Christian: Do you deserve to go to heaven?

[Katzpur]

Katzpur I disagree. The phrase "repenting to the best of our ability" doesn't sound like repentance at all. It sounds like it's all about how 'well' you can repent, even though the whole point of repenting is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to repent ENOUGH. Repentance is admitting that you have absolutely no control over your salvation because no matter how sorry you are, you still deserve hell.

Wherever did you come up with that definition of repentance? I can't think of anywhere in the Bible where we're told that repentance is admitting that you have no control over your salvation. Repentance is the act of feeling sorrow or regret for sin, leading to amendment of one's ways. By "repenting to the best of our ability," I didn't in any way intend to imply that it's a quantitative thing -- that we're being graded and that only a certain score qualifies us for admittance into Heaven. I don't believe that at all. Jesus Christ expects the same thing from each of us -- all we have to give.

I personally do not believe that we have no control over our salvation. If that were the case, we might as well just sit back and offer lip service to our Lord Jesus Christ. We have been commanded to follow his example. Furthermore, He told us that there will come a time when He will separate the sheep from the goats. He will do so based upon whether we were obedient and faithful to Him, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick -- or simply ignoring them and claiming that all we have to do is believe. Of course we can't expect to become perfect once we have acknowledged our need for a Savior, but that doesn't mean we should throw up our arms and say, "It's useless. I'm a sinner and I deserve Hell. Therefore, I'm not going to do a darned thing to try to change."

Hence, grace. Grace is the most important Christian belief because of the human dilemma. And grace can never be earned.

No, it can't. It's given to us because Jesus' love for us is unconditional. Does that give us an excuse to ignore Christ's admonition to obey His Father's commandments? Are we supposed to say, "I'm saved regardless of what I may choose to do I don't need to repent because it's impossible to repent enough."?

Repentance is only something you do once because it is admitting that you deserve hell. How can you do that more than once?

We only repent once? Well, speak for yourself, Tom. I know that I need to repent every time I've done something wrong. I feel remorse over decisions that lead me away from my Heavenly Father and must make a renewed effort to improve every day of my life. Repentance has nothing to do with admitting that you deserve hell. It has everything to do with a continual effort to be a faithful servant of Jesus Christ and of enduring to the end. It has everything to do with a lifelong commitment to becoming a better person.

That's why a doctrine of multiple levels of heaven isn't in the Bible, because salvation is only ONE choice and it is available to EVERYONE from Mother Theresa to Osama bin Laden.

Sure there are multiple levels of Heaven described in the Bible. There are multiple levels of Heaven because there are multiple levels of righteousness. Everyone is different. We all have different backgrounds. We come from different cultures. We have different personalities, levels of intelligence and haul around different baggage. Everything is not either black or white. Jesus said that He will judge every man according to his works. I don't know what that means to you, but to me, it means that greater love, compassion, mercy, charity, understanding and forgiveness will yield a greater reward than lesser love, compassion, mercy, charity, understanding and forgiveness. In the resurrection, there will be degrees of glory corresponding to the glory of the sun, moon and stars. This is Biblical. Your one-size-fits-all Heaven is not.

 

[Smoke]

a doctrine of multiple levels of heaven isn't in the Bible

2 Corinthians 12.2:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.​

 

[Mr. Peanut]

2 Corinthians 12.2:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.​

While I believe absolutely that some who have been freely saved will have greater position or rank, and reward, "treasure in Heaven", etc. I wish to adress this "third heaven". I read, and I do not remember where, that the common understanding and use in the time that was written was that the immediate sky, clouds, wind, etc, of earth, what we call the atmosphere, is the first heaven, the second heaven being where the sun, moon, and stars were seen, outer-space, and the third heaven is heaven itself.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

I may say a word on repentance. Repentance for salvation is a one-time repentance, turning from disbelief to belief in Christ as Saviour. Once a person has placed their faith in Christ for salvation, there is another kind of repentance we do that has nothing to do with salvation as that matter has been settled forever the moment one trusted completely in Christ. After one has been forever, freely saved to the uttermost, the Holy Spirit begins a work of conforming us to be more like Christ. As he reveals sinful thoughts, attitudes, actions, behaviours, etc. that we all have and will continue to have during this life, even the best of Christians will, we repent of these sins and grow into more mature Christians and hopefully begin to produce fruit, such as the fruits of the Spirit--love, joy, peace, etc., winning souls, and doing good works, etc. While repentance unto salvation is a one-time repentance, repentance as we grow in grace is an on-going process. Those who yield to the Spirit and obey will grow and produce fruit and have greater reward in Heaven and postion in the Kingdom of God. Those who do not grow will not, yet still be saved.

 

[tomspug]

I can't think of anywhere in the Bible where we're told that repentance is admitting that you have no control over your salvation.

The Jews repented of their sins by making blood offerings in the old testament. Jesus's death ELIMINATED THAT DEBT AND THEREFORE THE REQUIREMENT OF ATONEMENT. If you continue to treat repentance as something that you must do over and over again, then Christ died FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL!

Seriously, if you think that repentance is as simple and tepid as saying 'you're sorry' as many times as you can than you can go back in time to before we had the salvation of Christ, because that's what they did BEFORE CHRIST.

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

I'm glad you've formed a theology based on one verse in the Bible, and I believe that Mr. Peanut is correct in the exegesis she has heard. Paul gives no indication that 'third heaven' can be translated as 'third level of heaven'. If you read the verses surrounding it, it sounds more like Paul is referring to 'third heaven' as 'paradise'. You have absolutely no way of proving an entire theology of multiple heavens around one verse.

Also, Paul was an apologist, not a prophet. You better choose your sources of revelation more carefully. Paul never claimed he was receiving divine revelation from God. He was merely writing apologetics for the beliefs that were already in place.

 

[Smoke]

I'm glad you've formed a theology based on one verse in the Bible,

Sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't done any such thing. I don't believe in the Mormon doctrine any more than I believe in yours. I was just pointing out that Paul does mention "the third heaven." I haven't formed a theology based on that verse, nor would I be willing to do as you seem eager to do, and form a theology based on something Mr. Peanut has read somewhere but can't remember where.

Also, Paul was an apologist, not a prophet. You better choose your sources of revelation more carefully. Paul never claimed he was receiving divine revelation from God. He was merely writing apologetics for the beliefs that were already in place.

Is that your position, then, that Paul's writings aren't divinely inspired? It's refreshing to hear that from a Christian.

 

[tomspug]

Yep, it's true. Paul quoted Jesus and his knowledge of the Old Testament as the authority of his writings. He was a very scholarly individual and certainly didn't consider himself a 'prophet'. If anything, he's an early version of apologists such as C.S. Lewis. Although Paul was also a very strong evangelist as well, spending a large portion of his life travelling around the Mediterranean, building churches.

His letters were written for the purpose of helping churches identify the major truths of Christ's life and the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. However, I didn't say his writings weren't 'inspired'. He had remarkable insight in his writings, which I believe came from God.

(and I do apologize for jumping to a conclusion)

 

[Katzpur]

The Jews repented of their sins by making blood offerings in the old testament. Jesus's death ELIMINATED THAT DEBT AND THEREFORE THE REQUIREMENT OF ATONEMENT. If you continue to treat repentance as something that you must do over and over again, then Christ died FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL!

That is probably the stupidest statement I've ever heard a Christian make.

1. Repent of your sins.
2. Believe in Christ.
3. Note date and time of when you were saved.
4. Go on to live any damned way you please, because Christ made it possible for you to do so, and you wouldn't want to waste His suffering.

Important: Under no conditions must you repeat steps steps 1 through 3. Never again feel remorse for having fallen short and make no effort whatsoever at living a better life. In other words, make good and sure that Christ died for a good reason.

Seriously, if you think that repentance is as simple and tepid as saying 'you're sorry' as many times as you can than you can go back in time to before we had the salvation of Christ, because that's what they did BEFORE CHRIST.

And seriously, if you think for one minute that I said what you're accusing me of having said, you need to work on your reading skills.

 

[tomspug]

Again, Katzpur (i'll ignore the name-calling), take it up with the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN CHURCH.

The dogma may be confusing to you because, as a Mormon, your concept of sin is different, but it's very well explained by Paul, who had to deal with the confusion between Judaism pre-Messiah and post-Messiah.

Also, your view of repentance is one-dimensional. Salvation is obtained by accepting Jesus as your Savior, meaning that you are victorious over death. Paul calls this the transfer from being slaves of Sin to slaves of Christ. We then live our lives according to Christ's teaching as a slave to our salvation. To deny that would be hypocrisy (also known as luke-warm faith, which Jesus had harsh words for). But to continue to live as a slave to sin (always worried about death, for the wages of sin is death) is pointless. It's not harmful, just there's no point. Instead of living a life by the rules of sin (thou shalt not this and that...) you are free to concentrate not on yourself but on others.

Think about it, how can you truly be free if salvation isn't permanent? If you have to continuously worry about salvation after accepting Christ, how is it any different than the way the Jews were before Christ? If you still don't get it, read Romans. It's in the Bible for a reason, and it's CERTAINLY not stupid.

 

[Katzpur]

Again, Katzpur (i'll ignore the name-calling)...

Thank you, and in case you misunderstood, I didn't call you names, either. I merely stated my opinion about a statement you made.

...take it up with the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN CHURCH.

The "entire Christian Church"? Now that would be a real trick, wouldn't it? In case you hadn't noticed, the "entire Christian Church" is so fragmented it's not even funny. Well over 1 billion Catholic Christians, who make up at least half of the world's Christians today, don't believe that repentance is a one-time thing any more than I do. But I guess you're going to tell me Catholics aren't real Christians now, aren't you?

The dogma may be confusing to you because, as a Mormon, your concept of sin is different, but it's very well explained by Paul, who had to deal with the confusion between Judaism pre-Messiah and post-Messiah.

No, your dogma isn't at all confusing. It's just wrong.

Also, your view of repentance is one-dimensional.

Don't tell me what my view of repentance is when you clearly haven't the foggiest idea what the word really means.

Think about it, how can you truly be free if salvation isn't permanent?

Salvation comes to those who, having accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ, endure to the end. If salvation is given to those who endure to the end, it can't very well be anything but permanent.

If you have to continuously worry about salvation after accepting Christ, how is it any different than the way the Jews were before Christ?

Who's worried? Did I say I was worried? I don't think I did. Because guess what? I'M NOT WORRIED.

If you still don't get it, read Romans.

Getting it and agreeing with you are obviously two entirely different things.

It's in the Bible for a reason, and it's CERTAINLY not stupid.

Nothing in the Bible is stupid. Your interpretation of what the Bible says, on the other hand...

 

[Mr. Peanut]

That is probably the stupidest statement I've ever heard a Christian make.

1. Repent of your sins.
2. Believe in Christ.
3. Note date and time of when you were saved.
4. Go on to live any damned way you please, because Christ made it possible for you to do so, and you wouldn't want to waste His suffering.

That is very funny! Of course only a fool would believe that. Perhaps a better sequence may be:

1. Believe in Christ. (repent-one-time-unto salvation-change from non-belief to belief) greek METANOEO.
2. Repent daily. (a continual turning from sin as the Spirit leads you while "in grace", not to obtain or keep salvation, but to grow) greek METANOYA.

Metanoeo means to change one's mind. We see ourselves as sinners in need of a Saviour, and believe in Christ for salvation--a one time event.

Metanoya is a change of heart/mind toward a specific sin and even in general, to the point one turns from that sin, breaking free of it--an on-going process.

Metamelomai is another form in which although one is remorseful, sorrowful for their sin, and sees the bitter end of it, they do not turn from it.

People who have repented unto salvation, Metanoeo, throughout their Christian walk, will exhibit both Metanoya and Metamelomai. They will be convicted of, sorry for, and break free of some sins, and some they may never break free of. As long as we live in this body of flesh and sin, we will always be in this struggle. To truly grow and become useful we must seek to break free of sin. Be not afraid, God knows how to remove the dross and preserve and refine the silver!

 

[tomspug]

Seriously, Katzpur. You're treating my argument as if it is unique. It's not.

I'm sorry if you don't agree with it, but again, it is Paul's argument, not mine. I didn't make up the 'slave to sin'/'slave to Christ' argument. And I have never argued that sinning stops being wrong after you accept Christ's resurrection, but sinning no longer damns you.

I'm sorry that you don't agree with me, but i cannot tolerate you pretending that you have never heard about this before. This is a firm belief of the evangelical church (Catholic's DO believe in multiple levels of heaven, though, which is another discussion altogether, but they also believe that salvation is one-time acceptance because it's so clearly in the Bible). I'm sorry if you think the belief is 'stupid', but if you don't believe me, ask any well-educated pastor. Anyone that has properly read the book of Romans knows this.

I am not a pastor, and I don't have the education to argue this much farther, but what I do know is that I am arguing an extremely wide-held viewpoint, not some corner-pocket theology that you seem to think it is. I'll present the analogy one more time... Seriously, it's ALL OVER ROMANS.

Slave to Sin (or, slave to the law): A slave to sin is ruled by death. The consequences of sin loom over them and they struggle to follow the law as best they can, because, as Paul argues, THE LAW is what damns us, not sin. God created the law because it would be impossible to follow, damning all of mankind for their sin. Law = our Master

Slave to Christ: God sent himself in human form as a blood offering for humanity (because only a perfect life could follow the entire law and therefore defeat the law, sin, and death). The temple split in half after Christ's death as a symbol of the destruction of the temple (the purpose of which was to make blood offerings for the sinful, because its purpose was no longer necessary). By God's will and prophecy, Christ's death covered every man created by God, a complete gift, not something that could be 'attained'. Thus death was defeated, for all would be given eternal life. It is an act of love.

However, like all gifts, it must first be accepted. Christ then becomes our master, replacing the Law, and we live according to his will. Christ gave two commandments: love others, and love God. This, he said, summed up the law and the prophets.

So, if you want to argue further against this, here are some things you need to address:

1) Why was the temple split in half after Christ's death if not for the reason I stated above?

2) What other way should I interpret Paul's analogy of slave of law vs. slave of Christ?

3) What exactly did Christ's death accomplish if not to fulfill the prophecies of blood 'atonement'?

4) Do you agree with Paul that it is the law that damns us, not sin?

(P.S. I just spent the last four months studying the Book of Romans with a group of Christians using a bible study written by an extremely well-respected theologian using the King James Version, so all of these things that I'm arguing are fresh in my mind and are most definitely NOT something I came up with on my own).

 

[DallasApple]

Obviously we are supposed to ask forgiveness for our sins...When Jesus was asked how should we pray...right in the prayer was "forgive us our trespasses"...I think the idea is once we ask we are forgivien and it is forgotten by God..In other words lets just say I lie aobut someting..I feel convicted and remorseful..I sincerely as God to forgive me in Christ name I pray.....He offers that to me I am forgiven...Now I dont then have to keep askign every single day for Him to forgive me that same lie..He has forgotten about it..The idea of repentence woud be for me to stop lying.."niether do I condemn you now go and sin no more"...I dont thing Jesus meant for the woman in the well will never committ any sin ever again..He knew we are sinners thats why He paid for our sins with His blood..So that we can ask God in His sons name to forgive us..But when he said to the woman sin no more I think He was askign her to repent from adultery specifically..That was the crime He released her from and He was askign her to stop it.

Also if we werent going to sin anymore once saved...why then when asked how many times are we supposed to forgive our brother in a day Jesus said 70x7....But I dont beleive we can "willfully" sin every single day and expect that Jesus will recognize us when we meet Him..There has to be conscious effort to repent...Obviously we stumble..Jesus knew we would...Even in our thought life we can sin..But He wants us to go to Him with it ,confess to Him and ask for help...Not say.."sorry Jesus please forgive me" and then go on sinning the same sin as if we have a free pass...

He also wants us to extend and offer forgiveness to each other.If we cant forgive each other how then can we expect Him to forgive us..

But repentence is imperative..Even if its not overnight..We have to strive for that..Working out our salvation in trembling and fear I believe.....

Blessings

Dallas

 

[ChristineES]

I don't know about any other Christians, but I ask for forgiveness every time I sin. Even if an expletive accidentally goes past my lips, I say "Sorry, God".
I thought that was part of the faith. Even though I have faith, it does not mean I suddenly stop being a human being. I am still an imperfect flesh human and I still sin sometimes. Repenting is just being sorry for your sin and promising never to do it again. It takes a few seconds to repent. I don't see how anyone can say they only repent once, but maybe I am missing something.

 

[tomspug]

I never said that it is OK to stop sinning after they are 'saved', but once you are 'saved' you are 'saved'. I found this great sermon by John Wesley that goes through the whole thing quite effectively.

Sermon 1 - Salvation By Faith

Romans 3:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul says that neither the present or the future can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, so if we accept that love, then we never lose it.

1John 3
1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

John believes that our actions reflect our hearts. So if someone thinks they are saved but keeps on living as if they are not, are they really saved?

But this creates a dilemma, because we DO continue to sin, even after we accept Christ. Paul addresses this as well. Because our bodies are still 'of the world' we will always be plagued by the desire to sin. Paul said, "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." Not until we are reunited in Christ, either in death or in the Second Coming, will we be totally free from sin. Our souls are free from death because of sin's defeat in Christ, so death is actually a victory for God!

 

[ChristineES]

I am under the belief, too, that we cannot lose our salvation once we have it. I have gotten into many debates on Christian forums about that. The debate always ends without a winner.

 

[DallasApple]

I don't know about any other Christians, but I ask for forgiveness every time I sin. Even if an expletive accidentally goes past my lips, I say "Sorry, God".
I thought that was part of the faith. Even though I have faith, it does not mean I suddenly stop being a human being. I am still an imperfect flesh human and I still sin sometimes. Repenting is just being sorry for your sin and promising never to do it again. It takes a few seconds to repent. I don't see how anyone can say they only repent once, but maybe I am missing something.

I agree..What your talkign about when you said you ask for forgiveness ongoingly??Thats awesome..You are basically having a conversation with the Lord at all times in a sense..the Holy Spirit in you is saying HEY KNOCK KNOCK ...and you hear that and you answer right then and there...you feel convicted...but Jesus is RIGHT there to take it from you..you hand it to Him with an apology and this pleases Him..He knows you well... ...And it seems to me when you are that in touch and in conversation and reflection of the Lord and yourself...you just might "sin less" ..Not be "sinless" but "sin .....less".....You develop an ability to recognize your own sin much more sharply...An acute self sinning filter so to speak..Like you catch your self if you do and HOPEFULLY you catch your self in time adn avoid the sin alltogether...You become more humble and less pride filled..And embrace the gift offered to you..You just lean in to the Lord..Let Him be your guide..And remembering too...He already knows our struggles and he has mercy and grace for us...

Thats why we shoudl always pray...to not be tempted in the first place..Pray the temptations are never before us..That cant always be....so then we pray to resist it when its before us...We dont have the strength on our own...

Blessings

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

I am under the belief, too, that we cannot lose our salvation once we have it. I have gotten into many debates on Christian forums about that. The debate always ends without a winner.

Well Im even worse than that...I have a really hard time beilieving that everyone but Christians are going to hell...God created all of us...Why does he keep letting little babies be born that are dommed to eternal seperation from Him?????

I've been accused of possibly not beign a "true" Christian because this thinking I have troubles me..I can not wrap my mind around it...I went to a Buddhist Temple..I watched these monks...As I looked at them...I thought...WHY woudl God send them to hell?????????....They are peaceful .....they harm NO ONE....


Blessings

Dallas

 

[Katzpur]

That is very funny! Of course only a fool would believe that.

And yet tomspug did not deny that this is exactly what he believes. You do the math.

 

[tomspug]

And yet tomspug did not deny that this is exactly what he believes. You do the math.

I think you missed her point. You were the one that came up with that logic. No one in their right mind would believe that.

(maybe you didn't bother to read my later posts... did you?)

I never said that it is OK to stop sinning after they are 'saved'

Oops! Guess you didn't.