I know that God exists because the Messengers of God and everything that surrounds their Revelations including the scriptures constitute proof for me.

 

[Sheldon]

I didnt say word definitions.

You asked what I meant by evidnece, I cited the commonly understood definition in the dictionary, you then said a dictionary was insufficient...is English your first language?

Great. Then use the other option. Humility.

If you dont understand what I am asking for, just ask. Thats humility.

So you can't cite one even one post of mine using the ad hominem you just claimed I usually use?

Of course. YOu can repeat it all you want,

Thanks, but until you grasp the simple concept there are few other options.

if you repeat it a million times, that would not make it seem I said "burden of proof does not lie with the claimant"

Could you cite me claiming you'd said that please, I think I know the answer. Straw man fallacy....

neither will it change the fact that you still have to state your epistemology.

I require that claims be supported by sufficient objective evidence before I believe them, and I already stated this. You however have still not stated what your criteria for disbelief is?

If I claim invisible mermaids exist, and insist you tell me what evidence you'd accept, what is your answer going to be I wonder?

 

[Sheldon]

Do as you choose, no further proof will be given.

Other? You have offered naught but vapid platitudes and bare subjective assertions.

I, or no other person, not even a Messenger from God themselves has ever have any obligation at all to prove to any person the claim of any Messenger.

Catchy, however it is also meaningless, as this is a public debate forum, so get used to people demanding you offer more than bare assertions for your platitudes.

The demonstration is

What followed demonstrated nothing, it was merely a list of unevidenced assertions, they are meaningless in a debate.

In fact I have come to see that it is a personal fault of believers to deliver God's message to those that demand proof, this quote is adequate guidance for the proof you demand.

I've never demanded proof, the word is a misnomer, only objective evidence. The second sentence is a begging the question fallacy, even when not offering evidence you use known fallacies in informal logic.

You constant demands for proof, I turn proves that Faith is a choice of Spirit.

I've never demanded proof, "burden of proof" is a phrase, but proofs are for logic and mathematics. Nor do I demand anything, as this a debate forum. If you want to keep reeling off vapid platitudes without even the pretence of objective evidence that's up to you, and I am entitled to comment on that.

The abyss of hell is our own selves in preference to God.

I don't believe Hell is real, anymore than I believe Mordor is real, and for the same reason.

 

[Sheldon]

I offered many times that Faith is one's own choice, it is also what this OP is exploring, as such I offer a quote one more time that demonstrates that you a oerson can demand proof for eternity, but not be given it until one's own self chooses to look for it.

I have already said that the vapid notion of faith is meaningless, as one can believe literally anything using it. You don't seem to want to address this, but rather talk past it with more vapid platitudes.

This is what God has offered to the Messenger to pass on to us.

I don't believe your claim, since it is again offered without the pretence of evidence that any deity exists let alone handed this message to anyone. Quoting religious texts at an atheist is like much like offering steak to a vegetarian.

There are hundreds of passages in many Holy books that reflect this same advice.

There are many passages in Harry Potter that reflect wizardry, do you believe in wizardry? Would your disbelief wane if I kept quoting the Harry Potter books at you?

The onus of Faith is a choice of each individual.

Faith is useless in determining the validity of any belief or claim, as I've explained, since there is literally nothing one cannot believe using the vapidity of faith. One can choose to believe the moon is made of cheese, and have faith one is correct, that rather tells me all I need to know about choosing faith in anything.

 

[Sheldon]

I cannot claim to know God exists,,,,,,,,,,, but I know that God exists

In the same sentence?

I cannot speak for Tony but I believe that God exists because of the Messengers. I cannot claim to know God exists because I cannot prove that God exists but I know that God exists because the Messengers of God and everything that surrounds their Revelations including the scriptures constitute proof for me.

Dear oh dear...

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Firstly, thanks for the reply and I understand what you offer.

I see that is a quandary we face, if you have time, it is a holy day for Baha'i today and tomorrow, Birth of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, if you wish have, have a read and consider this prayer given by the Bab.

The entire prayer to me sums up our choices in Faith and ends with what we can face, we are tested with the good of this world and the next.

"Vouchsafe unto me, O my God, the full measure of Thy love and Thy good-pleasure, and through the attractions of Thy resplendent light enrapture our hearts, O Thou Who art the Supreme Evidence and the All-Glorified. Send down upon me, as a token of Thy grace, Thy vitalizing breezes, throughout the daytime and in the night season, O Lord of bounty.

No deed have I done, O my God, to merit beholding Thy face, and I know of a certainty that were I to live as long as the world lasts I would fail to accomplish any deed such as to deserve this favor, inasmuch as the station of a servant shall ever fall short of access to Thy holy precincts, unless Thy bounty should reach me and Thy tender mercy pervade me and Thy loving-kindness encompass me.
All praise be unto Thee, O Thou besides Whom there is none other God. Graciously enable me to ascend unto Thee, to be granted the honor of dwelling in Thy nearness and to have communion with Thee alone. No God is there but Thee.

Indeed shouldst Thou desire to confer blessing upon a servant Thou wouldst blot out from the realm of his heart every mention or disposition except Thine Own mention; and shouldst Thou ordain evil for a servant by reason of that which his hands have unjustly wrought before Thy face, Thou wouldst test him with the benefits of this world and of the next that he might become preoccupied therewith and forget Thy remembrance." Bab

That is very interesting to me.

Regards Tony

I'm not sure why you left that quote for me. Wouldn't I need to believe in God for that to be meaningful? Perhaps you can paraphrase and summarize what you think that means and how it is relevant to a skeptic.

Hope you have a happy holiday. We just had a big one here in Mexico last Tuesday, Dia de Muertos. These are from our village:

 

[Sheldon]

I'm not sure why you left that quote for me. Wouldn't I need to believe in God for that to be meaningful?

I know right, it never ceases to surprise me when theists quote their religious tomes at atheists?

 

[Trailblazer]

In the same sentence?

Dear oh dear...

I cannot claim to know God exists because I cannot prove that God exists.

But that does not mean that I do not know that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hope you have a happy holiday. We just had a big one here in Mexico last Tuesday, Dia de Muertos. These are from our village:

I love the Mexican people and I love Mexican food! Back in my early college years when I was studying Spanish I lived in an apartment and I had neighbors who were Mexican and I used to go and talk to them in Spanish. I sure wish I had kept up on my Spanish but now it is long gone.

More recently I used to eat at a Mexican restaurant that is only about five miles from where I live. I liked the waiters, they were so friendly and polite. I like the Mexican culture and the music and the food. That restaurant closed for all but takeout because of Covid but if it opens again I will be going to eat there again. You cannot beat Mexican food, it is the best!

 

[Sheldon]

I cannot claim to know God exists because I cannot prove that God exists.

But that does not mean that I do not know that God exists.

Sorry do you think we won't notice the edit? Here it is again then, verbatim.

I cannot speak for Tony but I believe that God exists because of the Messengers. I cannot claim to know God exists because I cannot prove that God exists but I know that God exists because the Messengers of God and everything that surrounds their Revelations including the scriptures constitute proof for me.

I have found when I inevitably make an error or mistake, it's best to just cough to it straight away, and then try and learn from it, but of course that's up to the individual I guess.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sorry being black and white person, I really can not understand how that can that be so?

If faith is not a choice, how can one show conviction?

Maybe I see where this is coming from, this quote from an agnostic

“Belief is not a matter of choice, but of conviction.”
— Robert G. Ingersoll

So that would make sense, those that have no strong conviction about the existence of one God, would not see they have a choice.

Not sure that is right yet, need to think about this more.

Regards Tony

Sorry being black and white person, I really can not understand how that can that be so?

If faith is not a choice, how can one show conviction?

Maybe I see where this is coming from, this quote from an agnostic

“Belief is not a matter of choice, but of conviction.”
— Robert G. Ingersoll

So that would make sense, those that have no strong conviction about the existence of one God, would not see they have a choice.

Not sure that is right yet, need to think about this more.

Regards Tony

I think that some of this may be misunderstanding, as English is evidently not your first langauge. So let's slow down and try to iron this out. You said, "Then we might be able to agree that the strongest conviction, is the one made of one's own personal choice?"

What I said was that belief is NOT a choice. You can change the word belief to personal conviction if you want, and I would say that personal conviction is not a choice. I would agree with your quote from Ingersoll.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry do you think we won't notice the edit? Here it is again then, verbatim.

I have found when I inevitably make an error or mistake, it's best to just cough to it straight away, and then try and learn from it, but of course that's up to the individual I guess.

I have found when I inevitably make an error or mistake, it's best to just cough to it straight away, and then try and learn from it, but of course that's up to the individual I guess.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't believe Hell is real, anymore than I believe Mordor is real, and for the same reason.

Belief is a choice, is it not? I do not have any issue with you or anyone that makes different choices than I have done.

I have to live with my choices, I just hope I can hurt less people with them in the future, than I may have done in the past.

Hopefully the world of men and women can have the same motivation.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think that some of this may be misunderstanding, as English is evidently not your first langauge. So let's slow down and try to iron this out. You said, "Then we might be able to agree that the strongest conviction, is the one made of one's own personal choice?"

What I said was that belief is NOT a choice. You can change the word belief to personal conviction if you want, and I would say that personal conviction is not a choice. I would agree with your quote from Ingersoll.

OK if you agree with Ingersoll, then I do disagree.

I answered yes and no to poll as I see many do not see their is no choice in belief, but that may just reflect my own mindset.

So can I ask a question that will give me an idea how you see it compared to how I see it.

Jesus said in the Bible,

Matthew 16:24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me".

So to take up that offer, is it conviction or choice?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not sure why you left that quote for me. Wouldn't I need to believe in God for that to be meaningful? Perhaps you can paraphrase and summarize what you think that means and how it is relevant to a skeptic.

Hope you have a happy holiday. We just had a big one here in Mexico last Tuesday, Dia de Muertos. These are from our village:

I much prefer to celebrate the remembrance of those that have passed on.

I can not be sad for them, but acknowledge many may be sad in that loss.

The quote, to me, offers that we are only in control of our own thoughts and actions and cannot control the destiny of humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

I have found when I inevitably make an error or mistake, it's best to just cough to it straight away, and then try and learn from it, but of course that's up to the individual I guess.

I have found when I inevitably make an error or mistake, it's best to just cough to it straight away, and then try and learn from it, but of course that's up to the individual I guess.

1. Why have just posted my own post back to me verbatim?
2. Why did you not admit your error then, as can plainly be seen above in the contradiction I highlighted. Instead offering an edited version of the post?

 

[rational experiences]

Choice. Humans can choose if we are a spiritual human or a destroyer human.

By natural laws. In the beginning the eternal unconditional loving being caused change

The life lesson.

We inherited life on behalf of the eternal self. Karmic in full knowledge the eternal had caused change of origin form. Life forever. No change no death.

Reality a life of pain and suffering. Inherited. Would you rather be in the eternal spirit origin not suffering?

Yes says consciousness

The first of God that a human changed from. The eternal being no longer eternal by form. Now a human.

So in fact are a type of God that was not universal satanic history.

God evolving back from its destroyed losses. Mass as energies formation by evolution.

So we tell the story to our best human capability.

Our life lesson is to do as little change as possible for no more suffering from loss. As identified by our highest historic self wisdom.

So you ask a human how do you know.

The truth I researched spirituality myself as the condition.

The same way a liar researched science just as the conditions science.

Egotist says...everything is science.

Human in experience said no you lied destroyer self.

A pretty basic self aware equal natural human advice.

Are you of spiritual consciousness or a destroyer the question.

 

[Trailblazer]

1. Why have just posted my own post back to me verbatim?
2. Why did you not admit your error then, as can plainly be seen above in the contradiction I highlighted. Instead offering an edited version of the post?

Because there is no contradiction so I made no error. You made the error in thinking there was a contradiction.
Explain why there was a contradiction or stop saying it.

 

[firedragon]

You asked what I meant by evidnece,

Does that mean scientific facts, scientific evidence, empirical evidence as an empiricist, or rational proofs, philosophical arguments, logical arguments?

 

[firedragon]

I require that claims be supported by sufficient objective evidence before I believe them,

Does that mean scientific facts, scientific evidence, empirical evidence as an empiricist, or rational proofs, philosophical arguments, logical arguments?