Christian Belief in Satan

[Jayhawker Soule]

IMO Satan was a sly manipulator of the truth and did not show fully what he was like until some way down the track.
In Eden

Sly or courteous? After all, He did wait until dualism became de rigueur in the Persian and, later, the Hellenist world.

In Eden Satan certainly lied about God and was punished for that, ...

Certainly?

... but maybe the Jews don't see the serpent as Satan.

Now there's a thought.

 

[dybmh]

from my understanding from talking to some of them, God was supposed to have also dictated scribes and Rabbis, etc. to write down interpretations of the Torah, which were said to be just as directed by God as was the actual Torah itself. Therefore, Jews have a totally different understanding of let's say the Genesis Adam and Eve and talking serpent account:

I think there's a misunderstanding here. God did not dictate the interpretations to scribes and Rabbis. It would be great if that happened, but, it didn't. We have a written Torah. The Torah is written in a concentrated language of story and law. In addition to this Torah there was something else given. What this something else is, is the subject of speculation and mystery. Most people agree that there were some additional laws and details of the law given, but left unwritten. And most people agree that a method for expanding the law into the full version from the concentrated verson was given. Beyond that, little is known about what additional details of the story, interpretations, hints, or deeper levels of understanding of the story may have been given to Moses and passed down orally student to teacher. There is a large corpus of extra-biblical story telling called agaddah. Some of it may have come from Sinai, but no one really knows for sure, and it wasn't dictated to a scribe or a Rabbi. It was passed down teacher to student for around 2000ish years before it started to be written down. And what we have now is a mix of folklore, myth, legend, and maybe-maybe some details given at Sinai. When someone was telling you "Torath Mosheh source that says..." that doesn't mean it came from Sinai, and certainly doesn't mean dictated by God.

 

[David Davidovich]

I think there's a misunderstanding here. God did not dictate the interpretations to scribes and Rabbis. It would be great if that happened, but, it didn't. We have a written Torah. The Torah is written in a concentrated language of story and law. In addition to this Torah there was something else given. What this something else is, is the subject of speculation and mystery. Most people agree that there were some additional laws and details of the law given, but left unwritten. And most people agree that a method for expanding the law into the full version from the concentrated verson was given. Beyond that, little is known about what additional details of the story, interpretations, hints, or deeper levels of understanding of the story may have been given to Moses and passed down orally student to teacher. There is a large corpus of extra-biblical story telling called agaddah. Some of it may have come from Sinai, but no one really knows for sure, and it wasn't dictated to a scribe or a Rabbi. It was passed down teacher to student for around 2000ish years before it started to be written down. And what we have now is a mix of folklore, myth, legend, and maybe-maybe some details given at Sinai. When someone was telling you "Torath Mosheh source that says..." that doesn't mean it came from Sinai, and certainly doesn't mean dictated by God.

Wow... It seems like I've had my share of 'misunderstandings.' Because I thought I did an entire thread of this topic (Judaism and Supplemental Material), and once again, I could have sworn that I was told that in addition to the Torah being dictated by Hashem, that certain scribes or Rabbis were also being dictated by Hashem alongside the Torah in order to interpret what was in the Torah. And I'm not trying to slander or make things up about anyone, but I could have sworn this was something else that was said to me.

Or perhaps, so much stuff was thrown at me by this person where sometimes I felt more as if I was taking an advanced college course in Hebrew and Judaism rather than having a discussion on an internet message board, that maybe I just couldn't take in all of the information that I seemed to have been expected to read and take in. Therefore, once again, by bad, if that's something else that I had an incorrect recall about.

 

[dybmh]

Wow... It seems like I've had my share of 'misunderstandings.' Because I thought I did an entire thread of this topic (Judaism and Supplemental Material), and once again, I could have sworn that I was told that in addition to the Torah being dictated by Hashem, that certain scribes or Rabbis were also being dictated by Hashem alongside the Torah in order to interpret what was in the Torah. And I'm not trying to slander or make things up about anyone, but I could have sworn this was something else that was said to me.

Or perhaps, so much stuff was thrown at me by this person where sometimes I felt more as if I was taking an advanced college course in Hebrew and Judaism rather than having a discussion on an internet message board, that maybe I just couldn't take in all of the information that I seemed to have been expected to read and take in. Therefore, once again, by bad, if that's something else that I had an incorrect recall about.

No problem. I'll go review that thread and see if it's in there, or maybe direct you to a post which might have been easy to misunderstand.

 

[David Davidovich]

It would be interesting to know when the Jews developed their current doctrine of Satan. It certainly seems that in Jesus day they believed in demon possession and possibly that Satan was not a friendly angel roaming around doing the will of God.

Yes, that would be interesting, however, from the way it's been explained to me already is that Avodah Zarah had already creeped into a lot of Jewish culture and therefore, a lot of Jewish culture had not remained pure. But I am going to continue to read the thread to see if there are any answers by anyone who is a Conservative Jew.

 

[David Davidovich]

God does what is right and if God decided to do what is wrong, that does not make it right, and would mean that God is not good.

Huh? According to scripture, God doesn't even have that ability. (Titus 1:2;Hebrews 6:18)

I imagine so. That does not mean that they will not go down the wrong path however.

Seems like a waste of time to me. Especially with spirit creatures who have a different perception of time than humans do. Because their existence compared to our perception has been very short.

Christians are prone to judge God and God can use that to give us a better understanding of Him and an even closer relationship hopefully.

A question: So, in a way, does that mean that God is kind of bending to the will and opinions of humans?

Brian2 said:
But God is being judged by the angels and other spirits and if the see God be unjust then they might just make any rebellion against God wider and many more might go the way of Satan and those who followed him.

David Davidovich said:
So, when did they originally see God be unjust, which started the angels and spirits to rebel, who first rebelled against God?

I don't know what went on and I don't think anyone originally did see God be unjust. I think it all began with Satan becoming proud but other than what we are told about in the Bible I cannot say what happened.

Huh?

No, not to God, but to others who may have been watching.

Others who may have been watching like whom?

 

[David Davidovich]

Good question. The belief in Satan as a real personality who is not merely any adversary in particular, but the adversary, devil, serpent etc comes from the Bible itself. IF ha-satan is simply synonymous with being tempted by our own desires then a whole bunch of misunderstanding could have been avoided from the moment Eve was tempted by her own desires, an adversarial spirit against God arising out of her own heart. BUT, that's not how the exchange is portrayed! Eve in fact has a conversation with a character called a "crafty beast" which had been created by God. The world then falls AND the beast itself is condemned for his part in it!

This piece covers the evolution of Satan in Judaism and Christianity. From where did the Jews get the concept of Satan?

I'm confused. Because I thought that the article that you provided was really good and really summarized and explained well the evolution of the concept of Satan. For example:

The one and only time we find Satan used as a proper name in the Bible is in the Book of Chronicles. He appears in revisions of the books of Samuel and Kings, the Book of Chronicles, probably dating to the late 4th or early 3rd centuries B.C.E

When rewriting the story of King David calling a census in 2 Samuel 24:1, where it says "“And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah," the Chronicler switches out the Lord for Satan:



"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (1 Chronicles 21:1).


He is no longer ha-satan, the adversary, but Satan.


This is roughly the point at which the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, and the noun satan was translated into the Greek word diábolos, which means “one who slanders, accuses.” The Greek word eventually made its way into English as "devil".



This is also roughly the same period that the Book of the Watchers and the Book of Enoch were written. While these books were not incorporated into the Hebrew Bible, they were popular at the time – over 2,000 years ago, and reflect the views of at least some Jews in the late Second Temple period, including those living in Qumran who painstakingly made many copies of these books.

But yet, cOLTER, you say:

The belief in Satan as a real personality who is not merely any adversary in particular, but the adversary, devil, serpent etc comes from the Bible itself.

Therefore, the article that you provided demonstrates the opposite of what you are actually stating.

 

[David Davidovich]

IMO Satan was a sly manipulator of the truth and did not show fully what he was like until some way down the track.

Did not fully show what he was like to whom?

 

[Colt]

I'm confused. Because I thought that the article that you provided was really good and really summarized and explained well the evolution of the concept of Satan. For example:


But yet, cOLTER, you say:

Therefore, the article that you provided demonstrates the opposite of what you are actually stating.

I offered 2 things in my post:

1) A history of satan to Satan in Judaism, Jewish thought, leading to the belief in a devilish celestial being that the Jewish religious authorities accused Jesus of deriving his powers from.

2) Eve's conversation with a "crafty beast" depicts a personality reality that she spoke with, NOT merely her own tempting desires.

Belief in a Satan being comes from the scriptures.

 

[Brian2]

Did not fully show what he was like to whom?

God knew what he was like but humans it seems did not and other angels in heaven did not. God waits for someone to show their hand and does not condemn them before that imo.

 

[Brian2]

Huh? According to scripture, God doesn't even have that ability. (Titus 1:2;Hebrews 6:18)

So God does what is right always. God does as His character dictates. God is love.

Seems like a waste of time to me. Especially with spirit creatures who have a different perception of time than humans do. Because their existence compared to our perception has been very short.

Waste of time, waste of their lives.

A question: So, in a way, does that mean that God is kind of bending to the will and opinions of humans?

God understands us and how we function and seems willing to reach us at the place we are in and not demand perfection when we cannot deliver. God teaches us about Himself.

Huh?

As I said, I don't know the ins and outs of why rebellion happened initially. It seems to have happened because of Satan's pride and not because of any flaw in God.

Others who may have been watching like whom?

Other angelic beings.
God gives humans and angels enough rope to hang themselves. He does not just get angry and destroy them when they first start to show their true colours. Nobody would understand why except God. Justice has to be seen to be done or others start grumbling at what God has done.
So humans now on earth grumble a lot at what they say God has done, and that is because nobody knows the full story and it is not time to reveal it all. We just live by faith in God.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

1) A history of satan to Satan in Judaism, Jewish thought, leading to the belief in a devilish celestial being that the Jewish religious authorities accused Jesus of deriving his powers from.

Yes! When the Pharisees accused Jesus of getting his powers from “Beelzebub” in Matthew 12!
Good reasoning on that!

I think that in Jesus’ day, though, there were at least two other factions representing Jewish belief: the Sadducees, and the Essenes.
Did they all share that belief, that the Devil was a real entity?

 

[Colt]

Yes! When the Pharisees accused Jesus of getting his powers from “Beelzebub” in Matthew 12!
Good reasoning on that!

I think that in Jesus’ day, though, there were at least two other factions representing Jewish belief: the Sadducees, and the Essenes.
Did they all share that belief, that the Devil was a real entity?

The Dead Sea scrolls have Satan as a proper name in places. The Sadducees didn’t leave any written works.

 

[David Davidovich]

I offered 2 things in my post:

1) A history of satan to Satan in Judaism, Jewish thought, leading to the belief in a devilish celestial being that the Jewish religious authorities accused Jesus of deriving his powers from.

2) Eve's conversation with a "crafty beast" depicts a personality reality that she spoke with, NOT merely her own tempting desires.

Belief in a Satan being comes from the scriptures.

But still, the article that you provided negates (and did a very good job at doing it, if I may say so myself) what you said in your post in your interpretation of Eve's conversation with a "crafty beast," which some could have interpreted as being metaphoric or symbolic.

 

[David Davidovich]

God knew what he was like but humans it seems did not and other angels in heaven did not. God waits for someone to show their hand and does not condemn them before that imo.

Whaaaaaaaat? So, how could the other angels in heaven not know what God was like? (Job 38:7) That doesn't seem scriptural.

 

[David Davidovich]

So God does what is right always. God does as His character dictates. God is love.

So, are you admitting that what I said negates your answer?

Waste of time, waste of their lives.

So, are you admitting that the Christian Satan belief might be a myth?

God understands us and how we function and seems willing to reach us at the place we are in and not demand perfection when we cannot deliver. God teaches us about Himself.

It didn't seem like that during God's castigation of poor Job at Job 38 and Job 39:

38 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind. He said:

2 Who is this who obscures my counsel
with ignorant words?
3 Get ready to answer me like a man;
when I question you, you will inform me.

As I said, I don't know the ins and outs of why rebellion happened initially. It seems to have happened because of Satan's pride and not because of any flaw in God.

Well, I guess when it's scrutinized and not taken at face value, it may start to appear as not making sense.

Other angelic beings.

But I thought angels were smarter than that. I thought angels were more in the 'know' when it came to what was going on with God and heaven. However, you were saying earlier that you didn't think that the angels even knew God, even though scriptures show that they witnessed creation and applauded creation.

God gives humans and angels enough rope to hang themselves. He does not just get angry and destroy them when they first start to show their true colours. Nobody would understand why except God. Justice has to be seen to be done or others start grumbling at what God has done.
So humans now on earth grumble a lot at what they say God has done, and that is because nobody knows the full story and it is not time to reveal it all. We just live by faith in God.

Sounds like a wacky, little, tiny speck in the universe with wacky, angry, rebellious, selfish, creatures and perhaps made-up religious stories to help placate the pain, misery, and confusion that these creatures have. And where some of these creatures form religious groups who are more historically accurate than others, but who have a plethora of other faults and problems, and where other creatures form religious groups who have more assuaging beliefs that are more based on emotions and which are less historically accurate.

However, don't pay any attention to me... I'm just a skeptic.

 

[David Davidovich]

Yes! When the Pharisees accused Jesus of getting his powers from “Beelzebub” in Matthew 12!
Good reasoning on that!

I think that in Jesus’ day, though, there were at least two other factions representing Jewish belief: the Sadducees, and the Essenes.
Did they all share that belief, that the Devil was a real entity?

Hello, @Hockeycowboy. I have a question or two for you. @cOLTER's article also said:

By the time the Book of Job was conceived, apparently in the early Second Temple period around 2,500 years ago, we can see a slight movement towards the development of Satan as an evil being. But he still isn't Satan with a capital S. The book itself is an essay on the problem of evil, probably written in response to the destruction of Judah and the Temple.


Job, we are told, is “perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil,” yet he faces terrible calamities. Why?


Job’s troubles are attributed to the work of ha-satan, that is, "the adversary," and not, as the English translations insist, Satan with capital S. The word satan in Job could not be a name: in the Hebrew original it is always preceded by "ha," which is equivalent to the English word "the" (this would be equivalent to saying “the Bob”). Thus satan in Job is "adversary," just as it was in the earlier books of the Bible.

And an example of this is in a Jewish translation:

6 Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.

ווַיְהִ֣י הַיּ֔וֹם וַיָּבֹ֙אוּ֙ בְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים לְהִתְיַצֵּ֖ב עַל־יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיָּב֥וֹא גַם־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן בְּתוֹכָֽם:

Therefore, why do Jehovah's Witnesses have this standard for John 1:1?

Misconception: The last phrase in John 1:1 should be translated “the Word was God.”

Fact: While many Bible translators render the verse this way, others see the need to render it differently. In the original-language text, the two occurrences of “God” (Greek, the·osʹ) at John 1:1 are grammatically different. In the first occurrence, the word “God” is preceded by the Greek definite article, while the article does not appear before the second occurrence. Many scholars note that the absence of the definite article before the second the·osʹ is significant. For example, The Translator’s New Testament says regarding this absence of the article: “In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of Theos (God) so that the phrase means ‘The Word was divine.’” b Other scholars c and Bible translations point to this same distinction.

However, they don't carry that same standard for Job 1:6? Even though as I demonstrated, the concept that they follow for John 1:1 is similar in the original Hebrew in Job 1:6?

6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God*+ entered to take their station before Jehovah,+ and Satan+ also entered among them.+

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hello, @Hockeycowboy. I have a question or two for you. @cOLTER's article also said:

And an example of this is in a Jewish translation:

Therefore, why do Jehovah's Witnesses have this standard for John 1:1?

However, they don't carry that same standard for Job 1:6? Even though as I demonstrated, the concept that they follow for John 1:1 is similar in the original Hebrew in Job 1:6?

I don’t think I follow you.

The book of John was written in Greek;
The book of Job was written in Hebrew.

Different styles of grammar.

Speaking of styles….apparently you don’t accept Moses as the writer? (Since you said 2500 years ago…Moees lived before that.)

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101990079?q=%22Bible+Book+Number+18%E2%80%8B%22&p=par

And the following article has some reasoning you might enjoy:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989267

Best wishes.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Whaaaaaaaat? So, how could the other angels in heaven not know what God was like?

However, you were saying earlier that you didn't think that the angels even knew God….

These were your replies to @Brian2

If I may speak for him, I think Brian meant the other angels didn’t know the Devil, what his true intentions were.


If I’m wrong, Brian, then I apologize. But I think I understood you correctly.

 

[Brian2]

So, are you admitting that what I said negates your answer?

I suppose so. When I said the sentence below, I was not meaning that God does anything that is wrong however.
God does what is right and if God decided to do what is wrong, that does not make it right, and would mean that God is not good.

So, are you admitting that the Christian Satan belief might be a myth?

No I was lamenting the wasted life of Satan. But hey, I suppose what Satan has done has worked out for the best for many people.

It didn't seem like that during God's castigation of poor Job at Job 38 and Job 39:

God was giving Job a deeper knowledge of God and of wisdom.

Well, I guess when it's scrutinized and not taken at face value, it may start to appear as not making sense.

I suppose. I find that if I look at things in the Bible with faith and a positive view of what and who God is, then that helps me see that side of what is said.

But I thought angels were smarter than that. I thought angels were more in the 'know' when it came to what was going on with God and heaven. However, you were saying earlier that you didn't think that the angels even knew God, even though scriptures show that they witnessed creation and applauded creation.

I think @Hockeycowboy is correct and I was saying that the angels did not know Satan, so if Satan has made it look, to the other angels, as if he has just made a mistake, God would know better but cannot judge Satan on that knowledge or may risk losing other angels to Satan's side, sympathising with Satan.

Sounds like a wacky, little, tiny speck in the universe with wacky, angry, rebellious, selfish, creatures and perhaps made-up religious stories to help placate the pain, misery, and confusion that these creatures have. And where some of these creatures form religious groups who are more historically accurate than others, but who have a plethora of other faults and problems, and where other creatures form religious groups who have more assuaging beliefs that are more based on emotions and which are less historically accurate.

However, don't pay any attention to me... I'm just a skeptic.

Tiny speck in the universe but an important speck. If things don't end up right here then evil could contaminate the rest of the universe and whatever else there is to contaminate.