Christian pacifism.

[Estro Felino]

You claim to be Catholic which officially teaches the acceptability of defensive war. But I suppose that's never stopped you from just making whatever you want up.

Anyway, in regards to my thoughts on the OP; we all agree that violence is horrible. However, in certain circumstances, I think to avoid it can be even greater an evil. Should Brittan have not fulfilled her agreed obligations to Belgium in WWI? Should Nazi Germany have been able to invade Poland with no reprisal from the Allies? Are we to allow such aggression to be unopposed out of a philosophical and moral diastase for violence? (no matter how understandable) I personally don't think so. I'm sympathetic, but I just don't think total pacifism is a realistic stance. Especially if it means essentially piggybacking on the protection of those who are willing to fight.

I don't believe in the Pope's infallibility. So, if the Pope claims the acceptability of defensive war, I claim that he's quite wrong. That's not what Jesus teaches.

As for the WW2: well, the Germans invaded Poland. so what? A Christian is supposed not to react, because the Nazis were the perpetrators, not the Polish.

there is an instrument which is more powerful than violence: the word. When the Nazis invaded Rome, the Pope did not say anything about that.
The Nazis arrested and deported lots of Jews from the Roman Jewish District. The Pope didn't say anything. even if he secretly saved lots of Jews, he was still a coward. Because he didn't use the word to protest against Hitler.

 

[Glaurung]

Of course those countries shouldn't have gone to war. No countries should be going to war. No one goes to war for noble reasons and governments always lie about it. It's always because of power and money, especially now. War doesn't make anyone safer. That's another lie they tell you to get you to support it. The world is run by a bunch of rich people who hate us "common" people and they view us as nothing but cattle. Soldiers are just cannon fodder and are thrown aside and forgotten if they make it back home.

I'm not fighting anyone's wars and I don't ask anyone to fight any wars for me.

As much as I really don't think it's all a money making conspiracy of wealthy elites (you overestimate them ) I'll accept that's nonetheless your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Although we do agree that both governments and corporations have far too much influence.

I don't believe in the Pope's infallibility.

And you don't even know what infallibility actually means, we're done.

 

[Phil25]

The "pay to Caesar..." line seems to be an example of Jesus' wit because everything actually belongs to God. Leo Tolstoy put it this way: "Not only the complete misunderstanding of Christ's teaching, but also a complete unwillingness to understand it could have admitted that striking misinterpretation, according to which the words, "To Cæsar the things which are Cæsar's," signify the necessity of obeying Cæsar. In the first place, there is no mention there of obedience; in the second place, if Christ recognized the obligatoriness of paying tribute, and so of obedience, He would have said directly, "Yes, it should be paid;" but He says, "Give to Cæsar what is his, that is, the money, and give your life to God," and with these latter words He not only does not encourage any obedience to power, but, on the contrary, points out that in everything which belongs to God it is not right to obey Cæsar."

1 Samuel 8 tells us that it was the Israelites who clamored to God for a monarchy, when God wanted to be their only King. In the end, He let them have their wish but told Samuel that the people have rejected Him.

Hmm, but does God ever do something under public pressure? Does God ever do what he thinks is wrong.

 

[Estro Felino]

And you don't even know what infallibility actually means, we're done.

what do you mean by infallibility?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hmm, but does God ever do something under public pressure? Does God ever do what he thinks is wrong.

God honors our free will. If we really want something, He'll let us have it. But we have to suffer the consequences for our actions.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As much as I really don't think it's all a money making conspiracy of wealthy elites (you overestimate them ) I'll accept that's nonetheless your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Although we do agree that both governments and corporations have far too much influence.

That is fine. There's room enough in the Church for both of us and there's always been disagreement over this in the Church.

 

[Glaurung]

what do you mean by infallibility?

It only applies when invoked ex cathedra. Look it up.

 

[CEMB]

You claim to be Catholic which officially teaches the acceptability of defensive war. But I suppose that's never stopped you from just making whatever you want up.

Anyway, in regards to my thoughts on the OP; we all agree that violence is horrible. However, in certain circumstances, I think to avoid it can be even greater an evil. Should Brittan have not fulfilled her agreed obligations to Belgium in WWI? Should Nazi Germany have been able to invade Poland with no reprisal from the Allies? Are we to allow such aggression to be unopposed out of a philosophical and moral diastase for violence? (no matter how understandable) I personally don't think so. I'm sympathetic, but I just don't think total pacifism is a realistic stance. Especially if it means essentially piggybacking on the protection of those who are willing to fight.

Thought I would add my two or three cents worth. I agree with Tlaloc. Pertinent occasion here for a quote from 'The Straight Path' - Book II, Chapter 6, on 'Courage':

...Courage is the harbinger of God’s Justice. It compels us to struggle against injustice alone when others refuse. It compels the mouth to say ‘ no’ when others say ‘yes’ and the body to remain standing when others kneel. It compels the mind to receive the world’s pain and return it with love. Blessed is he who preserves the truth against a shower of lies. The most courageous suffer alone for the benefit of all.
To struggle is to strive towards a goal despite suffering. God has given to each of us the strength to struggle and the courage to act righteously. He commands us to seek justice and struggle against injustice, to obey just laws and struggle against unjust laws, to defend just systems and struggle against unjust systems. Injustice is corruption and God demands that we struggle against corruption so that humanity may prosper.
Know when to resist and know when to yield. Step forward when justice can be attained through resistance. Step back when justice can be attained through yielding.
Know when to resist using non-violence and violence. Resist non-violently when the wrong-doer listens to his conscience or is reliant upon those he abuses for the accumulation of his authority and wealth. Either his own conscience or the fear of losing his privileges shall force him to desist. Sanity cannot exist without a conscience. A leech cannot feed without a body.
Blessed is he who turns the other cheek. Who receives the blows of the wrong-doer with silence and a steady gaze, without trembling or speaking angry words in return. Such courage gains the respect of the wrong-doer and forces him to listen to his conscience, understand the wrong he has committed, and step back onto the straight path.
Blessed is he who writes, speaks or marches to make others aware of injustice and who harnesses the strength of others to overcome injustice. Blessed is he who refuses to labour for the wrong-doer, use the wrong-doers services or consume the wrong-doer’s products. Who forces the wrong-doer to realise that he did not create, but rather stole his wealth. The wealth of the slave-owner is not his own for he did not earn it with his own hands.
Resist violently when the wrong-doer is insane and revels in the harm he causes to others. When the wrong-doer is deaf to his conscience and refuses to listen to his soul then it is right to defend oneself with fist and teeth. It is right to block the claw that threatens the eye. This is God’s Will. Blessed is he who defends himself against the abuse of others. Blessed is he who defends others with his own words and body and protects those who cannot protect themselves. God moulded the hands and the feet to protect the body and to protect other bodies.
God commands us to defend the weak and the helpless, the old men, old women and children against a wrongdoer whether that wrongdoer be a person, a corporation or a nation. The strong must protect the weak. This is the duty God has given to those who walk the straight path.
Never permit the corrupt to abuse the innocent. To do so is to condone sin and be tainted by sin. It is to step from the straight path. This is a little death worse than death itself. Better to die resisting than to accept genocide: better Warsaw than Auschwitz. Strive for a noble death...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4BKcVjkPPs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI_5IKA-jKw

 

[Sleeppy]

I am a Christian Pacifist, as well.. It is the only way to end the cycle of murder instituted many thousands of years ago. Jesus ended the cycle of my fathers, with me. Hopefully more will end the cycle in their families.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am a Christian Pacifist, as well.. It is the only way to end the cycle of murder instituted many thousands of years ago. Jesus ended the cycle of my fathers, with me. Hopefully more will end the cycle in their families.

God bless you, brother.

The violence started with Cain and it's a sickness that has plagued the entire world. It will only stop when more and more start a non-violent chain reaction that changes the world. Jesus is our representative and motivation. He chose to let the crowd take His life and prayed for them to the Father.

 

[Sleeppy]

God bless you, brother.

The violence started with Cain and it's a sickness that has plagued the entire world. It will only stop when more and more start a non-violent chain reaction that changes the world. Jesus is our representative and motivation. He chose to let the crowd take His life and prayed for them to the Father.

Yes. We still have a ways to go... May God continue to bless you as well, brother!

 

[JayJayDee]

Imagine a world where every soldier put down his weapons and told their leaders that they would "not learn war anymore"? (Isa 2:2-4)

The fact is, you cannot have a war without soldiers to fight them. If they all just said "no more killing"...."no more hatred".....imagine what could be accomplished if the resources dedicated to war were used to save lives instead of taking them....imagine!

 

[CEMB]

God bless you, brother.

The violence started with Cain and it's a sickness that has plagued the entire world. It will only stop when more and more start a non-violent chain reaction that changes the world. Jesus is our representative and motivation. He chose to let the crowd take His life and prayed for them to the Father.

Depends on what you want to achieve with non-violent resistance. If it is to survive and achieve goals such as equal rights for people and improve a society then it sometimes works, but not always. Gandhi's stance of non-violence contributed to Indian independence and Dr Martin Luther King Jr's method of non-violent protest contributed to the passing of Civil Rights legislation, but the pacificism of the Moriori didn't stop the Taranaki Maori from slaughtering them and enslaving those who survived.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Depends on what you want to achieve with non-violent resistance. If it is to survive and achieve goals such as equal rights for people and improve a society then it sometimes works, but not always. Gandhi's stance of non-violence contributed to Indian independence and Dr Martin Luther King Jr's method of non-violent protest contributed to the passing of Civil Rights legislation, but the pacificism of the Moriori didn't stop the Taranaki Maori from slaughtering them and enslaving those who survived.

Well, I think self-defense, within boundaries, is okay.

 

[Sleeppy]

Depends on what you want to achieve with non-violent resistance. If it is to survive and achieve goals such as equal rights for people and improve a society then it sometimes works, but not always. Gandhi's stance of non-violence contributed to Indian independence and Dr Martin Luther King Jr's method of non-violent protest contributed to the passing of Civil Rights legislation, but the pacificism of the Moriori didn't stop the Taranaki Maori from slaughtering them and enslaving those who survived.

With pacifism, the expectation isn't that everyone goes home unscathed. The expectation is that empathy ultimately prevails. There will always be soldiers who become murderers, and by experiencing the guilt detailed in Isaiah 53, they will repent.. Or their children will repent (or their children's children), because the affects of murdering God's children will cause evil to come as a curse to the murderer and his/her family, and to all of those they are in a relationship with. Jesus said "those who live by the sword, will die by it". This is the truth, and we are seeing it to this day. The world is full of dead men walking around, thinking they are alive and giving life, when they are ensuring their own demise and the demise of their children for many generations after them.

 

[CEMB]

With pacifism, the expectation isn't that everyone goes home unscathed. The expectation is that empathy ultimately prevails. There will always be soldiers who become murderers, and by experiencing the guilt detailed in Isaiah 53, they will repent.. Or their children will repent (or their children's children), because the affects of murdering God's children will cause evil to come as a curse to the murderer and his/her family, and to all of those they are in a relationship with. Jesus said "those who live by the sword, will die by it". This is the truth, and we are seeing it to this day. The world is full of dead men walking around, thinking they are alive and giving life, when they are ensuring their own demise and the demise of their children for many generations after them.

I agree that most people have a conscience and feel guilt for their wrong deeds, and eventually listen to their conscience or suffer if they refuse to heed it. We are bound by our morality. The conscience is the voice of the soul. But not all people are like this. Psychopaths feel no guilt for committing wrong and have no conscience. They are damaged. They have no physical response to witnessing the suffering of others. Their hearts don't miss a beat. Gandhi believed non-violent resistance would have even stopped Hitler and the Nazis. Maybe, but how many million Jews, Gypsies, Slavs etc. would have had to die before the killing stopped. God has placed a moral responsibility upon each of us to protect those who cannot protect themselves. If we refuse to do this then we will feel guilt and our conscience will make us see the truth, whether we want to see it or not. And then as you say we will be 'dead men [and women] walking around'.

 

[sandandfoam]

I agree that most people have a conscience and feel guilt for their wrong deeds, and eventually listen to their conscience or suffer if they refuse to heed it. We are bound by our morality. The conscience is the voice of the soul. But not all people are like this. Psychopaths feel no guilt for committing wrong and have no conscience. They are damaged. They have no physical response to witnessing the suffering of others. Their hearts don't miss a beat. Gandhi believed non-violent resistance would have even stopped Hitler and the Nazis. Maybe, but how many million Jews, Gypsies, Slavs etc. would have had to die before the killing stopped. God has placed a moral responsibility upon each of us to protect those who cannot protect themselves. If we refuse to do this then we will feel guilt and our conscience will make us see the truth, whether we want to see it or not. And then as you say we will be 'dead men [and women] walking around'.

Fighting and protection of others is most effectively undertaken with non-violent methods.
Violence simply does not work.

 

[Glaurung]

Violence simply does not work.

Well, that depends on what you want to accomplish.

 

[CEMB]

Fighting and protection of others is most effectively undertaken with non-violent methods.
Violence simply does not work.

Sorry, but if the only way I could protect my son from harm was through violent resistance then I would resist violently.

 

[sandandfoam]

Sorry, but if the only way I could protect my son from harm was through violent resistance then I would resist violently.

If the only way I could put out a fire was with petrol then I would use petrol.
To extend the point, our society regards petrol as the best way to extinguish fires. This misguided belief has been shown time and again to be flawed yet people cling to it. We could you fire extinguishers but people don't trust them.
Non-violence is effective. For a full account of why this is so Kurlansky is well worth a look.