Christ According To The Mormons

[Katzpur]

Under axioms which are accepted by Catholics, that simply doesn't make sense.

That's fine. Under axioms which are accepted by Latter-day Saints, the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet one is not three and three are not one doesn't make sense either. Consequently, I guess we'll all just have to reconcile ourselves to being bafflied by the other's beliefs.

 

[TrueBlue2]

Here is the unbridgeable gulf between Catholicism and Mormonism. To Catholics, the Divine is that which is logically necessary...that is, God is a being who cannot not exist. Such a being must be immutable, containing its own perfection a priori, without the capacity for any kind of change, particularly a change which results in greater power. We must propose the existence of such a being as the explanatory cause for all things which are created.

Your response is a bit complicated Francine. Still, I think the complexity for you is encompassed in your perception of the 'trinity.' I too see God as being unchangeable. It would be a bit scary praying to a supreme being who might not be in a state of perfection. But when you look at the 'Godhead' as being three distinct and separate individuals, and not as 'three in one' (which really is incomprehensible) it makes a lot more sense. Luke also says that Christ "grew in wisdom, and in stature, and in favor with God and man."

 

[nutshell]

We don't need to know HOW, we need to know WHO and WHY.

Your post answers the HOW.

 

[Francine]

Luke also says that Christ "grew in wisdom, and in stature, and in favor with God and man."

He was able to do this because God the Son was in union with a human body and soul that was capable of growth, pain, and death. Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!

 

[TrueBlue2]

He was able to do this because God the Son was in union with a human body and soul that was capable of growth, pain, and death. Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!

I accept this as scripture Francine. It's just that I see it as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Jesus, being a part of the Godhead, condescended and agreed to come to this earth, to take on a human body, and offered himself as a sacrifice to redeem men from death, and the consequences of the fall of Adam.

Francine, I saw a post from you (I probably couldn't find it now) in which you were speaking of the signs of the times before Christ comes again. And, I remember being surprised at your statement that Christ spoke of an apostasy. Can you explain what led you to that, and what your thinking is on it?

 

[Francine]

Francine, I saw a post from you (I probably couldn't find it now) in which you were speaking of the signs of the times before Christ comes again. And, I remember being surprised at your statement that Christ spoke of an apostasy. Can you explain what led you to that, and what your thinking is on it?

I was led to that statement by scripture.

2Thes.2: [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

This is speaking of the person known as the Antichrist, who will be a great enemy of the Church. He will arise in a time of a great "falling away" of many of the faithful from the Church, and he will hunt down the remnant who remain. This could refer to the leader of a possible Islamic Union, headed by a new Caliph. This could also refer only to the Old World, where the great Cathedrals stand empty while mosques go up in every neighborhood.

 

[DeepShadow]

You may worship only 1 God but am I incorrect in saying that you beleive in multiple Gods? The Father a God, the Son a God, the Holy spirit a God, Hence Polytheism.

I already quoted the Book of Mormon to the contrary. Why are you ignoring such a direct refutation?

The Book of Mormon says that we worship "Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Ghost, which is ONE ETERNAL GOD." (emphasis mine)

So where in that do you see polytheism?!

 

[Francine]

I already quoted the Book of Mormon to the contrary. Why are you ignoring such a direct refutation?

The Book of Mormon says that we worship "Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Ghost, which is ONE ETERNAL GOD." (emphasis mine)

So where in that do you see polytheism?!

The BoM is more Christian than Mormon, that's why I permit a copy of it to exist within my dwelling place. But good luck trying to give me a D&C, whether the book version or the abortion practice.

 

[DeepShadow]

The D&C also says they are One Eternal God.

Again, where is the polytheism?

 

[Francine]

The D&C also says they are One Eternal God.

Again, where is the polytheism?

I dunno. Good luck and God bless. I've already discovered that Mormons and Catholics don't mean the same thing when they speak of Divinity.

 

[DeepShadow]

Of course, but that's no cause to say we are polytheistic. That's the same argument used against Trinitarians by Muslims.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

The D&C also says they are One Eternal God.

Again, where is the polytheism?

I think I might actually have an answer here, but please correct me if I explain this wrong or go to far off base. LDS believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are each divine in nature. Not three seperate Gods, but each having the quality of divinity which is God-like. That is how they kinda come together as one god. They work together as the God Head and are all divine. Just because a being has divinity does not make the being "God," it is simply a God-like quality. Hence one God.

I believe I am using the right term -divinity. But I am actually going to try and use Hinduisms concept of divinity as an example. They have many idols/ dieties but they are monotheistic. They believe there is innately divinity in everyone, and that everyone and everything is one with "Brahman"/ God. So.... think of the "substance" of God and existance to be paint. Paint can make skies, earth, animals, people. All different, but all having the same substance and quality. So everything is divine... They have many dieties, but they believe them to all be made of the same substance, along with all of existance, which is the same substance as God. Everyone is not God, but God is in everyone... i.e. divinity.

This is I think.... similar to the idea of the God Head having three divine beings, but yet only one God... which could be considered interchangeably One, between the three, yet three seperate individuals.

{{cringe}}don't paddle too hard....

 

[Katzpur]

I think I might actually have an answer here, but please correct me if I explain this wrong or go to far off base. LDS believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are each divine in nature. Not three seperate Gods, but each having the quality of divinity which is God-like. That is how they kinda come together as one god. They work together as the God Head and are all divine. Just because a being has divinity does not make the being "God," it is simply a God-like quality. Hence one God.

I believe I am using the right term -divinity. But I am actually going to try and use Hinduisms concept of divinity as an example. They have many idols/ dieties but they are monotheistic. They believe there is innately divinity in everyone, and that everyone and everything is one with "Brahman"/ God. So.... think of the "substance" of God and existance to be paint. Paint can make skies, earth, animals, people. All different, but all having the same substance and quality. So everything is divine... They have many dieties, but they believe them to all be made of the same substance, along with all of existance, which is the same substance as God. Everyone is not God, but God is in everyone... i.e. divinity.

This is I think.... similar to the idea of the God Head having three divine beings, but yet only one God... which could be considered interchangeably One, between the three, yet three seperate individuals.

{{cringe}}don't paddle too hard....

That sounds okay, up to a point, Tigeress. But I cringe every time I hear God referred to as a substance. I could go along with the word "nature," but to me, the word "substance" describes the stuff something is made of, its physical make-up. That's more or less the basis of our quibble with the Christian Creeds.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

That sounds okay, up to a point, Tigeress. But I cringe every time I hear God referred to as a substance. I could go along with the word "nature," but to me, the word "substance" describes the stuff something is made of, its physical make-up.

Well then... substance when you are speaking from hinduisms view of divinity, and nature when speaking from our perspective then I was just using Hinduism as a more extreme example of the similar concept. Everyone thinks they are polytheistic too, and their understanding is definately harder for most to understand than ours I think.

That's more or less the basis of our quibble with the Christian Creeds.

Oh... I didn't know that Just learned something new.

 

[athanasius]

Of course, but that's no cause to say we are polytheistic. That's the same argument used against Trinitarians by Muslims.

Not really. Trinitarian theology believes and teaches that there is only One God. Period. You beleive that there is several Gods but worship only 3 of them. Believing in more than one God is polytheism.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Not really. Trinitarian theology believes and teaches that there is only One God. Period. You beleive that there is several Gods but worship only 3 of them. Believing in more than one God is polytheism.

Where did you get this idea? Quotes please? I can see where there might be a misunderstanding regarding our views on the God Head and divinity, but the rest of that is just way out there. We covered this topic in my World Religions class a few semesters ago. You know, which is unbiased and academic. Ask any religion professor, or look in any creditable academic religious text. You will see that the scholars have labeled mormonism as monotheistic, with an understanding of divinity like what I explained. It comes straight from academic, theological fact, versus manipulated opinions and personal translations and such. This is a different understanding of a similar concept of your own that technically remains monotheistic. "God" and "godliness" are two different things like, "The Divine," and "divinity."

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Here is a creditable reference to back me up, at least somewhat. I am still trying to find one a teeny bit more academic though... as this one could be considered biased maybe.

Polytheism - FAIRMormon

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

I think I have it all clarified down to a simple statement in my head... God would be "The Divine," Jesus and the Holy Ghost are seperate beings with divine nature, but not gods themselves. Boo Yaw! ....i gots ta work on my daggum wordiness!!...

 

[athanasius]

Where did you get this idea? Quotes please? I can see where there might be a misunderstanding regarding our views on the God Head and divinity, but the rest of that is just way out there. We covered this topic in my World Religions class a few semesters ago. You know, which is unbiased and academic. Ask any religion professor, or look in any creditable academic religious text. You will see that the scholars have labeled mormonism as monotheistic, with an understanding of divinity like what I explained. It comes straight from academic, theological fact, versus manipulated opinions and personal translations and such. This is a different understanding of a similar concept of your own that technically remains monotheistic. "God" and "godliness" are two different things like, "The Divine," and "divinity."

Ahh world religions, what a class! Unbiased and academic? All schools have some biases. I also took courses on world religions in secular college. My secular professor made it clear that they were polytheistic. And one of my assignments was to go to a Mormon worship service and interview their elders. The elders made it clear to me that they believe in the plurality of Gods. I had a discussion with them and with one on this board that discussed God the father and his supposed, father. This is polythiesm. Sorry.

 

[nutshell]

athanius...we know a hell of a lot more about our teachings and beliefs than you do.