Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, Christ wasn't talking about the "end" of a man's life there, he was talking about the end of the world. Check it out... i addressed it... hope it sheds some light

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8154&page=23&pp=10

I'm sorry, but I disagree. A man can endure only as long as he lives. Even after we covenant with Jesus Christ to be His, Satan continues to tempt us. Those who succumb to temptation without repenting have not "endured to the end." Thus, they have chosen to break the terms of the covenant they made with their Savior. :jiggy:

 

[blueman]

We are saved by the grace of God and through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9), an often misunderstood term and not by works, which we should boast. Faith is simply the way we say yes to God's free gift of eternal life. A gift that can be taken away by my actions is no gift at all. It becomes an act of legalism. Jesus paid our sin debt on the cross more than two thousand years ago and when we accept that as fact, trusting and believing in that sacrifice, we are sealed until the day of Christ's return. 1 Peter 1:18-21 and Hebrews 9:12 gives us that assurance. Through Christs death and resurrection, we have the assurance and peace through Him. Just like we are not saved by works, neither can we lose the fate that Christ has sealed for us through His sacrifice. If that was not the case, we would be living day by day in fear, doubting our eternal security. When James makes reference to "faith without works is dead", the authors intent was not in reference to salvation. James was referring to trusting in God completely, and letting your actions reflect that in your daily life, without leaning to our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5) and perceived power. Paul reminds us of the lack of revelance of the law and works in Galations 3:6-14 to reinforce this fact. We are not saved by our works for Christ, but we will be rewarded for our works when we get to Heaven. For those who are saved, but choose not to carry forth the torch for Christ or who would choose to live a more carnal existence, are still saved. God just deals with those individuals in His way, like a father who disciplines a child for disobedience, whether adversely impacted their life through circumstances or trials or holding back blessings or something far more serious. But He does not rescind His gift that His Son laid down His life for those who believe on Him.

 

[rmarchy]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. A man can endure only as long as he lives. Even after we covenant with Jesus Christ to be His, Satan continues to tempt us. Those who succumb to temptation without repenting have not "endured to the end." Thus, they have chosen to break the terms of the covenant they made with their Savior. :jiggy:

But Katzpur, that makes you the savior. You save yourself that way. This whole book is about a savior, The Savior. Religion has no savior, it has a balance that must weigh in your favor to get into heaven. There's no glory to God that way. Christ saves you, when you rest and trust in HIS work, rest in that knowledge that HE and HIS work, HIS blood, is your passport to heaven. That knowledge should make you WANT to do good works for HIM, out of love for HIM, and not because you have to balance your scale out of fear. If there was anything you could do to work your way into heaven, then God IS A MONSTER for sending His Son to that cruel and criminal cross.

 

[blueman]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. A man can endure only as long as he lives. Even after we covenant with Jesus Christ to be His, Satan continues to tempt us. Those who succumb to temptation without repenting have not "endured to the end." Thus, they have chosen to break the terms of the covenant they made with their Savior. :jiggy:

So Katzpur, you think our salvation can be taken away by our works or lack thereof? What if I am saved through my acceptance of what Christ did for me more than 2000 years ago, but succumbed to temptation on my way to work. I get in a fatal car accident and die prior to getting a chance to ask for forgiveness. Is my fate not still with Christ in Heaven? On another note, when Jesus died for our sins on the cross, did that only cover the sins we committed up until the point we accepted Him through salvation or did He cover the sin debt once and for all, including those sins you would commit after you came to Christ? If it was a covenant (which is analogous to a contract), it would not be a gift of God as stated in Ephesians 2:8,9. I agree that we who are in Christ should repent and ask for forgiveness when we sin and since we are reminded by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us to do so, many Christians do. But God deals with unconfessed sin in different ways, taking away one's salvation does not seem to be one of them. Just like we cannot earn salvation thorugh our works, neither can we lose it by our works. Enduring to the end was a means of encouraging Christians to persevere and not be afraid but to trust in Christ completely and do not be easily swayed or threatened by persecution. Interested in your thoughts.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I am actually involved in this same disscussion on another Religion debate forum. I'll quote part of the discussion from Christian Viewpoints.com:

Christiangirl0909 (me) said: Once saved, always saved makes no sense whatsoever. What if someone was baptized when they were a young teen. They stayed faithful to God for some time. However, once in collage, this person got on drugs. They started hanging out with the wrong people. They stopped attending church, and eventually stopped believing in God.

So would this person still go to heaven just because they were baptized when they were about fifteen? If you believe in OSAS, you would have to say yes. There's no way to get around it.

If OSAS was true, people could be baptized, and then just go out and do whatever they wanted to do, but still go to Heaven. That just wouldn't make sense. We as Christians are supposed to be baptized, and then worship God with all our hearts, and strive to bring others to Jesus. If we fall away from God, or stop working for him, how could we say we are still going to Heaven?

Seldomscene (member of Christian Viewpoints.com) said: if one is saved, they are only saved once. there is only one sacrifice for sin. and that once and for all.

Christiangirl0909 said: So you're telling me someone could get baptized in church next Sunday. As they rise from the water, they say "Great! I'm saved now. That's all there is to it." They're rarely seen in church again, they never do any good works for Jesus, and are just hypocrites in general. According to OSAS, that person would go to heaven. If OSAS is true, what is the point of going to church and worshiping God? What is the point of being kind and faithful? What is the point of striving to be like Jesus? You're saved already, right? So there's nothing that you can do wrong to change that? No matter how many lies you tell, how many things you steal, or how many people you murder, you're still going to heaven?

I'm sorry, but this just makes no sense. We can't just go to church one random Sunday and be baptized, and say we are saved forever. It's not that easy.

Seldomscene said: beg your pardon...i never said one could. as a matter of fact, one could not be saved by anything you described.

if one is saved they are always saved, and i could take it a step farther and say they always were, but,...if you don't undrstand the first part...

how many times have you been saved? what is the most amont of times you have ever personally known someone to be saved?

just so you know i'm not asking a question i won't answer, i was saved once.

Christiangirl0909 said: What I'm saying is that just because you have been "saved" doesn't mean that you're going to Heaven no matter what. Ex. I'm not saying you would do this, I know that you as a Christian would probably never do this, so don't take offense. Let's just say that you decided that God doesn't exist and you're never going to church again no matter what. You deny Jesus and God until your death. However, according to OSAS, you would still go to Heaven.

So would a Christian-turned-atheist go to Heaven because they were saved as a Christian? Do you see why I have a problem with OSAS?

Maybe you could help me to understand "the first part". I can't present a good argument if I can't understand what you believe.

Also, what is your definition of "saved"? I think of it as hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and being baptized. But of course, I don't believe in OSAS.

I am currently awaiting a reply from seldomscene. Anyway, this is my view on the matter. OSAS is a very silly concept. It doesn't make sense.

 

[rmarchy]

Hi ChristianGirl, check this book out, and let me know what you think. You don't have to buy it, it's right here: http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm
for free. Give it a good, honest, open-minded read and see if it sheds some light for you. This book started it all for me years ago. I hope you enjoy it. But take some time, perhaps this weekend, and crack your Bible open along with it, and give it a good honest read.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Well since the Bible says we can fall away, I guess I'll just have to believe that we can fall away.

 

[blueman]

Only God knows our hearts and conviction to His Son. You may have questions of those who appear on the surface to be Christians and saved based on what they say, but their lives don't align with what Christ commanded us to do as believers. Did they really believe and have faith in the first place or was it the vogue thing to do? Only God knows and He is judge, not us.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Here are the updates for my debate on Christian Viewpoints.com with seldomscene. As you will see, it turned out quite well.

Seldomscene said: i can't speak for osas, (to tell the truth i have never even met the guy.)
but, if one did what you said. i don't care what rituals they chanted, prayed, confessed or went through, they were not saved. they were never saved. and they are now dead so they can't be saved.

If they are saved they couldn't be an atheist. (see above)

you can present your case with knowing mine. the two have nothing to do with each other. but, i respect your sincerety. so i will tell you....

to make it short, i believe that all who are HIS were HIS and with HIM before they ever even came here. back to HIM is where they will go after here. back from where they came. home.

Christiangirl0909 said: OK, I think I get what you're saying here. In that case, we really don't believe differant things at all, we just express the same belief in two differant ways.

You believe that if someone was baptized and everything, but falls away, they are not saved and never were. You believe that as long as someone remains faithful, they are definantly saved.

I believe that saved means to hear, believe, repent confess and be baptized. If someone is saved and falls away, they have lost their eternal life. But, like you, I believe that if someone remains faithful until death, they will definantly be saved/go to Heaven.

 

[Katzpur]

But Katzpur, that makes you the savior. You save yourself that way. This whole book is about a savior, The Savior. Religion has no savior, it has a balance that must weigh in your favor to get into heaven. There's no glory to God that way. Christ saves you, when you rest and trust in HIS work, rest in that knowledge that HE and HIS work, HIS blood, is your passport to heaven. That knowledge should make you WANT to do good works for HIM, out of love for HIM, and not because you have to balance your scale out of fear. If there was anything you could do to work your way into heaven, then God IS A MONSTER for sending His Son to that cruel and criminal cross.

rmarchy,

You certainly don't have to agree with me. I'm fine with our having a difference of opinion. But please don't try to put words in my mouth. I never claimed to be able to save myself. I never said I could do anything to work my way into Heaven and I certainly don't think God is a MONSTER! Apparently you have no interest in trying to understand my meaning. You'd rather just twist my words into something I didn't say. Nice try, but it won't work with me. I know what I believe and I do not believe what you have implied I do.

Kathryn :banghead3

 

[Katzpur]

So Katzpur, you think our salvation can be taken away by our works or lack thereof? What if I am saved through my acceptance of what Christ did for me more than 2000 years ago, but succumbed to temptation on my way to work. I get in a fatal car accident and die prior to getting a chance to ask for forgiveness. Is my fate not still with Christ in Heaven? On another note, when Jesus died for our sins on the cross, did that only cover the sins we committed up until the point we accepted Him through salvation or did He cover the sin debt once and for all, including those sins you would commit after you came to Christ? If it was a covenant (which is analogous to a contract), it would not be a gift of God as stated in Ephesians 2:8,9. I agree that we who are in Christ should repent and ask for forgiveness when we sin and since we are reminded by the Holy Spirit that dwells in us to do so, many Christians do. But God deals with unconfessed sin in different ways, taking away one's salvation does not seem to be one of them. Just like we cannot earn salvation thorugh our works, neither can we lose it by our works. Enduring to the end was a means of encouraging Christians to persevere and not be afraid but to trust in Christ completely and do not be easily swayed or threatened by persecution. Interested in your thoughts.

blueman,

You've misrepresented what I said. I did not say "our salvation can be taken away by our works or lack thereof." I simply said that the individual who claims to be Christ's and then willfully continues to sin -- without repenting -- has broken the promise he made to Christ at his baptism. God knows the condition of our hearts. He loves us and truly wants us to return to Him. He's not going to condemn anyone to Hell on a technicality, such as the one you described. Of course Jesus' atoning sacrifice paid for the sins we would commit after coming to Him -- but only so long as we are sincere in wanting to do His will. A true Christian must be willing to do more than talk the talk; he must be willing to walk the walk.

Kathryn

 

[blueman]

blueman,

You've misrepresented what I said. I did not say "our salvation can be taken away by our works or lack thereof." I simply said that the individual who claims to be Christ's and then willfully continues to sin -- without repenting -- has broken the promise he made to Christ at his baptism. God knows the condition of our hearts. He loves us and truly wants us to return to Him. He's not going to condemn anyone to Hell on a technicality, such as the one you described. Of course Jesus' atoning sacrifice paid for the sins we would commit after coming to Him -- but only so long as we are sincere in wanting to do His will. A true Christian must be willing to do more than talk the talk; he must be willing to walk the walk.

Kathryn

I agree that there needs to be some change or renewal of one's mind and behaviour as a result of following Christ. That's why I mentioned that some people say the words to salvation, because it's the "vogue thing to do" these days, but those words may not have true meaning because they really did not believe. Also, there are some "carnal Christians" out there who truly believe and have faith in Christ, but are still focused on "self" and old ways.

 

[Katzpur]

I agree that there needs to be some change or renewal of one's mind and behaviour as a result of following Christ. That's why I mentioned that some people say the words to salvation, because it's the "vogue thing to do" these days, but those words may not have true meaning because they really did not believe. Also, there are some "carnal Christians" out there who truly believe and have faith in Christ, but are still focused on "self" and old ways.

Then perhaps our viewpoints are not so different after all.

 

[leesw]

I know of a detailed article on this subject that has helped many make their own conclusions for this issue. It's at http://www.gracecentered.com/haveifallenfromgrace.htm

I thought it might help.

 

[joeboonda]

Christians are saved forever once they accept Jesus as their saviour.

1. They are born, again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (1 Peter 1:23).
2. They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).
3. His sheep have been given eternal life-they shall never perish (John 10:28).
4. Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).
5. They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).
6. The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).
7. Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
8. God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32).
9. They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10).
10. They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23).
11. The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 7:21-23).
12. God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for" their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13).
13. They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22).
14. They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (1 Corinthians 12:12-27).
15. They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (1 Peter 1 :5).
16. Their incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (1 Peter 1 :1-4).
17. They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7).
18. Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1 :7-9)
19. He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).
20. They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).
21. Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).
22. By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14).
23. They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8).
24. Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2).
25. No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29).
26. All who are justified are finally glorified-none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30).
27. In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9).
28. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37; 17:2).

Right on ! Very Good Job!!! Frubals to ya!!!:bounce

 

[Quiddity]

Apologists Gary Hoge does a wonderful job of this. Here let me paste it.
Good Luck
~Victor

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24

• “If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”
  
  “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
  
  Question:
  
  • If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses
    

1 Corinthians 11:32

• “When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”
  
  Question:
  
  • Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
    
  Extra credit:
  
  • According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
    (HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)
    

2 Timothy 2:12

• “If we disown him, he will also disown us.”
  
  Question:
  
  • If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
    

Revelation 22:14, 19

• “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
  
  Question:
  
  • If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
    

1 Timothy 3:6

• “[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”
  
  Question:
  
  • Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
    

2 Peter 2:20-21

• “For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”
  
  Bonus Essay Question:
  
  • If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?
    

Galatians 5:19-20

• “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
  
  Question:
  
  • If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
    

Romans 11:22

• “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”
  
  Question:
  
  • If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
    

1 Corinthians 15:2

• “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”
  
  Question:
  
  • If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
    

Hebrews 4:1, 11

• “Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”
  
  Question:
  
  • If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?
    
    A. Yes
    B. No
    C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
    

 

[JOSEF THE PROPHET]

Osas Is A False Teaching; Obedience Is Required For Salvation.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

Wow Victor. Great stuff there!

 

[Scuba Pete]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Victor again.

 

[oneWord]

ok, the virgins lacked oil. Without the Holy Spirit, we wouldn't even believe it. Who gives us the oil?/Spirit to believe? Who convicts us? Who melts our hearts? (stone to flesh?) Who changes our life? There is no faith without works and no works without faith. (ok, you're thinking about all the executive or phony suck-ups who do good works for self-achievement)......hmmmm God knows our hearts and what motivates us to do our 'supposed' ACTS of faith. Who changes our minds? Who gives us grace for grace? Who leads us to pray? Jonah couldn't hide. There is no such thing as luck. God speed!