Choices

[Trailblazer]

Some people have to believe in God, and they don't have a choice (given what had happened to them).

Yeah, I also have to believe, although I have to believe for different reasons than you do.

 

[CG Didymus]

The whole bible unfolds as a choice of faith.

So why is that not seen as choice. Those that followed Abraham had to then embrace Moses and in turn thay had to embarce Jesus then One had to accept Muhammad.

Those that say it is not a choice continue as they were. Those that see it does becomes a choice, undertake a search and make a choice to change.

The history is full of those choices of Faith.

Regards Tony

And where in there does Krishna and the many incarnations of Vishnu, along with Buddha and Zoroaster fit in?

But let's again look at the choice a Jew was given during the Inquisition?

In 1391, anti-Jewish massacres swept Spain, where Jews were given the choice of converting to Christianity or being murdered. Some 20,000 Spanish Jews became Christians during this time period and many more continued to convert throughout the 1400s under duress.​

And what were those Jews expected to believe? A Christianity that not only believed that Jesus was the Messiah but also God. What choice would you have made?

 

[CG Didymus]

I never ask for proof, only objective evidence, and neither of those is objective evidence, they amount to nothing more than subjective claims.

And, although lots of people don't believe this stuff really happened, the NT and Hebrew Bible is filled with "proofs" of God. He blew up Sodom and Gomorrah. Knocked down the walls of Jericho so that Joshua and his men could come in and kill every man, woman and child that lived there. In the NT, God spoke from heaven a couple of times. He sent angels that appeared and gave direct messages to people that were not "manifestations". And then Jesus healing people and raising the dead through the power of God. If I saw stuff like that happening, I might believe that God is real... But we don't. All we have is stories about things like that happening. And even Baha'i doubt they really happened.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is what God offers and that is what the world is balanced upon. Trustworthiness and Truthfulness.

They are the greatest choices we all can make.

Regards Tony

Considering there are so many different religious beliefs, some people don't trust the truthfulness of what religious people and their Scriptures say. To believe what God "offers" in one in some ways means a person has to not believe what is offered in another. Like to accept the Baha'i Faith a person is expected to not believed in a literal, physical resurrection of Jesus nor believe in any religion that believes in reincarnation. Which for some, isn't a problem. For others it is. So those people choose not to believe what the Baha'i Faith offers.

 

[rational experiences]

Man's choice.

To design science.

Science the state did not exist.

Natural however did exist.

Status God created science.

O earths radiation was released.

Cooled radiation. Invisible. Sciences man caused beginnings.

Life began he said from God releasing radiation. The life of science. His entity.

Who is life scientist?

Consciousness says my holy human mother.

What name did you give sciences God beginning? Mother space radiating zero. The life of science.

So you encoded God science yourselves as not lifes natural beginning but mother of science beginnings and lied.

As life did not begin with science.

Now earths heavens has accumulated so much radiation that it cannot remain cooled. So massive amounts of particles built up in our heavens.

As God had not been releasing any quanta of radiation by definition beginning..

The sun had put its radiation mass into earths body. Earth sealed off so the radiation cooled inside of earth. Held metal.

You cannot determine that reality as the flooded earth water pressure owned the origin seal as God.

Was the teaching. Gods stone ark the seal only. Life's protection.

Science only a human owned want of science by design human began science the state yourselves.

No longer does science own science beginnings as you introduced AI also as the designer of causes. Into our heavenly body.

By science because of science. Why you relate science to the alien effect as you caused it.

In the beginning however science was activated to God. Proving you never controlled God yourselves but you certainly knew science activated mother God beginnings maths irradiation. From the sealed earth.

Now it is out of control science causes.

How to reading with a human theist. Isn't space natural? Isn't all the created bodies natural mass?

What science of humans owns natural mass,?

The God human scientist on planet earth quotes I own planet earths mass in science only.

Then possessed says hence science owns mass. Yet mass is natural in its own presence. Everywhere.

Egotism said hear the words your science brother expresses that is an outright lie.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

God won't let me tell you if my belief in God is by choice or was forced by necessity. The reason is that some would be prideful and brag about their close relationship to God. God doesn't like bragging. God doesn't want one person to seem they have special power or special closeness to His power. They might be worshiped if people found out, and God says that only He should be worshiped (doesn't want to share power).

Some people have to believe in God, and they don't have a choice (given what had happened to them).

I see it is a great choice to accept faith in all humility, knowing that it is only God that gives us that choice.

I agree many people are forced to accept something that was not a choice.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

The context of course is that you were asked to demonstrate objective evidence for the beliefs / claims.

A typical atheist. For one thing there is so much evidence it cannot be encapsulated here. You would have to investigate for yourself. There are ample sources on the internet for you to investigate.

The Baháʼí Faith - Home

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Bahaipedia

Bahá'í Library Online

https://bahaiteachings.org/

Another aspect of this is that the claim by it's very nature cannot be wholly objective.

 

[Trailblazer]

A typical atheist. For one thing there is so much evidence it cannot be encapsulated here. You would have to investigate for yourself. There are ample sources on the internet for you to investigate.

The Baháʼí Faith - Home

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Bahaipedia

Bahá'í Library Online

BahaiTeachings.org - Personal perspectives inspired by Baha'i teachings

Another aspect of this is that the claim by it's very nature cannot be wholly objective.

That is not what atheists consider evidence. They want some other kind of evidence they call objective evidence.

 

[Truthseeker]

That is not what atheists consider evidence. They want some other kind of evidence they call objective evidence.

Yes, I know. They want it to be all objective evidence, like science.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Considering there are so many different religious beliefs, some people don't trust the truthfulness of what religious people and their Scriptures say. To believe what God "offers" in one in some ways means a person has to not believe what is offered in another. Like to accept the Baha'i Faith a person is expected to not believed in a literal, physical resurrection of Jesus nor believe in any religion that believes in reincarnation. Which for some, isn't a problem. For others it is. So those people choose not to believe what the Baha'i Faith offers.

That indeed sums up our choices CG.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I know. They want it to be all objective evidence, like science.

To equate religion with science and expect the same kind of evidence for religion as we have for science is the fallacy of false equivalence.

 

[rational experiences]

Science itself says I know that space is the place where change emerged to own a reaction to pre existing substance.

Law in machine reaction to activate a space moment to convert mass or gas. Never owning our atmosphere as an experimental laboratory inside a machine thesis.

And never owned origin and never will.

Said big bang conversion moment evolution of change.

Is no different from a human status saying origin substance released was from eternal and all it caused was its own body burnt. The conversion itself.

Separated from the main body that holds the destroyed part in its womb.

That we only came out of the eternal once space filled back in by gas with water mass volume on planet gods earth spatial plane.

In my life it is a pretty basic truthful explanation...humans were not invented by a man's science thesis for a machine reaction.

The reason to theory converting.

 

[Sheldon]

And, although lots of people don't believe this stuff really happened, the NT and Hebrew Bible is filled with "proofs" of God. He blew up Sodom and Gomorrah. Knocked down the walls of Jericho so that Joshua and his men could come in and kill every man, woman and child that lived there. In the NT, God spoke from heaven a couple of times. He sent angels that appeared and gave direct messages to people that were not "manifestations". And then Jesus healing people and raising the dead through the power of God. If I saw stuff like that happening, I might believe that God is real... But we don't. All we have is stories about things like that happening. And even Baha'i doubt they really happened.

Those are all bare claims, not evidence. You don't seem to know the difference.

 

[rational experiences]

Those are all bare claims, not evidence. You don't seem to know the difference.

If you ask did the ground water mass shift as evidence?

Does the UFO be witnessed sucking up shifting water mass today?

Yes says science.

Is ground to atmosphere natural evaporation existing as a natural heavens law not the UFO?

Yes.

Men of science lied.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. if I searched all the Holy Books, we would find the advice, ..
"O My servants! .. I have brought forth and revealed .. summoned the Maids of Heaven .. words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

I do not need any advice. And again, the Maids of Heaven. The passage reeks of arrogance. We are not uneducated Iranians of 19th Century.
AND i HATE PEOPLE AND EVEN ANY GOD IF HE WOULD DARE TO CALL ME AS "HIS SERVANT". ARE THERE FOOLISH PEOPLE WITH SUCH BLOATED EGO?

 

[CG Didymus]

A typical atheist. For one thing there is so much evidence it cannot be encapsulated here. You would have to investigate for yourself. There are ample sources on the internet for you to investigate.

The Baháʼí Faith - Home

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Bahaipedia

Bahá'í Library Online

BahaiTeachings.org - Personal perspectives inspired by Baha'i teachings

Another aspect of this is that the claim by it's very nature cannot be wholly objective.

The Baha'i Faith changes things a bit. But hey, like Atheists, don't believe in the God of the Fundamental/Evangelical Christians. The 6 day creation story? No. The flood? No. Inherited sin or sin nature from Adam? No. Jesus being God and coming back to life and ascending into the sky? No.

Those Christians do have what they believe is evidence for a flood and a young Earth, but do Atheists and Baha'is accept it? No. And both Baha'is and Atheists believe in evolution. So why make it such a big deal that they don't believe in the unknowable, invisible, unprovable God of the Baha'is? I think they have a justifiable mistrust of what religions claim to be true. And, since Baha'is believe science and religion must go hand and hand, I think it is smart of them expect and demand more substantial proof. If there is no "objective" proof of God, then why expect them to believe it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not need any advice. And again, the Maids of Heaven. The passage reeks of arrogance. We are not uneducated Iranians of 19th Century.
AND i HATE PEOPLE AND EVEN ANY GOD IF HE WOULD DARE TO CALL ME AS "HIS SERVANT". ARE THERE FOOLISH PEOPLE WITH SUCH BLOATED EGO?

At least we Love you, sounds like you need a hug, or how about a coffee, or tea and a chat about life and hopes for the future?

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

The purpose of this OP is to explore our Choice of Faith, is it a choice, is it not?

I have read in other OP's on RF where people say it was not a choice, that their Faith was a natural process that required no choices.

To an extent I agree, as I see God has created us all in the same image, with the same potential of Spirtual Virtue.

On the other hand I see we need education to find that potential and that if we go it alone thinking we do not have a choice, then it may be we miss many choices that are available. My guess is, as I am yet to do so, is that if I searched all the Holy Books, we would find the advice, that to embrace faith, one must make a choice between what was offered by God, over preference to ones own ways. I do know the Bible offers that as a choice to be 'Born Again' from the flesh to the spirit.

As a Baha'i there is clear guidance as to how God offers it is a choice, this is one such passage.

"O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine -- words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 327-328

Does your Faith have such guidance?

Is a faith and all we do in that faith based in choices we have made?

And/Or

Can we have a faith without making choices?

So all the best and it will be interesting to ponder the replies people offer.

Regards Tony

Most people's faith is arrived at through childhood indoctrination, followed by reinforcement through family and community. This is supported by the fact that the vast majority of religionists follow the faith they were born into.
Of course, many of them claim that they have since researched every other faith and guess what - by massive coincidence the faith that their research shows to make the "most sense" just happens to be the one they were born and raised in. Whoda thunkit?

BTW, we cannot "choose" what we believe. Belief in an unconscious response to a variety of external and internal factors.

 

[KWED]

I know many faiths have an age of maturity where it comes a time to make that choice in faith, so there is that to consider.

As Aristotle said "Give me the boy until he is seven and I will show you the man".
By the time it is time to make a "choice", that choice has already been determined.

 

[CG Didymus]

To equate religion with science and expect the same kind of evidence for religion as we have for science is the fallacy of false equivalence.

I think it's more like believing in space aliens. Some people see the "proof"... the "evidence" and believe it. Some have seen them and say they've been on their space ships. You might believe them because the Baha'i Faith says there is life on other worlds. But, is there any objective evidence? Some people say there is. That there is a body of an alien and pieces of a crashed flying saucer, but do we trust the sources of those reports?

If God is real, there should be objective evidence. You say "no". God is completely unknowable and undetectable, then why expect an Atheist to believe that God is real? And why would it matter? For most of the time people have been on Earth they have believed in misconceptions of God. Wouldn't have been the wise thing to do to question the reality of a Sun God or the God of Fertility? Or that Jesus is God? Or Krishna is the incarnation of a God? But people believed those things. And now, even the Baha'is tell us all those concepts of who God is were wrong? If you want to keep arguing with Atheists, go ahead, but do you really think things will turn out different?