Christian: Do you deserve to go to heaven?

[Katzpur]

Well Im even worse than that...I have a really hard time beilieving that everyone but Christians are going to hell...

That doesn't mean you're worse than anybody else. All that means is that you're not a self-righteous snob.

God created all of us...Why does he keep letting little babies be born that are dommed to eternal seperation from Him?????

He doesn't, and you obviously have figured that part out.

I've been accused of possibly not beign a "true" Christian because this thinking I have troubles me..

Well, I'm accused of not being a true Christian every day, but I don't let it bother me too much. Just stop and ask yourself, "When I stand before God to be judged, whose permission is He going to ask before He admits me to Heaven? Is He going to take a poll of all the people who've told me I'm not a real Christian, and let them decide what my eternal fate should be?"

I can not wrap my mind around it...I went to a Buddhist Temple..I watched these monks...As I looked at them...I thought...WHY woudl God send them to hell?????????....They are peaceful .....they harm NO ONE....

Why would you want to wrap your mind around a false doctrine anyway? God's not going to send them to Hell. What kind of a loving Father in Heaven would do that?

 

[Reverend Rick]

It could be worse, you could be Catholic and cuss just as you stumble off a cliff and fall to your death.

I was joking folks, I hold no bias against any faith. Well, I don't consider atheism a faith, but that is another subject.

Have I offended everyone yet? I am an equal opportunity offender.

I could just imagine Paul and James having a debate on the internet, that would be intense!

OK, enough rambling. Joke time.

A man arrives in heaven and Saint Peter is showing him around. They go down a hall and in one room there were the Catholics and down the hall, the Baptists. LDS on this side of the hall and Jehovah's Witnesses on the other side. Many many rooms were down this hall. One room the door was closed. Who is inside there, the new arrival asked? Those are the Pentecostals, Saint Peter replied. Be very quiet, they think they are the only people here!

Seriously, I can see God laughing at us all thinking we understand how everything works and what heaven is really like. Put your trust in the Lord, not man's interpretation of the scriptures! A truly loving God would not be insulted when a Christian repents over and over nor would he burn you in hell for believing a little differently if you felt this was true to your heart.

Jesus Christ is a personal savior and how we worship him is not regulated to one exact method.

Now I can just hear someone saying once saved always saved while they have sex with strangers gambling and drinking all weekend. I never implied that! I would suggest those folks make a fruit inspection, (book of James).

Surely no one is saying that we have to think exactly like one exact way to see our savior, right?

 

[DallasApple]

All I know is Im not Catholic...

But I love Saint Francis of Assiri...He loved the animals...

And Mary mother of God is kind of cute :yes: too...

Blessings


Dallas

 

[Katzpur]

Have I offended everyone yet? I am an equal opportunity offender.

Not yet, but you've made me laugh.

A truly loving God would not be insulted when a Christian repents over and over nor would he burn you in hell for believing a little differently if you felt this was true to your heart.

You got it, Rick! I agree 100%!

Now I can just hear someone saying once saved always saved while they have sex with strangers gambling and drinking all weekend.

Good point (although it may offend some !)

 

[Katzpur]

All I know is Im not Catholic...

But I love Saint Francis of Assiri...He loved the animals...

Me too! Check out my title!

 

[DallasApple]

Me too! Check out my title!

Meow meow meow meow....

Meow meow meow meow....

Meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow....



http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/andrew010766/IMG_0941.jpg


Apple....

Blessings

Dallas

 

[Katzpur]

Meow meow meow meow....

Meow meow meow meow....

Meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow....



http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/andrew010766/IMG_0941.jpg


Apple....

Blessings

Dallas

Ahhh, cute! I had a cat that looked just like that!

Okay, guys... Resume your argument. Sorry for the interruption.

 

[DallasApple]

Let the argument resume!!!

(whats the argument??)

Oh yeah...once saved always saved...???

Commence!!


Blessings

Dallas

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Let the argument resume!!!

(whats the argument??)

Oh yeah...once saved always saved...???

Commence!!


Blessings

Dallas

Christine, Tom, Dallas, Kat, Rev, I just wanted to say to you all that I have enjoyed your posts on this thread. Argument, yuck. I think we were discussing the idea that none of us deserves salvation. This is why Eternal Security makes sense. Having done nothing to earn or deserve it, we can do nothing to maintain or keep it. To say we can do something to add to what Christ has done detracts from what he did. To say we can sin enough to lose it also detracts from God's perfect holiness. Charles Stanley said that if God's holiness compels him to take back the gift of eternal life from certain believers, one of two things is true: Either God compromises his holiness for a time--through overlooking their small sins--or man's good works can meet God's requirements for holiness, at least for a short period, in which case, Christ died needlessly.

In his book Eternal Security, Can you be sure? p.102-3, Stanley says this:

The doctrine of eternal security is supported by the belief that God is so infinitely holy and good that there is nothing--not one thing--we can do to attain or maintain our salvation. Salvation in every facet is by grace. It is a gift from start to finish. God's holiness is so far out of our league that even the best of our good deeds carries no weight in matters of salvation. The prophet proclaimed,

For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. Is 64:6

People who want to do away with eternal security based on the argument that a sinning Christian is so offensive to the holiness of God that he cannot be tolerated both elevate the works of man and depreciate the holiness of God. How? By introducing into the salvation model the necessity of good works to maintain one's salvation...Once good works are introduced in any fashion as a part of the salvation process, we are assuming a similarity in the moral goodness of man and God. In doing so, God becomes less separate or holy than in the salvation model where man's works had nothing to do with salvation. To introduce man's holiness is to deemphasize the holiness of God. To speak of man's moral efforts in conjunction with God's moral perfection is to lessen the contrast and thus downgrade God's holiness. The doctrine of eternal security does not detract from or reduce the holiness of God. On the contrary, eternal security allows God's holiness to stand in its purest form, free from the feeble attempts of man to merit divine acceptance.

 

[Katzpur]

Christine, Tom, Dallas, Kat, Rev, I just wanted to say to you all that I have enjoyed your posts on this thread. Argument, yuck. I think we were discussing the idea that none of us deserves salvation. This is why Eternal Security makes sense. Having done nothing to earn or deserve it, we can do nothing to maintain or keep it. To say we can do something to add to what Christ has done detracts from what he did. To say we can sin enough to lose it also detracts from God's perfect holiness. Charles Stanley said that if God's holiness compels him to take back the gift of eternal life from certain believers, one of two things is true: Either God compromises his holiness for a time--through overlooking their small sins--or man's good works can meet God's requirements for holiness, at least for a short period, in which case, Christ died needlessly.

In his book Eternal Security, Can you be sure? p.102-3, Stanley says this:

The doctrine of eternal security is supported by the belief that God is so infinitely holy and good that there is nothing--not one thing--we can do to attain or maintain our salvation. Salvation in every facet is by grace. It is a gift from start to finish. God's holiness is so far out of our league that even the best of our good deeds carries no weight in matters of salvation. The prophet proclaimed,

For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. Is 64:6

People who want to do away with eternal security based on the argument that a sinning Christian is so offensive to the holiness of God that he cannot be tolerated both elevate the works of man and depreciate the holiness of God. How? By introducing into the salvation model the necessity of good works to maintain one's salvation...Once good works are introduced in any fashion as a part of the salvation process, we are assuming a similarity in the moral goodness of man and God. In doing so, God becomes less separate or holy than in the salvation model where man's works had nothing to do with salvation. To introduce man's holiness is to deemphasize the holiness of God. To speak of man's moral efforts in conjunction with God's moral perfection is to lessen the contrast and thus downgrade God's holiness. The doctrine of eternal security does not detract from or reduce the holiness of God. On the contrary, eternal security allows God's holiness to stand in its purest form, free from the feeble attempts of man to merit divine acceptance.

Excellent post, Peanut. I appreciate the way your expressed your point of view. I wish I had the time to comment right now, but I don't. I will get back to you later, though. :yes:

 

[Mr. Peanut]

And yet tomspug did not deny that this is exactly what he believes. You do the math.

I don't want to get in you two's argument. I am sure tom's math would be as mine, that first we repent, not of our sins, but of our disbelief in Christ, unto belief in Christ--a one time event. Then we daily repent of our sins as the Holy Spirit leads us, not for salvation, but for growth. As I said earlier:

1. one-time repentance-matenoeo-from unbelief to belief in Christ for salvation.
2. daily repentance-matenoya-as the Spirit reveals where we fall short.

In this one-time repentance, when one turns to belief in Christ, they are also, in admitting their undeserving, sinful state and need of a Saviour, turning from, changing their mind about sin as well. But we do not confuse this with the false notion that we must first resolve to never sin, "repent of our sins" THEN "trust Christ". Rather we "trust Christ" to have paid for all our sins, thus we have a change of mind about our sin, THEN we daily repent of our sins as the Spirit leads us.

Metanoeo: Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.... repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Hebrews 6:1b

Metanoya: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:19...My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord...For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, Hebrews 12:5b-7a

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15

 

[tomspug]

Christine, Tom, Dallas, Kat, Rev, I just wanted to say to you all that I have enjoyed your posts on this thread. Argument, yuck. I think we were discussing the idea that none of us deserves salvation. This is why Eternal Security makes sense. Having done nothing to earn or deserve it, we can do nothing to maintain or keep it. To say we can do something to add to what Christ has done detracts from what he did. To say we can sin enough to lose it also detracts from God's perfect holiness. Charles Stanley said that if God's holiness compels him to take back the gift of eternal life from certain believers, one of two things is true: Either God compromises his holiness for a time--through overlooking their small sins--or man's good works can meet God's requirements for holiness, at least for a short period, in which case, Christ died needlessly.

In his book Eternal Security, Can you be sure? p.102-3, Stanley says this:

The doctrine of eternal security is supported by the belief that God is so infinitely holy and good that there is nothing--not one thing--we can do to attain or maintain our salvation. Salvation in every facet is by grace. It is a gift from start to finish. God's holiness is so far out of our league that even the best of our good deeds carries no weight in matters of salvation. The prophet proclaimed,

For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. Is 64:6

People who want to do away with eternal security based on the argument that a sinning Christian is so offensive to the holiness of God that he cannot be tolerated both elevate the works of man and depreciate the holiness of God. How? By introducing into the salvation model the necessity of good works to maintain one's salvation...Once good works are introduced in any fashion as a part of the salvation process, we are assuming a similarity in the moral goodness of man and God. In doing so, God becomes less separate or holy than in the salvation model where man's works had nothing to do with salvation. To introduce man's holiness is to deemphasize the holiness of God. To speak of man's moral efforts in conjunction with God's moral perfection is to lessen the contrast and thus downgrade God's holiness. The doctrine of eternal security does not detract from or reduce the holiness of God. On the contrary, eternal security allows God's holiness to stand in its purest form, free from the feeble attempts of man to merit divine acceptance.

Very well constructed post and with such clarity! Thank you for your post.

I agree that any effort on man's part to add or take away from the perfection of grace only dilutes its purpose. It kind of reminds me of the adage "the best laid plans of mice and men".

I'm reminded of the Tower of Babel, where mankind attempted to construct a fortress that would be so great as to touch upon heaven. It seems that mankind has always struggled to try to be 'like God' in their own way and fail. We desire so badly to return to the Garden of Eden that we will take any road to get there. Grace grants us a freedom that we could never attain on our own.

 

[Katzpur]

Christine, Tom, Dallas, Kat, Rev, I just wanted to say to you all that I have enjoyed your posts on this thread.

And I've enjoyed yours!

I think we were discussing the idea that none of us deserves salvation. This is why Eternal Security makes sense. Having done nothing to earn or deserve it, we can do nothing to maintain or keep it.

Please don't think I am just trying to be difficult, because I do understand what you're saying -- more or less. I just want to try to add one more dimension to the way you're looking at this. You say that we have done nothing to earn or deserve salvation. I agree with you to the extent that we have all sinned and have therefore alienated ourselves from God. Being imperfect, we are incapable of restoring that relationship to what it once was. As hard as we might try, we are powerless to make things right again. Therefore, every single solitary one of us is in need of a Savior, someone who has everything that we lack, and is therefore in a position to be able to atone for our wrongdoings. That individual is Jesus Christ. We have done nothing to obligate Him to pay the price to redeem us. He simply loved us so much that He willingly gave up His life to reconcile us with God, our Father in Heaven.

When you say that we have done nothing to earn this great gift, though, you are failing to acknowledge that we had to believe in His power to save us. You, as a Christian, probably believe that He will save only those who have accepted Him as their Savior and who have faith in Him. If we truly had to do nothing, we wouldn't have to believe. He would save all mankind, regardless of whether they believed in Him or not. Obviously, you feel that we must trust in Him to be saved. Therefore, we really have done something, not to merit His grace, but to make it operational in our lives. You also speak of repentance in conjunction with one's initial acceptance of His gift. That's another thing we must do. I'm assuming you don't believe that faith without remorse for our sins is good enough, but that both are necessary. I'm saying that if we must initially have faith and repent of our sins in order to "be saved," we must continue to have faith and repent of our sins in order to continue to "be saved." It would not make the slightest bit of sense to me to believe otherwise.

To say we can do something to add to what Christ has done detracts from what he did. To say we can sin enough to lose it also detracts from God's perfect holiness.

I've had this same conversations with Evangelical Christians on many occasions and have never been able to make my perspective understood. Maybe I'll be more successful this time around. At least it appears as if you are actually trying to have a dialogue instead of an argument. Jesus Christ said to us, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." That's not merely a suggestion; it's a commandment. We have been commanded to be perfect, to set as our goal being as our Father in Heaven is. That doesn't mean we have the capability to do so here and now. Obviously, having sinned, we aren't perfect, nor can we be perfect on our own. Why, though, would Jesus give us a commandment that was impossible for us to obey? Why would He set a goal for us if He didn't want us to do everything in our power to reach? From my perspective, everything we do to follow that commandment adds to what Jesus did; it doesn't detract from what He did! There is no way in the world that any of us could detract from God's perfect holiness. We don't have that kind of power. But when we earnestly try to do what we can to "be perfect," we are honoring Him. What father would not want his children to be all that it is within their power to be? What father would want his children to sit back and do less than their best and rely on him to accomplish what he has given them the ability to do for themselves? We can't be perfect without Christ, but we can be perfect in Christ -- provided we do more than merely offer lip service to Him.

Charles Stanley said that if God's holiness compels him to take back the gift of eternal life from certain believers, one of two things is true: Either God compromises his holiness for a time--through overlooking their small sins--or man's good works can meet God's requirements for holiness, at least for a short period, in which case, Christ died needlessly.

I'm sorry, but I don't know who Charles Stanley is, but I don't agree with him. I don't think God would take back anything from a believer, but then I feel as if a believer is also a doer. Sure, we make mistakes, but when we do, we can't simply say, "Oh, well. Christ has paid for that sin so it doesn't matter." We have to say instead, "I'm sorry, Lord. Forgive me. I will try to be more obedient in the future. Thank you for your willingness to give me yet another chance to live as you have told me to live." God's requirement is not that we do a certain number of good works and He won't overlook even the smallest sins. But He does expect to be able to see evidence of our love for Him in how we serve one another.

Once good works are introduced in any fashion as a part of the salvation process, we are assuming a similarity in the moral goodness of man and God. In doing so, God becomes less separate or holy than in the salvation model where man's works had nothing to do with salvation. To introduce man's holiness is to deemphasize the holiness of God. To speak of man's moral efforts in conjunction with God's moral perfection is to lessen the contrast and thus downgrade God's holiness.

The way I see it, once good works are introduced it lifts man and glorifies God simultaneously. We are, after all, the offspring of God. We are His sons and daughters, created in His image. How in the world could our striving to obey the commandment to "be perfect" in any way de-emphasize God's holiness? He has given us the potential to become so much more than most of us will ever become. Why would any of us want to disappoint Him?

The doctrine of eternal security does not detract from or reduce the holiness of God. On the contrary, eternal security allows God's holiness to stand in its purest form, free from the feeble attempts of man to merit divine acceptance.

Divine acceptance is ours already, not because of anything we've done but because of God's nature. There is no greater way in which we can honor God than to make Him our role model.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

And I've enjoyed yours!


When you say that we have done nothing to earn this great gift, though, you are failing to acknowledge that we had to believe in His power to save us.

Hi, I am in a bit of a hurry, so pardon if this is hard to understand. We had to have faith to have believed, yes. But faith is not a 'work'. Grace saves us, faith is the agent. Just like faith in an airbag does not save us, the airbag saves us. Actually, Ephesians says that "God... because of his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)..." So the reason God saved us is because he loved us. How he saved us, was by grace, an undeserved series of events enacted for our benefit. So, God does not say that by our great and abiding faith with which we trusted him, he saved us. Faith is not the reason God saves us. Love is the reason. The moment we excercised our faith, grace was applied, the blood was applied, Christ's righteousness was applied and we were forever justified. We do not deserve it the moment we get it and nor for one moment after, for all eternity.

I'm saying that if we must initially have faith and repent of our sins in order to "be saved," we must continue to have faith and repent of our sins in order to continue to "be saved." It would not make the slightest bit of sense to me to believe otherwise.

God is faithful even when ours wavers. The Bible speaks of those who have believed, past tense. It is like the child jumping from the burning house into his Father's arms, the moment he jumps he is saved. We are kept by the power of God, not our own power. A line in Timothy says that though we are faithless, yet he abides faithful, he cannot deny himself. He lives in us, he will not deny himself. To rely on our own faithfulness is to put it all back on us to save ourselves instead of leaving the matter of our salvation to Christ. Christ saved us, he did it all, he made the great swap, having paid for our sins and imputed his righteousness to us, we must rest at peace and complete trust in that only. Otherwise we will be miserable, wondering if we are doing enough, being holy enough to somehow help Jesus save us. Jesus did it all and he says for all who are weary and heavy laden to come to him and he will give us rest. Christ has saved us to the uttermost. Period. Once we recoginize how secure we are in that, then we can really serve him. Love is a better motivator than fear.

Jesus Christ said to us, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." That's not merely a suggestion; it's a commandment.

The Bible says that He has perfected forever those who are being made holy. Positionaly we are perfect with Christ's perfectness. Because we have been made perfect, we should strive to be perfect, to walk pleasing to God. For salvation, our efforts count as nothing, it is all Christ's perfect righteousness and work on the cross that saved us. So to strive to be perfect because we are saved is okay, to strive to be perfect to try to get or stay saved is incorrect.

We have been commanded to be perfect, to set as our goal being as our Father in Heaven is. That doesn't mean we have the capability to do so here and now. Obviously, having sinned, we aren't perfect, nor can we be perfect on our own. Why, though, would Jesus give us a commandment that was impossible for us to obey? Why would He set a goal for us if He didn't want us to do everything in our power to reach? From my perspective, everything we do to follow that commandment adds to what Jesus did; it doesn't detract from what He did!

We, as already born-again, are to strive to live holy lives, but this has nothing to do with our salvation, but our growth. To make it part of the salvation process does take away from what Christ did to save us, to make it part of our walk and growth honors God.

I'm sorry, but I don't know who Charles Stanley is, but I don't agree with him. I don't think God would take back anything from a believer, but then I feel as if a believer is also a doer. Sure, we make mistakes, but when we do, we can't simply say, "Oh, well. Christ has paid for that sin so it doesn't matter."

As far as salvation is concerned, the sin is paid for, but it does matter. Stanley tells more about this, as well. I will just say, Heaven will not be the same for every believer. One who has sacrificed all will have a much greater reward, riches, postion, etc. in the Kingdom than one who has done little or nothing. Sin in a believer's life has serious eternal consequences, they will suffer great loss, will weep, etc. and they will see all the things they thought important, money, pleasure, etc, in this life, be burned up one by one, and they will have nothing to show for this life, yet will be saved, "yet as by fire". They will eventually be comforted, God will wipe away the tears, but the consequences, the 'riches', their treasure in heaven, their position, privelege, and God knows what else, will be eternal in significance. The doctrine of rewards and the Judgement Seat of Christ should be very sobering to carnal Christians who do nothing for the Lord. The fact they will suffer loss yet still be saved is a strong verse for eternal security.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello Mr. P. Thanks for your comments.

We had to have faith to have believed, yes. But faith is not a 'work'.

I disagree. For some, having faith is very difficult. It requires much more of them than all of the other works of righteousness they could possibly do. It involves a conscious decision and the will to believe that which cannot be seen or proven.

Grace saves us, faith is the agent.

I believe that grace saves us, too. But I believe that both faith in Christ and faithfulness to Christ are the agents.

Just like faith in an airbag does not save us, the airbag saves us.

But getting into a car without an airbag and expecting it to save us wouldn't make a lot of sense, would it?

Faith is not the reason God saves us. Love is the reason.

I could not possibly agree more.

The moment we excercised our faith, grace was applied, the blood was applied, Christ's righteousness was applied and we were forever justified.

I believe that the moment we exercised our faith, repented of our sins, were baptized and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, Christ's grace was applied. I believe that we will be forever justified if we endure to the end. That doesn't mean never making any mistakes. It doesn't mean never wavering in our faith. It means being committed to Christ throughout our lives, as evidenced by our willingness to keep His commandments and serve our fellow human beings as He served us.

To rely on our own faithfulness is to put it all back on us to save ourselves instead of leaving the matter of our salvation to Christ. Christ saved us, he did it all, he made the great swap, having paid for our sins and imputed his righteousness to us, we must rest at peace and complete trust in that only. Otherwise we will be miserable, wondering if we are doing enough, being holy enough to somehow help Jesus save us.

I guess I still didn't get my point across. If I had, you wouldn't be suggesting that I am miserable, wondering if I'm doing enough, or being holy enough to help Jesus save me. I can assure you that I am not miserable at all. I don't wonder if I'm doing enough. And I don't think Jesus needs my help to save me. I was starting to think we might be making some headway in understanding one another, but I guess we're really not.

I will just say, Heaven will not be the same for every believer. One who has sacrificed all will have a much greater reward, riches, postion, etc. in the Kingdom than one who has done little or nothing. Sin in a believer's life has serious eternal consequences, they will suffer great loss, will weep, etc. and they will see all the things they thought important, money, pleasure, etc, in this life, be burned up one by one, and they will have nothing to show for this life, yet will be saved, "yet as by fire". They will eventually be comforted, God will wipe away the tears, but the consequences, the 'riches', their treasure in heaven, their position, privelege, and God knows what else, will be eternal in significance. The doctrine of rewards and the Judgement Seat of Christ should be very sobering to carnal Christians who do nothing for the Lord. The fact they will suffer loss yet still be saved is a strong verse for eternal security.

Well, I agree with you to some extent. I think we're using the word "saved" somewhat differently, and that that's part of the reason we're talking past one another. I don't believe that a person gets to Heaven at all based on his works or even on his beliefs. I believe that admittance to Heaven is based 100% on grace. But I do believe that where there is greater righteousness and greater faithfulness, there will be a greater reward. To me, being "saved" is not simply the opposite of being "damned." It's not just avoiding an eternity in Hell. At one end of the spectrum it does mean avoiding Hell, but at the other end, it means receiving the fulness of salvation, or the greatest treasure God has in store for us. That's what I'm working towards myself.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Hello Mr. P. Thanks for your comments.

I disagree. For some, having faith is very difficult. It requires much more of them than all of the other works of righteousness they could possibly do. It involves a conscious decision and the will to believe that which cannot be seen or proven.

I understand, yet the Bible makes a clear distinction between faith and works of righteousness, the latter of which is able to save no one.

I believe that grace saves us, too. But I believe that both faith in Christ and faithfulness to Christ are the agents.

Again, the Bible only says we are saved by grace through faith, nowhere does it say we are saved by faithfulness. Faithfulness has to do with our walk in grace and whether we will grow and produce fruit, hence rewards and being told "well done...", or whether we will be so irresponsible and carnal we will not be able to be used to further God's will and kingdom and will be as castaways, not from salvation, but from any use to God and will suffer loss in this world and the next, as unfaithful stewards of what the Lord has given us.

But getting into a car without an airbag and expecting it to save us wouldn't make a lot of sense, would it?

Yes, just as having sincerity and faith is great, but useless if placed in something that cannot save. It must be placed solely in Jesus and his redemptive work on the cross, and nothing else added.

I could not possibly agree more.

Cool beans!

I believe that the moment we exercised our faith, repented of our sins, were baptized and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, Christ's grace was applied. I believe that we will be forever justified if we endure to the end.

That adds a lot of extra things to having simply believed in Christ. The jailer asked what he must do to be saved and was told to believe in Jesus. In John, we are told numerous times to simply believe in Jesus, "even to them who believe in his name." Also, we were forever justified in God's sight the moment we trusted Christ, for it is not "enduring to the end" that saves us, that takes us back to putting the burden on us to earn our salvation. This phrase is in Mathew 24 and speaks of believers who believed in the Great Seven Year Tribulation and basically says if they endure to the end they will be saved, the context being from physical death. This is a much grossly mis-interpreted verse and has nothing to do with salvation. It is not that we "endure to the end", "hold out faithful", "go through with God", "the perseverance of the saints", or any other such nonsense that we are saved. We believe in Christ and he preserves us, "we are preserved in him", he is faithful to us, it is his power that keeps us, not we who keep ourselves in his hand. He holds us and nothing can take us out. Salvation is free, from beginning to end.

That doesn't mean never making any mistakes. It doesn't mean never wavering in our faith. It means being committed to Christ throughout our lives, as evidenced by our willingness to keep His commandments and serve our fellow human beings as He served us.

True, we will make mistakes, our faith will grow weak and even non-existant at times, but during those times, it is Christ who is committed to us as far as our salvation. Even at our worst, weakest times, Christ will never leave or fosake us. This is why we are able to be willing to keep his commands and serve as he served, because of this unconditional love he has for us. Many are saved, but most are not committed as they ought to be, but Praise God they are still safe and secure in their father's arms, not because of what they have done or are doing, but because of what he has done.

I guess I still didn't get my point across. If I had, you wouldn't be suggesting that I am miserable, wondering if I'm doing enough, or being holy enough to help Jesus save me. I can assure you that I am not miserable at all. I don't wonder if I'm doing enough. And I don't think Jesus needs my help to save me. I was starting to think we might be making some headway in understanding one another, but I guess we're really not.

I am not suggesting that YOU are miserable and worried whether you are doing enought to get or stay saved. I am saying many countless people have actually gone insane trying to follow doctrines, such as in the holiness movement with the "entire sanctification" bit, wherein they believe at some point they will completely be rid of the sin-nature, be uber-christians, etc. in this body in this life. Or those who struggle to "hold out faithful" or "endure to the end", and go mad wondering if they are even coming close. On the other side, there are those who feel they are doing so well that because of their own efforts and accomplishments, surely they have helped guarantee their salvation, again taking their works they did as a result of salvation to adding them to having helped their salvation, thus detracting from what the Lord did. Salvation is completely and unequivacably from Christ, from God, free and undeserved, and we cannot add our good works to it.

Well, I agree with you to some extent. I think we're using the word "saved" somewhat differently, and that that's part of the reason we're talking past one another. I don't believe that a person gets to Heaven at all based on his works or even on his beliefs. I believe that admittance to Heaven is based 100% on grace. But I do believe that where there is greater righteousness and greater faithfulness, there will be a greater reward. To me, being "saved" is not simply the opposite of being "damned." It's not just avoiding an eternity in Hell. At one end of the spectrum it does mean avoiding Hell, but at the other end, it means receiving the fulness of salvation, or the greatest treasure God has in store for us. That's what I'm working towards myself.

Ok. I understand that. The "common salvation" the Bible says that by one spirit we have all been baptized into one body, the body of Christ. All who have placed their trust in Christ for the gift of salvation are in the body of Christ, saved and secure forevermore. Those who have been saved from Hell have the fulness of salvation, just not all the rewards, position and privelege, etc. that result from our faithulness as we follow Christ, not for salvation, but because of it, not to maintain it, but because it is already accomplished. In a way we say the same thing, but in a way, we do not, as you do not believe our salvation is safe and secure, and that by some neglect, we may lose it, placing the burden on ourself. This is where I differ.

Here is an illustration. Jesus said I am in my Father and you are in me and on top of that we are sealed by the Spirit. So, imagine the Father as an impenetrable safe box. Inside that Jesus is another impenetrable safe box, and inside that is you. Outside all that, we are vacuum sealed by an impenetrable, preserving seal that cannot be broken by anyone or anygthing. A security mechanism so strong that there need never be any fear whatsoever of ever having being plucked out of. This is what the common, so great salvation is, and we ALL, (Paul speaking to the very carnal corinthians) are baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ, which is in the Father and we are sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption, eternally secure from hence-forth and forevermore.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:28-30

 

[Katzpur]

Again, the Bible only says we are saved by grace through faith, nowhere does it say we are saved by faithfulness.

On the contrary, the Bible teaches quite the opposite.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Evidently, you interpret these quite differently than I do.

At any rate, thank you for your comments and for the respectful way in which you have presented your point of view. If I do not comment further, it's just because I see us going nowhere at this point but around in circles. I believe you have presented your beliefs to the best of your ability, as have I. It looks at this point as if we're simply going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

On the contrary, the Bible teaches quite the opposite.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Evidently, you interpret these quite differently than I do.

At any rate, thank you for your comments and for the respectful way in which you have presented your point of view. If I do not comment further, it's just because I see us going nowhere at this point but around in circles. I believe you have presented your beliefs to the best of your ability, as have I. It looks at this point as if we're simply going to have to agree to disagree.

And thank you, too. I have enjoyed sharing my beliefs with you and enjoyed having the conversation with you. Since we may be closing this for now, I will not comment on each verse above and how it fits in with my beliefs. I believe we should keep the Lord's commands and obey him as well. Take care and Happy New Year!

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[tomspug]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' [/FONT]

If you add the verse afterward, it totally changes the meaning. Here he is clearly saying that people who did works alone in his name will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. [/FONT]

Jesus is clearly talking about joy in Christ in this passage, not salvation.

The Romans passage is written specifically towards the Jewish nation. Paul begins Romans by discussing the nature of the law, THEN he goes on to discuss the implications of salvation, which say that the law has no authority over us if we are saved.

And um, that Hebrews passage is referring to JESUS, who was born perfect, unlike us, who were born into sin. That passage isn't applicable to any of us at all.

As far as James goes, I think that Peanut explained fairly well that faith is not what saves us, but grace. However, I absolutely agree with James that faith without works is dead. I could not believe that someone knows the truth of Christ's mercy with their life being transformed, but it is not a criteria for salvation. They just GO together. Faith does not save us, grace saves us. It was given to us as a gift.

 

[madhatter85]

While I believe absolutely that some who have been freely saved will have greater position or rank, and reward, "treasure in Heaven", etc. I wish to adress this "third heaven". I read, and I do not remember where, that the common understanding and use in the time that was written was that the immediate sky, clouds, wind, etc, of earth, what we call the atmosphere, is the first heaven, the second heaven being where the sun, moon, and stars were seen, outer-space, and the third heaven is heaven itself.

He is talkign about the Celestial kingdom, just as he speaks here.
1 Corinthians 15:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is not just "one verse" it links with many other verses in the Bible as well. We know this to be a fact. All men will not be Resurrected equally. they will be resurrected with different glorys, and each person will be separated into thier own glory.