Choices

[idea]

I joined astronomers and looked through telescopes at the stars tonight. A ring nebula, death and birth so far away on time scales we cannot really comprehend. The existence of intelligence, consciousness, it is a strange thing to dream, remember, and hope. Why do we want anything? What survives? It feels like we will be mixed together and pulled back apart. We are already a mixture of what has gone before, the information of each moment eternally preserved.
I do not feel alone, we are all connected, of the same matter and energy, the same destination. Goodnight and blessings dancing sunbeams, bits of energy, splashes of force and drops of dew.

 

[syo]

My faith is my choice.

 

[Ponder This]

I'm sorry but that is errant nonsense, you can speak for yourself, but you don't get to tell others who see through the vapid nature of faith, that it leads to despair?

That last platitude is an utterly meaningless deepity.

There is literally nothing one cannot believe using the vapid bias of faith, it is therefore objectively useless in determining the validity of a belief.

Faith doesn't validate beliefs, nor does doubt.

 

[Ponder This]

responding to a post that claimed my lack of faith could only lead to despair

Interesting paraphrase.

But if you were to doubt your spouse constantly, how do you think this would affect your relationship? More Hopeful or More Despairing?

As a believer I've always been baffled by the concept of 'choosing to believe'. For me to believe that something is true I require evidence. If such evidence is lacking I can't simply 'choose to believe' just because I'd like it to be true. There are some religions that have more curb appeal than my religion and offer better guarantees but I cannot just believe them because I might want to.

In the story of King Lear, he demands evidence of his daughters in the form of demonstrations to prove that they love him. Alas, King Lear is a tragic figure.

 

[joelr]

The purpose of this OP is to explore our Choice of Faith, is it a choice, is it not?

I have read in other OP's on RF where people say it was not a choice, that their Faith was a natural process that required no choices.

To an extent I agree, as I see God has created us all in the same image, with the same potential of Spirtual Virtue.

On the other hand I see we need education to find that potential and that if we go it alone thinking we do not have a choice, then it may be we miss many choices that are available. My guess is, as I am yet to do so, is that if I searched all the Holy Books, we would find the advice, that to embrace faith, one must make a choice between what was offered by God, over preference to ones own ways. I do know the Bible offers that as a choice to be 'Born Again' from the flesh to the spirit.

As a Baha'i there is clear guidance as to how God offers it is a choice, this is one such passage.

"O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine -- words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 327-328

Does your Faith have such guidance?

Is a faith and all we do in that faith based in choices we have made?

Such guidance? Silly metaphors with no evidence? This "faith" is believing obvious fiction without evidence for emotional reasons. Except you don't need to believe false stories about Gods to live a spiritual life. Morals and compassion and so on can be learned in many ways without believing every story you read is literally true.

But yes, all revelatory cults have this same "guidance". Mormon revelations are similar except they also say other religions are definitely going to hell. Islam says the same. So clearly it's possible to have these elaborate revelations written down to convince members but what's being said is just words made up by people.
People who say it wasn't a choice to have faith were likely emotionally primed to believe in some supernatural cult. Racist groups also have faith they are superior. SO do radical violent religious groups. Faith is not a pathway to truth.


"
Personal revelation Joseph Smith



14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the awoods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a bbeautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to cpray dvocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was aseized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick bdarkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to acall upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I bsaw two cPersonages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My fBeloved gSon. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the cadversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the dopposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

Some preachers and other professors of religion reject the account of the First Vision—Persecution is heaped upon Joseph Smith—He testifies of the reality of the vision. (Verses 21–26.)

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as avisions or brevelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.

Joseph Smith—History 1

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Such guidance? Silly metaphors with no evidence? This "faith" is believing obvious fiction without evidence for emotional reasons. Except you don't need to believe false stories about Gods to live a spiritual life. Morals and compassion and so on can be learned in many ways without believing every story you read is literally true.

But yes, all revelatory cults have this same "guidance". Mormon revelations are similar except they also say other religions are definitely going to hell. Islam says the same. So clearly it's possible to have these elaborate revelations written down to convince members but what's being said is just words made up by people.
People who say it wasn't a choice to have faith were likely emotionally primed to believe in some supernatural cult. Racist groups also have faith they are superior. SO do radical violent religious groups. Faith is not a pathway to truth.


"
Personal revelation Joseph Smith



14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the awoods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a bbeautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to cpray dvocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was aseized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick bdarkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to acall upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I bsaw two cPersonages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My fBeloved gSon. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the cadversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the dopposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

Some preachers and other professors of religion reject the account of the First Vision—Persecution is heaped upon Joseph Smith—He testifies of the reality of the vision. (Verses 21–26.)

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as avisions or brevelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.

Joseph Smith—History 1

So do you see it is a choice, just because the way you started, I chose not to read your post.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

People who say it wasn't a choice to have faith were likely emotionally primed to believe in some supernatural cult. Racist groups also have faith they are superior. SO do radical violent religious groups. Faith is not a pathway to truth.

Maybe you should study the subject before making such propositions with out any research whatsoever. Maybe you have been directed by a cult like you seem to assert all others to be in to believe falsehood arbitrarily created by someone or you yourself is creating your own cult by creating falsehood arbitrarily.

What do you think is the correct one? What study and research can you quote?

 

[Sheldon]

Because there is no contradiction so I made no error.

I cannot speak for Tony but I believe that God exists because of the Messengers. I cannot claim to know God exists because I cannot prove that God exists but I know that God exists because the Messengers of God and everything that surrounds their Revelations including the scriptures constitute proof for me.

 

[Sheldon]

Faith doesn't validate beliefs, nor does doubt.

Exactly my point, faith cannot validate beliefs.

 

[Sheldon]

Interesting paraphrase.

But if you were to doubt your spouse constantly, how do you think this would affect your relationship? More Hopeful or More Despairing?

I'd say that was a more interesting representation of what you said. Changing doubt in a deity no one can demsonrate any objective evidence is even possible, let alone real. to doubting a spouse.

You also seem to be using "doubt" as a positive assertion here, when it is not. Atheism is the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, nothing more. Though of course an atheist is free to go further, but I personally do not. My lack of faith or belief in deities is not more significant to me than my lack of belief in mermaids, I see no evidence it carries any more risk either, nor does it cause me any despair.

I'd rather face reality, than use the comfort blanket of faith. What if you trusted your spouse and they betrayed you? Your faith in them was misplaced, so your example seems doubly flawed.

 

[Sheldon]

In the story of King Lear, he demands evidence of his daughters in the form of demonstrations to prove that they love him. Alas, King Lear is a tragic figure.

A fictional character offered as a negative stereotype is not a very compelling argument.

 

[Sheldon]

Personal revelation Joseph Smith

A convicted conman's dodgy dealings are hardly more compelling than blind faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

just because the way you started, I chose not to read your post.

Regards Tony

I am doing that a lot these days, feels good.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know that God exists but I do not claim that God exists because I cannot prove that God exists.
Everything that a person knows cannot be proven to others.

P.S. I don't care how it was worded yesterday or the day before because humans make mistakes since humans are fallible. Only God is infallible so God makes no mistakes. That is not a claim, it is a belief. I do not claim that God exists because I cannot prove that God exists. Simple as pie.

Happy Trails

 

[Sheldon]

I don't care how it was worded yesterday or the day before because humans make mistakes

I made no error.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you make you feel better to point out other people's mistakes have at it.
I wonder why you have the need to do that constantly.
Pointing out other people's mistakes is not in accordance with my beliefs.
Looking at out own faults is what we are enjoined to do.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you make you feel better to point out other people's mistakes have at it.
I wonder why you have the need to do that constantly.
Pointing out other people's mistake is not in accordance with my beliefs.
Looking at out own faults is what we are enjoined to do.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

It is indeed a regettable choice to find fault with others and even worse backbite.

It is also a reason my wife and I do not go out much now, most of the conversations quickly pull a knife on a person that is not there.

I have found it a quandary though, if I point out the obvious, I ask myself am I actually doing the same thing? So over the last year or so, I have been trying to let all that go, sometimes I win othertimes my self gets the better of me again.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

It is indeed a regettable choice to find fault with others and even worse backbite.

It is also a reason my wife and I do not go out much now, most of the conversations quickly pull a knife on a person that is not there.

I have found it a quandary though, if I point out the obvious, I ask myself am I actually doing the same thing? So over the last year or so, I have been trying to let all that go, sometimes I win othertimes my self gets the better of me again.

Regards Tony

Sheldon said:

Trailblazer said: I don't care how it was worded yesterday or the day before because humans make

Trailblazer said: I made no error.

Do you see how @Sheldon cleverly posted what I had said in the wrong chronological order?
Below is the correct chronological order.

Trailblazer said: I made no error.
#198 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 8:09 PM

Trailblazer said: I don't care how it was worded yesterday or the day before because humans make mistakes
#214 Trailblazer, Today at 11:59 AM

Please note that even after I admitted I made an error, that was not good enough for @Sheldon. He had to point out what I had said before.

Do you ever wonder why people magnify the faults of others? I don't, since Baha'u'llah explained it.

44. O Companion of My Throne!

Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep. Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed. Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom forevermore.

The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

 

[joelr]

So do you see it is a choice, just because the way you started, I chose not to read your post.

Regards Tony

If you didn't read my post my would you say I see it as a choice?
What people with evidence and good arguments do when they see descriptions they don't like is explain what they think it isn't true. Clearly you don't have any of this. So my accusations about silly metaphors remains unchallenged.

 

[joelr]

A convicted conman's dodgy dealings are hardly more compelling than blind faith.

True, I'm showing that all revelatory religions have elaborate tales and testimony of their messages from God. Not just Bahai. Even known conmen. But technically the Bahai messenger is also a conman.