Christian Belief in Satan

[Colt]

But still, the article that you provided negates (and did a very good job at doing it, if I may say so myself) what you said in your post in your interpretation of Eve's conversation with a "crafty beast," which some could have interpreted as being metaphoric or symbolic.

...............And, the rest of what I said was that, if the Eve narrative had been clearer and said something like "Eve was tempted by her own selfish desires to sin, to rebel against God" then that would have saved a lot of confusion! Do you understand what I am saying here???? There wouldn't be a need to speculate and leave NO room for interpretation!

 

[David Davidovich]

I don’t think I follow you.

The book of John was written in Greek;
The book of Job was written in Hebrew.

Different styles of grammar.

Right. But let me quote @cOLTER's article again:

By the time the Book of Job was conceived, apparently in the early Second Temple period around 2,500 years ago, we can see a slight movement towards the development of Satan as an evil being. But he still isn't Satan with a capital S. The book itself is an essay on the problem of evil, probably written in response to the destruction of Judah and the Temple.

However, Jehovah's Witnesses are glad to translate ha satan (which is in the Hebrew) as a personal name with a captial "S" even though the Hebrew language doesn't dictate it that way.

But inconsistently, they make a big deal about the second occurrence of the Greek word theos in John 1:1 not being the same as the first occurrence of theos in John 1:1 because the first occurrence of theos has the Greek word ho in front of it, which makes it different from the second occurrence of theos. Therefore, why do Jehovah's Witnesses insist upon the rules of the Greek language applying to the Christian Greek scriptures, but they don't insist upon the rules of the Hebrew language applying to the Hebrew scriptures?

Speaking of styles….apparently you don’t accept Moses as the writer? (Since you said 2500 years ago…Moees lived before that.)

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101990079?q=%22Bible+Book+Number+18%E2%80%8B%22&p=par

He may or may not be. I've read information about both viewpoints.

And the following article has some reasoning you might enjoy:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989267

Best wishes.

I didn't have time to read all that right now, however, I did see the part near the top where it said:

Eyewitness testimony as to Satan’s existence is also recorded there. Who was the eyewitness? Jesus Christ, who lived in heaven before coming to earth, repeatedly spoke of that wicked one by name.—Luke 22:31; 10:18; Matt. 25:41.

And I know that as a Jehovah's Witness what I'm about to say probably means absolutely nothing to you, but @cOLTER's article (which you probably didn't even read) also said:
Late Second Temple Period (450 B.C.E.-70 C.E.): My name isn't Legion, it's Mastema

The one and only time we find Satan used as a proper name in the Bible is in the Book of Chronicles. He appears in revisions of the books of Samuel and Kings, the Book of Chronicles, probably dating to the late 4th or early 3rd centuries B.C.E.



When rewriting the story of King David calling a census in 2 Samuel 24:1, where it says "“And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah," the Chronicler switches out the Lord for Satan:



"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (1 Chronicles 21:1).



He is no longer ha-satan, the adversary, but Satan.


This is roughly the point at which the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, and the noun satan was translated into the Greek word diábolos, which means “one who slanders, accuses.” The Greek word eventually made its way into English as "devil".



This is also roughly the same period that the Book of the Watchers and the Book of Enoch were written. While these books were not incorporated into the Hebrew Bible, they were popular at the time – over 2,000 years ago, and reflect the views of at least some Jews in the late Second Temple period, including those living in Qumran who painstakingly made many copies of these books.

In addition, Hebrew literature from this period also refers to demonic figures named Belial and Samael. All these names refer to the same basic idea, a chief demon, who opposes God and heads a group of fallen angels who spread evil throughout the world.


Where did Jews of this period get the idea that there is a chief demon responsible for all that is evil?


At one level, inventing a chief demon was a logical evolution of the conception of God that took shape in this period. If God is all-powerful and utterly good, how could bad things happen? He couldn’t be responsible, so some other being must be to blame, a kind of anti-God perhaps.


But Jews apparently didn’t come up with this idea on their own. They seem to have picked it up from their Persian overloads, who ruled over the entire Middle East from 539 to 330 B.C.E. The Persian religion Zoroastrianism envisioned the universe as a battle ground between to opposing supreme gods Ahura Mazda, the "wise lord," and Angra Mainyu, the destructive spirit."

And Jesus was a Jew born sometime between the period of 450 B.C.E.-70 C.E. But I understand believing the above is out of the question for a Christian apologist, however, that doesn't necessarily nullify its historicity.

 

[David Davidovich]

...............And, the rest of what I said was that, if the Eve narrative had been clearer and said something like "Eve was tempted by her own selfish desires to sin, to rebel against God" then that would have saved a lot of confusion! Do you understand what I am saying here???? There wouldn't be a need to speculate and leave NO room for interpretation!

I'm not sure where you said the above, but you never explained that in your post #37, however, I did miss your further explanation in your post #49. And yes, now I'm understanding what you are saying.

So, I have a question: So, do you have the Christian belief that Satan is an evil fallen angel?

 

[David Davidovich]

...............And, the rest of what I said was that, if the Eve narrative had been clearer and said something like "Eve was tempted by her own selfish desires to sin, to rebel against God" then that would have saved a lot of confusion! Do you understand what I am saying here???? There wouldn't be a need to speculate and leave NO room for interpretation!

But something else that I wanted to say is that your explanation is kind of bogus because there are many metaphors in the Bible where either no one knows what is being talked about at first or people come to later have a better understanding of what is being talked about.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

However, Jehovah's Witnesses are glad to translate ha satan (which is in the Hebrew) as a personal name with a captial "S" even though the Hebrew language doesn't dictate it that way.

But inconsistently, they make a big deal about the second occurrence of the Greek word theos in John 1:1 not being the same as the first occurrence of theos in John 1:1 because the first occurrence of theos has the Greek word ho in front of it, which makes it different from the second occurrence of theos. Therefore, why do Jehovah's Witnesses insist upon the rules of the Greek language applying to the Christian Greek scriptures, but they don't insist upon the rules of the Hebrew language applying to the Hebrew scriptures?

“Inconsistently”?
First off, the contention with John 1:1 being mistranslated is about who God is. That’s a very important issue! Probably the most important!

Secondly, whether we call this satan “the adversary” (ha satan), or call him “Satan”, doesn’t alter what he is: a real person. Obviously, the True God can’t be tempted to do evil; therefore, satan as merely an evil desire, makes no sense talking to God in Heaven. But it does make sense, if he’s an individual.


(But that’s not the issue to you, right? It’s all about him being called by that name, right? Or am I wrong?)

Let me ask you something….
Does it matter if I talk about Joe Biden, as “Mr. Joe Biden”, or if I talk about him as “the president”?
It’s still the same person, is it not?

 

[Colt]

But something else that I wanted to say is that your explanation is kind of bogus because there are many metaphors in the Bible where either no one knows what is being talked about at first or people come to later have a better understanding of what is being talked about.

Following your line of reason then later on in the progression in the development of the scriptures Satan became a real celestial being at odds with God.

* Were Adam, Eve, Elijah, Enoch etc. just metaphors?
* Was Job real but Satan a metaphor?
* Is God just a metaphor because he gets quoted like the crafty beast?

 

[Colt]

I'm not sure where you said the above, but you never explained that in your post #37, however, I did miss your further explanation in your post #49. And yes, now I'm understanding what you are saying.

So, I have a question: So, do you have the Christian belief that Satan is an evil fallen angel?

I believe Satan was a fallen son of God, a celestial being but not of the angelic order. He was part of a rebellion in the heavenly realm against the rule of the unseen God.

 

[David Davidovich]

“Inconsistently”?
First off, the contention with John 1:1 being mistranslated is about who God is. That’s a very important issue! Probably the most important!

Secondly, whether we call this satan “the adversary” (ha satan), or call him “Satan”, doesn’t alter what he is: a real person. Obviously, the True God can’t be tempted to do evil; therefore, satan as merely an evil desire, makes no sense talking to God in Heaven. But it does make sense, if he’s an individual.

Sounds like you missed the entire point of what the Jewish belief and concept of what ha-satan is. But that's okay. Because most Christans have no idea because they only go by the anti-Jewish rhetoric that is found in the Christian Greek scriptures and they remain ignorant as far as anything else. Although, the article (which, once again, you probably didn't even read), I think did a pretty good job at summarizing what the Jewish perceptive is. Therefore, until you understand what the Jewish perspective is (i.e. if you even care), we are at an impasse. Although, this may be a scheme from the devil to try to seduce your mind.

(But that’s not the issue to you, right? It’s all about him being called by that name, right? Or am I wrong?)

That sounds more like you're projecting.

Let me ask you something….
Does it matter if I talk about Joe Biden, as “Mr. Joe Biden”, or if I talk about him as “the president”?
It’s still the same person, is it not?

Well, sure, if we're talking about a person in the first place.

 

[David Davidovich]

Following your line of reason then later on in the progression in the development of the scriptures Satan became a real celestial being at odds with God.

* Were Adam, Eve, Elijah, Enoch etc. just metaphors?
* Was Job real but Satan a metaphor?
* Is God just a metaphor because he gets quoted like the crafty beast?

So, using that same line of reasoning that you are trying to turn back on me, would that mean that the pagan Levithan is not a metaphor in these three passages? Because please explain these verses to me.
Psalm 74:14
Isaiah 27:1
Job 41

 

[Colt]

So, using that same line of reasoning that you are trying to turn back on me, would that mean that the pagan Levithan is not a metaphor in these three passages? Because please explain these verses to me.
Psalm 74:14
Isaiah 27:1
Job 41

These depictions seem to portray different mythical figures, even gods power of creation.

Brittanica

Leviathan, Hebrew Livyatan, in Jewish mythology, a primordial sea serpent. Its source is in prebiblical Mesopotamian myth, especially that of the sea monster in the Ugaritic myth of Baal (see Yamm). In the Old Testament, Leviathan appears in Psalms 74:14 as a multiheaded sea serpent that is killed by God and given as food to the Hebrews in the wilderness. In Isaiah 27:1, Leviathan is a serpent and a symbol of Israel’s enemies, who will be slain by God. In Job 41, it is a sea monster and a symbol of God’s power of creation.

 

[David Davidovich]

These depictions seem to portray different mythical figures, even gods power of creation.

Brittanica

Leviathan, Hebrew Livyatan, in Jewish mythology, a primordial sea serpent. Its source is in prebiblical Mesopotamian myth, especially that of the sea monster in the Ugaritic myth of Baal (see Yamm). In the Old Testament, Leviathan appears in Psalms 74:14 as a multiheaded sea serpent that is killed by God and given as food to the Hebrews in the wilderness. In Isaiah 27:1, Leviathan is a serpent and a symbol of Israel’s enemies, who will be slain by God. In Job 41, it is a sea monster and a symbol of God’s power of creation.

So, I'm curious. Is there anything in those Hebrew scriptures that say or spell out that it is talking about mythical figures, which has its source in prebiblical Mesopotamian myth and the Ugaritic myth of Baal?

 

[David Davidovich]

Although, this may be a scheme from the devil to try to seduce your mind.

OMG... I should have known better to kid around with a Chrisitan fundamentalist like that. However, since Jehovah's Witness leaders tell the rank and file not to go on internet discussion boards, I figured that the ones who disobey this admonition felt like they were strong enough to be away from the protection of the flock and exposed to other thoughts, ideas, and input...

 

[Colt]

So, I'm curious. Is there anything in those Hebrew scriptures that say or spell out that it is talking about mythical figures, which has its source in prebiblical Mesopotamian myth and the Ugaritic myth of Baal?

No, it's a matter of scholarship that determined the source of the Leviathan for us today. The evolution of Judaism found in the Hebrew scriptures draws from many sources of religious wisdom over the ages. But that's a good question.

I have answered your questions concerning this line of reasoning, but you haven't answered mine.

* Were Adam, Eve, Elijah, Enoch etc. just metaphors?
* Was Job real but Satan a metaphor in the narrative?
* Is God just a metaphor because he gets quoted like the crafty beast?

 

[wellwisher]

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but in the OP, I said this was "a question for Christians." And according to Christians (or at least most of them) God is omniscient and doesn't literally sleep.

In Genesis, God works for six days and rests on the seventh day. Rest does not necessarily mean sleep, but it more like not working. In Jewish tradition, one is not supposed to work on the Sabbath; Saturday. Saturday is named after the planet Saturn which has the root Sat =Satan; Satan's day.

On the human Sabbath, one can still think and meditate; plan, but one is not supposed to work. If any critical work needs to be done on the Sabbath, you need to hire someone to work for you. God's Sabbath rest explains why Satan was able to influence Adam and Eve. God set this meeting up in advance; on Friday, just before his rest. God knew law and prohibition; Satan's tree of good and evil, would create temptation. Law, temptation and need for security made Satan relevant to humans. Satan was hired to become the Lord of the Earth, often mistaken for God the Father by the ancient humans. Jesus said nobody has seen the Father except the son. One can interact with your family on the Sabbath; father and son, but work based associates must wait. If you pray and plead to God, when he was not working, he would redirect you to Satan.

In mythology, Saturn or Saturday was described as a god of time, generation, dissolution, abundance, wealth, agriculture, periodic renewal and liberation. When Satan tempts Jesus in the desert, he promises Jesus all the abundance of the earth; kingdoms, if Jesus would bow and serve him. Satan and Saturn had this authority as the god of abundance and liberation. If Jesus had accepted he would have fulfilled the prophesy of the Messiah; rich and powerful leader able to subdue all enemies and liberate Israel. But Jesus respectfully refuses. Jesus knew Satan had this authority on earth. Instead Jesus would decline, be killed, resurrect and trigger a revolution is heaven, leading to Satan getting the boot, while God finished his rest. Jesus takes over Satan's Job in heaven, sitting at the right of God, as God finishes his rest.

If you go through the Old and New Testament, the level of creation in Genesis; God caliber creation like the universe, sun and earth and life, does not happen again; after God rests, until Revelations. God creates an entire bejeweled city that descends to the earth and then later creates a new heaven and earth. The plagues of Moses, for example, does not create anything new, but simply makes use of what is already here; disease, etc. This was within the wheelhouse of the hired hand, Satan. Satan, the angel of good and evil explains why the person, assumed to be God in the Old Testament, does good and evil. The first six days are all paradise which is naturally good.

Satan was God's hired hand; CEO, who was put in charge of the earth/ humans from the time of the fall from paradise, until Satan is thrown from heaven; Revelations. God was the Chairman of the Board giving his chosen CEO authority to lead. Satan and his tree of knowledge of good and evil; law, was divinely sanctioned by God, up to the point Satan is escorted from heaven, with his loyal angels. After that, Law and Satan would remain with humans and earth, but law became more like the laws of man and Satan, and no longer law that was sanctioned by God; Atheism.

If you compare the Old Testament law there were 613 commandments. Jesus reduces this to 2; love God and love your neighbor. Jesus was phasing out law and knowledge of good and evil; Satan. Once Satan is removed from heaven, law starts to escalate on earth. The State of California, today alone, has 395,608 regulatory restrictions. Law defines sin, with California, alone, having created and defined 395,608 regulatory sins. That tree of knowledge of subjective good and evil, is a sequoia of man made law; divides upon itself like a branching tree from much simpler beginnings; sapling.

 

[David Davidovich]

No, it's a matter of scholarship that determined the source of the Leviathan for us today. The evolution of Judaism found in the Hebrew scriptures draws from many sources of religious wisdom over the ages. But that's a good question.

Thank you. But another question to ask you is... So, then why can't scholarship determine the source of satan for us today?

I have answered your questions concerning this line of reasoning, but you haven't answered mine.

* Were Adam, Eve, Elijah, Enoch etc. just metaphors?
* Was Job real but Satan a metaphor in the narrative?

As far as Elijah is concerned, I don't know. However, as far as the others are concerned, I've asked Jewish members quite a few questions in the R Q&A forum, and often times I received so much information, I'm not really sure. But as far as satan is concerned, the answer and the explanations that I received from the Jewish members at this forum was very clear, and satan is supposed to only be a metaphor.

* Is God just a metaphor because he gets quoted like the crafty beast?

And according to Jews, no. God is definitely not a metaphor.

 

[Colt]

Thank you. But another question to ask you is... So, then why can't scholarship determine the source of satan for us today?

As far as Elijah is concerned, I don't know. However, as far as the others are concerned, I've asked Jewish members quite a few questions in the R Q&A forum, and often times I received so much information, I'm not really sure. But as far as satan is concerned, the answer and the explanations that I received from the Jewish members at this forum was very clear, and satan is supposed to only be a metaphor.

And according to Jews, no. God is definitely not a metaphor.

The narratives of Adam & Eve are ancient and carried presumably through the Sethite priesthood and others via oral tradition. The general theology of Judaism draws from many traditions. Abrahams religion had been that of his father from “beyond the rivers.”

 

[wellwisher]

Satan also symbolizes a neural subroutine that formed in the natural human brain. It appears with the introduction of knowledge of good and evil; law. This unconscious subroutine adds a wildcard that can distort natural conscious perception.

When the brain creates new memory, emotional tags; chemicals from the limbic system combine with sensory content, during the memory writing process. Our memory has both sensory detail; content and an emotional valence. Our strongest and most enduring memories will have the strongest feeling stamps from when created; marriage, graduation, first child, trauma, etc.

Law and knowledge of good and evil, is a unique form of binary memory that can game the natural memory writing process. The polarization into good and evil, by law, results in two conflicting emotional tags to express the law memory. You need to know both the good and the bad to know how to act properly, and what to avoid. The good side of the law; drive 55mph, results in tag of calm and rest, while going too fast 76mph, is tagged with fear of a car accident and/or jail time.

Law is like a two sided coin, with law memories creating conflicting emotional tags. The animal can feel rest or fear, with their memory tagged one way or the other, based on the situation. Reality is not set up to feel both at the same time. Reality is morally neutrality; one memory and one tag.

The problem with the induction of conflicting feeling tags; calm and fear, due to law, can be understood with an analogy. If you have ever been in a love-hate relationship; two conflicting feelings, the feeling of love wants to merge with the beloved, while the feelings of hate wishes to separate. The natural animal can come or go with love or with hate, but the induction of mixed emotions in humans, does not allow one to come or go. Rather, one orbits, at a distance, to express both at the same time. This was useful for focus and concentration.

Since very few people see themselves as evil, most will try to repress the dark side of law, while making the good side of law conscious; way to live. But since law is a binary memory, the dark side, even if repressed, is still there. It always implied by the good side as part of a set. What forms in the unconscious mind; repressed darkness, is the Satan subroutine. This subroutine is connected to the repressed dark side of law, which by mirroring the good, ca have a life of its own, trying to become conscious. This is why the preacher who preaches monogamy, might starts sleeping with other women; a reflected compulsion from the subroutine. The Satan subroutine can impact how we see reality and compulsively act in reality.

Paul, in the New Testament appears to understand how this subroutine worked. He said, I would not have known about converting unless the law said, thou shall not covert. Sin, taking opportunity through the command, then produces sin of all kinds; the repressed subroutine of darkness taught by law become active. Satan is good and evil; orbit.

Good and evil is a neural illusion that has been used for thousands of years, very similar to the two poles of a magnet. A magnet has a north pole and a south pole. However, neither pole; monopole, exists by itself. We cannot isolate the North Pole without a South Pole. It is one thing; magnet, that appear to us as two connected things, neither of which has a separated life or existence, of their own. You cannot successfully cut law in half and just be good, since if this good pole is expressed, the other pole will also appear. The repressed pole appears each time we try to be good by the law, since knowledge of good and evil these always come in pairs, with the more often repressed dark pole forming the Satan subroutine as a complement.

Jesus also understood how this worked and suggested ways to get rid of the unnatural polarization. Forgiveness of sin, for example, tones down the fear tag of law, since the wage of sin is no longer death, but also kindness and forgiveness. The polarization is still there due to being a binary law type memories, but the orbit was made now closer, where one can touch the other, but not yet embrace; faith.

Doing away with the law; law nailed to the cross, was another way, since if law was not taught from childhood, the memory would not support the Satan subroutine. Satan lives only in the tree of law. This lack of law and also Satan would help to lower compulsions and make it easier to be natural.

However, in the short term, doing away with all law, starting with humans, with thousand of years of law conditioning and highly developed satan subroutines; original sin, would cause the potential between their consciousness and the subroutine to want to lower, quickly; decaying orbit, with this causing a strong, but temporary surge of evil, until the potential is gone. This did occur against the early Christians who suggested done away with law. To avoid this chaos, law returned, until we would address this is a more scientific way. A subroutine is not a person but it can have a type of life.

Since law is a collective set of knowledge of good and evil, and since humans brains also create memory the same way, the Satan subroutine is not just a terminal affect within any given human brain under law, but this subroutine can also network, with the subroutines in other humans; large scale atrocities, since we collectively induce the same cultural polarizations.

Reality is not as clear cut as philosophy or science make it, since it does not address the Satan subroutine that polarizes the way we view reality into opposites. Even though there is no proof of a magnetic monopole, we still teach and define magnets as though there are two actual tangible poles.

Science dismisses religion, and is therefore unconscious of how the Satan subroutine works, even working within science. Even scientists are under law. When new data, like well formed galaxies very early in the universe, were not predicted by the accepted models, rather than stop the presses and require a theoretical redo, they will foot drag major change, so the apple cart is not upset, bad theory lingering way too long; Satan subroutine in science. Adaptation is inhibited due to personal costs; evil, such as loss of prestige at the highest levels. It is not about science anymore.

 

[David Davidovich]

The narratives of Adam & Eve are ancient and carried presumably through the Sethite priesthood and others via oral tradition.

I don't know. Could be.

The general theology of Judaism draws from many traditions. Abrahams religion had been that of his father from “beyond the rivers.”

Well, the one thing that I don't have too much to say about concerning the Hebrew/Jewish culture is the claim of the passed-down word-of-mouth by millions of witnesses who were supposed to have experienced the presence of God at Mt. Sinai.

 

[Colt]

I don't know. Could be.

Well, the one thing that I don't have too much to say about concerning the Hebrew/Jewish culture is the claim of the passed-down word-of-mouth by millions of witnesses who were supposed to have experienced the presence of God at Mt. Sinai.

Millions of witnesses at Mt Sini? Thats impossible! The best estimates for the total number of Israelites who fled Egypt was 140,000

What was the population of the Israelites when they left Egypt?​

Israel’s total population leaving at the Exodus was 5,550 according to Petrie, over 20,000 according to Mendenhall, about 72,000 (Wenham) and about 140,000 (Clark). How Many Israelites Died At Mt Sinai? - CLJ


Moses took Aaron and 70 elders up on Sini. They purportedly experienced a spiritual presence of some sort. Moses left the elders and went further up the mountain, but at no time did anyone "see God". Exodus 33:20 But He added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”

Sini was erupting in that day, the smoke and fire would have been a source of awe and reverence for the Israelites in the region. Yahweh was the name of the nature God of Sini, one of many nature Gods among the nomadic tribes.

 

[Clear]

Hi @David Davidovich and @Hockeycowboy

While I don't want to interrupt your discussion, I just wanted to make a historical point.

@David Davidovich seems to be speaking of modern rabbinic (rabbanate) Judaism as though it was the same religion as the ancient Israelite religion (the two religions are different). He also speaks of the relatively modern masoretic bible as though it was the same text as ancient bibles (he used the example of Job...) and this is also incorrect.

@Hockeycowboy seems to be discussing, in this case, a bit more historically grounded version of early Judeo-Christian Satan, which seems to be more consistent with pre-creation Satan.

However, the religion that we refer to when we speak of Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism no longer has any mature form of theology regarding pre-creation Satan as the talmudic Judaism prohibits discussion of, or questions about pre-creation conditions and satans existence there and the reasons surrounding his fall from heaven. Thus the more modern rabbinic (talmudic/rabbanate) Judaism no longer knows much about what the religion of the early Israelites say they believed about the character called Satan/Lucifer/the Devil, etc.

Though this is a specific historical point, it is important to remember.

In any case, good luck to you two in your discussion.

Clear