Christ Has returned, what should have we looked for?

[TransmutingSoul]

Where do you keep finding this stuff? First you come out with a flaking looking family tree and now this? But how official is this? Does it have the UHU stamp of authority on it? But, like I asked in another post, if we don't even have originals of the NT, how can we be sure these records are accurate? In fact, don't Baha'i question the authenticity of the NT? And only vouch for verses that Baha'u'llah and the others said were authoritative? So now I'm suppose to believe some research found genealogies that they can connect all the way back to David? What next? A connection to Buddha and Krishna?

As we have said Baha'u'llah has Fulfilled all Prophecy as such the links are there.

Do you not think the Muslims would not have tried this argument as well? The fact is they have and there could be records written by the early believers, but a lot of their words are still in their native tongue, I can not search them. I know of charts that are very comprehensive, but the Covenant Breakers have put them up and I will not re-post them as I know they contain errors.

The Bible contains the Word of God and fulfills its purpose in the acceptance of Christ and the recognition of fulfilled Prophecy. Thus the purpose of the Bible had been 100% met.

Rest assured the Charts will be available when and if it becomes a Global Barrier. But like all proof there is an element that will not accept it, after all we still have many people saying man is yet to walk on the moon and the earth is flat, go figure!

Again it comes back to have we determine yet if Baha'u'llah tells nothing but the Truth?

Mírzá Abu'l-Fadl was such a Scholar, - Mírzá Abu'l-Fadl - Wikipedia - he would have something written on this subject. He was a very knowledgeable Muslim before accepting Baha'u'llah, thus would have used this to disprove Baha'u'llah. You should read the story of His conversion, it is at this link. He never actually met Baha'u'llah in Person. His year of Birth interesting.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Where do you keep finding this stuff?

Do you not think the Muslims would not have tried this argument as well? The fact is they have and there could be records written by the early believers, but a lot of their words are still in their native tongue

Sharh-i-Shajarih Namih-i-Mubarakih (Description of the geneology of Baha'u'llah). Bombay: Matba`-i Mustafa'i, 1321/1904. Reprinted, East Lansing, Mi.: H-Bahai, 2006. Arabic and Persian Baha'i Texts by Mirza Abu'l-Fadl Gulpaygani

Note: A treatise that Gulpaygani wrote on the genealogy of Baha'u'llah was confiscated when he was arrested in Tehran 1882 and thus lost, but years later a Baha'i wrote to `Abdu'l-Baha asking about this question and `Abdu'l-Baha referred him to Gulpaygani, who wrote a second, shorter treatise, tracing Baha'u'llah's ancestry to the last Sasanian king, Yazdigird III, a document that was of great importance in the conversion of the Zoroastrians.

Sen McGlinn would be able to answer this question.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

It's kind of meaningless to say Muhammad, Christ, Baha'u'llah did not die, because you mean spiritually. And everyone lives on spiritually according to Baha'is. But with Jesus there are verses that imply Jesus lives on in a physical body, and it is him that will return. So for Christians the number one thing to expect in the return of Christ is Jesus.

You are correct, that is what Christians expect, Jesus to return in the same body, but does it matter at all that this is simply an expectation, not something that is really going to happen?

 

[Trailblazer]

Everyone that is not a Baha'i. We don't even have original copies of the NT, how could someone claim to have accurate records of a 19th century Persian that go all the way back to the King of Israel? Plus, one of the genealogies went further back, all the way to Adam. That assumes that Adam was the first man. And then it assumes that all people drowned that weren't in Noah's family. From Noah it goes on to Abraham, then the sons of Israel and then on to David. Is that part accurate? Did people before the Flood live hundreds of years? Was there a Flood that killed every human and animal that wasn't on the Ark? I would guess Baha'is have some symbolic explanation, yet the genealogy is accurate?

So from Abraham we need a record of someone who wandered off to Persia. We also need a descendant of David that ended up in Persia. If your genealogy is true, you should have those records. If you don't, then don't expect anyone that is not a Baha'i to believe it is not made up.

No, just because the genealogy chart started with Adam, that does not assume that Adam was the first man. As I told you before, there are no records that precede Adam, and that is why the genealogy chart does not go further back.

I do not have the records but I assume somebody does. I do not expect anyone that is not a Baha'i to believe it is not made up. I do not care what they believe.

Christians do not have any records that prove the genealogy of Jesus, so why should anyone believe that Jesus was a descendant of David?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not have the records but I assume somebody does. I do not expect anyone that is not a Baha'i to believe it is not made up.

Sharh-i-Shajarih Namih-i-Mubarakih (Description of the geneology of Baha'u'llah). Bombay: Matba`-i Mustafa'i, 1321/1904. Reprinted, East Lansing, Mi.: H-Bahai, 2006. Arabic and Persian Baha'i Texts by Mirza Abu'l-Fadl Gulpaygani

Note: A treatise that Gulpaygani wrote on the genealogy of Baha'u'llah was confiscated when he was arrested in Tehran 1882 and thus lost, but years later a Baha'i wrote to `Abdu'l-Baha asking about this question and `Abdu'l-Baha referred him to Gulpaygani, who wrote a second, shorter treatise, tracing Baha'u'llah's ancestry to the last Sasanian king, Yazdigird III, a document that was of great importance in the conversion of the Zoroastrians.

Sen McGlinn would be able to answer this question.

Regards Tony

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

You are correct, that is what Christians expect, Jesus to return in the same body, but does it matter at all that this is simply an expectation, not something that is really going to happen?

At some point were going to have to go through the Book of Revelation and how the Baha'is interpret it.

 

[Trailblazer]

At some point were going to have to go through the Book of Revelation and how the Baha'is interpret it.

I really do not know how they have interpreted it but I know there is a book written about that as I recall.

Tony would probably know about that book...

 

[Neb]

So a "twinkling" equals a 100 years in Baha'i interpretation?

They all have the same level of ignorance when it comes to interpreting what is literal and metaphor in the bible. It did NOT say 100 years but "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye". The word “moment”, atomos in Greek or Atom in English means indivisible. How do they divide a “moment” into 100 years? What would happen when an atom split? Atomic explosion.

 

[CG Didymus]

I really do not know how they have interpreted it but I know there is a book written about that as I recall.

Tony would probably know about that book...

We've gone through most of it in the other thread. But it is more relevant to this thread, and of course, I still have a lot of questions about it. Adrian was the main person answering the questions and he did use that book you're talking about.

 

[CG Didymus]

They all have the same level of ignorance when it comes to interpreting what is literal and metaphor in the bible. It did NOT say 100 years but "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye". The word “moment”, atomos in Greek or Atom in English means indivisible. How do they divide a “moment” into 100 years? What would happen when an atom split? Atomic explosion.

You are the perfect guy to help with what's going on in Revelation. So, of course, every prophecy has to have been fulfilled. But, again, a few twist and turns, creative interpretations and some things that actually sound reasonably possible. So this comes from another thread about "The Great Beings" in the General Religious Debates. LH refers to Lover of Humanity and the number is which post it was. The number is going to be insanely high, yes it was a long, long thread.

LH 11666 The Lamb took the Book out of the One Who sat on the Throne. The Lamb was not the One on the Throne. It is very clear Revelation 5:5 speaks of two Manifestations the Lamb that was slain and the One seated on the Throne the Lion of Juda.

All Manifestations have the power to unseal the meanings of the Books which is why it says that first the Lion was the only one worthy but then later also said the Lamb was worthy.

LH 11727 John had two visions. One of the Lion and another of the Lamb - two Manifestations of God. The Bab and Baha’u’llah. The Lamb was not Christ as Christ was crucified not slain. And the word used for Lamb in Revelation ‘arnion’ appears nowhere in the Gospels clearly indicating it wasn’t Jesus. Jesus was always referred to as the ‘pascall’ Lamb.

The vision goes on to say that only one new song was sung by Two Figures again indicating They both brought one Faith.
​

Right off the bat, I see the Lamb and the Lion of Judah as Jesus. LH sees them as two different manifestations, The Bab and Baha’u’llah. The Lamb, this time, he says is The Bab because it can't be Jesus because Jesus wasn't slain... he was crucified. For me, that's not a very strong argument. But then he comes up with the two different words used for Lamb. So how would you respond to that? What is the reason for "arnion" instead of the "pascall" lamb. Regardless, I don't know of any claim that The Bab was ever known as the Lamb of God... until now, with this claim. And the other problem, Baha'u'llah being called the "Lion of Judah". Now I know why they have been pushing this genealogy thing so much. That's the connection. Baha'u'llah has to be a descendant of David.

A Baha'i strength is this thing about a "new song" and he will come with a "new name". One other thing, that comes up later in Revelation is "1260" days equals 1260 years. 1260 just happens to be the exact number of years in the Islamic calendar to arrive at the year 1844. The year the Bab declared that the promised one was coming soon. I'll post those things later, but I wanted you to know it's coming.

 

[Trailblazer]

We've gone through most of it in the other thread. But it is more relevant to this thread, and of course, I still have a lot of questions about it. Adrian was the main person answering the questions and he did use that book you're talking about.

Since you have so many questions, I just wonder, are you undecided about Christianity vs. Baha'i, or about God? Or are you just interested in religion on an intellectual level?

Answer only if you feel comfortable.

 

[Neb]

Neb, all these arguments were used against Christ.




Lets Look at the Full Passage as this is just a warning in the middle of the rest of the advice and we can note that a True Prophet will be raised, that will speak True Prophecy;


Deuteronomy 18:18-22 "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."

What it is that you did not understand in "I will raise up for them a prophet like you [like Moses] from among their brothers."? Among the twelve tribes of Israel, God will raise up a prophet like Moses in the Old Testament, right? Then in the New Testament Book, the Lord Jesus said this: "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." -Matthew 11:13.

John the Baptist represents the Law and the Prophets in the Old Testament - “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,” –Hebrews 1:1 And in the New Testament “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.” –Hebrews 1:2

No matter how you slice this you won’t find Bahaullah here and that is the TRUTH.

 

[Neb]

Here is a few Prophecies from the Baha'i Writings;

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consquent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin.'
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'Ali Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow of Sultan 'Abdu'l-Aziz of Turkey.
6. The breakup of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward spendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the "Movement of the Left,' and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocause).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary by-product of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are contagious or communicable.
28. The fruitless search for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

This list from Gary Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah. I suggest it is worth a read.

This link is to prophecies fulfilled from many other sources - Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage

Baha'u'llah fulfills this passage as True, no need to be afraid any more Neb!

Regards Tony

You call postdiction or hindsight prophecies?

 

[Neb]

Who says it is made up genealogy? Baha'is do not make things up.

Insisting a Persian Shiite a descendant of King David is NOT made up genealogy?

 

[Neb]

Baha’u’llah genealogy, in the Baha’i Writings, is good enough for me. I don't have to alter, twist, or adulterate anything to know that Baha’u’llah descended from King David.

It's like saying an apple came from a banana tree. Not gonna happen!!!

 

[Neb]

Yes I was dead in Christ.

Thank you Baha'u'llah for making me alive in Christ.

Regards Tony

you mean your argument is unresponsive/dead

 

[Neb]

From Scripture you have been given this answer already, this answer can never be proved False as it is the Truth;

1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

This gossip came from this book, Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation, a commentary book.

"The theology in the book lacks scholarship, but in all fairness the author is not a theologian. Assumes a futuristic view of the Apocalypse of John and forces a Bahai interpretation." From a 2 star Amazon reviewer.

 

[Neb]

"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'.


He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.


"The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)


"Regarding your question concerning the descent of Bahá’u’lláh from Abraham: The Master has stated that Bahá’u’lláh is a descendant of Abraham through a son of his, other than Isaac and Ishmael, from his wife Katurah…." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 24, 1943)


This Prophecy has been fulfilled. If you are interested to find a full Genealogy, you will find this to be so. The internet has charts that I will not use, as they have been compiled by Covenant Breakers, a few who still try with no success to split the Baha'i Faith.


Regards Tony

How many time I have to say this: The word "ullah" in baha-ullah or "allah", both in Arabic, was never in the bible or it does NOT translate into the "TRUE GOD" of the Bible, like Elohim, Jehovah, or Yahweh.

IOW, the god of the shiite/baha'i faith and the sunni/muslim, aka, "ullah/allah" is NOT the same as the "TRUE GOD" of the Bible.

So, when you see the “glory of God” in the bible it does NOT in any way means the “glory of ullah/allah” because the word “ullah/allah” is NOT a “PROPER NAME” but just a translation of the word “god” in Arabic. The “PROPER NAME” of the “God” of the Bible is “JEHOVAH” so if you see the “Glory of God” in the Bible it means it’s the “Glory of Jehovah” and NOT the “glory of ulla/allah”

Is this really hard to understand?

 

[Neb]

Which is exactly what happened. These were a Spiritual Events unfolding in a material way that need to be considered.

If you beleive in Christ, you already interpret the Torah as having mainly Spirirual Fulfillment in Jesus of Nazareth.

The Jews offered this level of rejection.

To reject Baha'u'llah, who fulfills all Biblical and other Scriptures in both a Material and Spiritual way, without a thourough and just look at what He has offered, is to again reject Christ as the Jews have done.

Regards Tony

"ullah" or "allah" is not a "PROPER NAME" of the TRUE GOD of the BIBLE. "ullah" or "allah" only translate into god in English or elohim in Hebrew BUT it does NOT translate into the "PROPER NAME" of the "TRUE GOD" of the Bible which is "JEHOVAH".

 

[Neb]

You are the perfect guy to help with what's going on in Revelation. So, of course, every prophecy has to have been fulfilled. But, again, a few twist and turns, creative interpretations and some things that actually sound reasonably possible. So this comes from another thread about "The Great Beings" in the General Religious Debates. LH refers to Lover of Humanity and the number is which post it was. The number is going to be insanely high, yes it was a long, long thread.

LH 11666 The Lamb took the Book out of the One Who sat on the Throne. The Lamb was not the One on the Throne. It is very clear Revelation 5:5 speaks of two Manifestations the Lamb that was slain and the One seated on the Throne the Lion of Juda.

All Manifestations have the power to unseal the meanings of the Books which is why it says that first the Lion was the only one worthy but then later also said the Lamb was worthy.

LH 11727 John had two visions. One of the Lion and another of the Lamb - two Manifestations of God. The Bab and Baha’u’llah. The Lamb was not Christ as Christ was crucified not slain. And the word used for Lamb in Revelation ‘arnion’ appears nowhere in the Gospels clearly indicating it wasn’t Jesus. Jesus was always referred to as the ‘pascall’ Lamb.

The vision goes on to say that only one new song was sung by Two Figures again indicating They both brought one Faith.
​

Right off the bat, I see the Lamb and the Lion of Judah as Jesus. LH sees them as two different manifestations, The Bab and Baha’u’llah. The Lamb, this time, he says is The Bab because it can't be Jesus because Jesus wasn't slain... he was crucified. For me, that's not a very strong argument. But then he comes up with the two different words used for Lamb. So how would you respond to that? What is the reason for "arnion" instead of the "pascall" lamb. Regardless, I don't know of any claim that The Bab was ever known as the Lamb of God... until now, with this claim. And the other problem, Baha'u'llah being called the "Lion of Judah". Now I know why they have been pushing this genealogy thing so much. That's the connection. Baha'u'llah has to be a descendant of David.

A Baha'i strength is this thing about a "new song" and he will come with a "new name". One other thing, that comes up later in Revelation is "1260" days equals 1260 years. 1260 just happens to be the exact number of years in the Islamic calendar to arrive at the year 1844. The year the Bab declared that the promised one was coming soon. I'll post those things later, but I wanted you to know it's coming.

I'm not in a position to interpret the Book of Revelation but read these verses anyway.
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
"He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
"He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life." Revelation 21:1-6

Death is unknown to anyone but it's a gift from God