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Christian: RCC-Prot Gospel

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
Maybe they should rewrite John for us Sojourner.

The Religious Right's Paraphrased Gospel:

For God so loved the world (except Gays and any others who don't feel the way we do) that he gave his only begotten Son. That whoever believes in him (except Gays, Catholics, LDSers, Scuba Pete, Sojourner and a few others) should have eternal life (which is full of hate and bitterness towards those who question the modern day Pharisees of this world).


I think you are slandering my friend. Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The cross is the equalizer in life. BTW...I don't identify with the religious right and God is not a Republican. If you understood the essentials of biblical Christianity, you would know that all Christians are recovering Pharisees including me and you. All Christians are sinners in process...to the praise and glory of God alone.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
all Christians are recovering Pharisees
Actually, many have divorced themselves from the influence of the Spirit and are indeed practicing Pharisees, even to the point of proselytizing.

Did you ever wonder why Jesus had nothing BAD to say about the rank and file sinner? It was the religious of the day that he castigated on a repeated basis and not the average sinner. The Pharisees had the OT law down, just like you think you have the NT law. Yet, without the Spirit (whose influence you distrust), there is no righteousness.

Saying that you are the "worst sinner" sounds all pious, but your fruit falls far short of that. To whit, the fruit of the Spirit does not include intolerance, judgment, animosity and derision.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Well...I would have to test the spirits to see if the liberal Jesus was the true and living Jesus found in the Bible alone. I guess we are commanded to do this, because there are many false Christs and anti-Christs that are in the world. If the Bible cannot be trusted as revelation from God, then all 6 billion views in the world are equally valid. The world would be blinded by the darkness.
So...Jesus is only found in the Bible? What about in your heart? What about in the faces of those you meet? What about in the least of us? What about in the Eucharist of the gathered community? Jesus isn't found there, too?

Maybe Jesus isn't as two-dimensional as the page that describes him. Maybe he's a three-dimensional human being, and a multi-dimensional Divinity. In which case, I think we'd have to ascribe to him a broader perspective, wouldn't we?
 

RomCat

Active Member
Only the Catholic Church has the authority and the competency
to declare what the inspired books of the Bible are and what is
the true meaning of the passages contained within these books.
 

Chookna

Member
My understanding is that when the NT refers to scriptures, it is referring to the OT.


The Bible calls for us to "hold fast to the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or epistle."(2 Thessalonian 2:15) and calls the Church "the pillar and ground of the truth"(1 Timothy 3:15)

Secondly, the Biblical canon itself is an extra-Biblical tradition.

That said, there has not been in my experience any difference in the Gospel preached at protestant worship and at Catholic Mass.


The Bible says much about "tradition." In the New Testament, the words "traditions" and "tradition" occur 14 times. There are eight references (Matt. 15:2,3,6: Mark 7:3,5, 8,9,13) in which Christ makes statements about traditions, which are derogatory. In Colossians 2:8 and Galatians 1:14, Paul makes five references, which are derogatory. Peter also has one reference (1 Peter 1:18) which is derogatory. There are only three favorable references left concerning tradition.
In the New Testament Gospel, Jesus publicly rebuked the Pharisees about their traditions.

Following quote by "Former Catholics For Christ"
"The true Bible was placed under one cover no later than 145A.D., and was known as the Syrian Pe****to. The "Old Latin Vulgate" was the next Bible to be compiled by the year 157 A.D. The corrupted Latin version of Jerome, translated by order of Constantine, was published in about 380 A.D. The RCC chose the name "Vulgate" or "Common" for Jerome’s translation in an attempt to deceive loyal Christians into thinking that it was the true common Bible of the people. It was rejected by real Christians such as the Waldenses, Gauls, Celts, Albigenses, and other groups throughout Europe who held doctrinal purity dear to their hearts. According to
Dr. Bill Grady, in his book Final Authority, page 34":

"For the Syrian people dwelling northeast of Palestine, there were at least four major versions: the Pe****ta (A.D. 145); the Old Syriac (AD. 400); the Palestinian Syriac (A.D. 450); and the Philoxenian (A.D. 508), which was revised by Thomas of Harkel in A.D. 616 and henceforth known as the Harclean Syriac. True to the meaning of its name (straight or rule), the Pe****ta set the standard because of its early composition and strong agreement with the Greek text underlying the King James Bible. Because of the obvious embarrassment caused by this document bearing witness to a text some two centuries older than either X [Codex Sinaiticus]or B [Codex Vaticanus] , modern Nicolaitane scholarship has conveniently assigned the Pe****ta's origin to A.D. 415. The first translation into a purely European tongue is known as the Gothic version. This work was prepared in 330 A.D. by the soul-winning missionary Ulfilas...Once again, the strength of this version is found in its age and agreement with the Textus Receptus. Edward Hills cites F.G. Kenyon's 1912 edition on New Testament criticism that, ‘The type of text represented in it is for the most part that which is found in the majority of Greek manuscripts. Thus, Ulfilas had access to King James Version readings a full two decades before Sinaiticus or Vaticanus were copied. An excellent example of his superior manuscripts is reflected by the Gothic inclusion of the traditional ending to ‘The Lord's Prayer’ of Matthew 6:13. The familiar words, ‘for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen’, are conspicuously absent from both of the ‘two most ancient authorities.’ There are only eight surviving manuscripts of the Gothic version."
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Perhaps I can share with all some of my opinions on the matter. I am going to speak from my experience as a Roman Catholic, I am not in the mood to quote catechisms. My opinions here may or may not collaborate with the official Roman line- but I nonetheless understand my perspective on scripture to take the Catholic side of the debate in the Protestant/ Catholic division. As I sometimes pray to God, "Lord protect Your Church, even from my own heresies!"

Scripture, in my evaluation, is the word of God in a secondary or derivative sense. The Word of God that is foremost in our faith is the Logos- Christ Himself- as testified in the Gospel of John. A word is a communication of thought, it comes from our mind, passes through our lips and moves out towards the intended listener. Christ is God's act of self-communication. Christ lives from the Father, and lives for humanity the listener. His very existence as an Incarnate reality is one, as it were, strewn between the two poles of his existence- coming from God and living for man. He is the "in flesh" speech of God, which means, consequently, that God's divine language is the language of human reality (a foundational principle for liturgical worship and sacramental living). The God of Islam might speak in Arabic, of the Jews in Hebrew- but the God of the Christian understanding speaks a language of flesh and blood, so that it is not only the words of Jesus, but his very act of living which is revelatory.

By no means do I think the Fathers of the Reformation and their children deny this. I do not think, however, they have taken this sufficiently to heart.

The first notion that I take from the above is that Scripture is a witness to God's self revelation in Christ- and is not that revelation itself. They are not, therefore, self-sufficient. The Scriptures are only the word of God when they are read in union with the Word of God. This is why I think Catholics tend to have an easier time, or certainly will so in the future, with the co-existence of the discipline of historical-criticism and orthodox belief. Unlike certain branches of Liberal Protestantism, which see the critical method as the only lens for discovering the meaning of Jesus and regard reading it in light of the Logos as an error of method, the Catholic understands that Scripture is only such when it is read in the context of the life of the Church-that community which is itself a living witness to the action of God in history. This community is apostolic, meaning that it is a testimony to God's incarnation into history in part because it is the same community which was founded by the original event of Christ's revelation- it points us towards the God of history.

There is no living Scripture without a living Church, because the former is actually contained in the latter. Christ founded not a text, but a community of people whom he chose and called out to be witnesses to the power of his salvation. Neither does this community stand on its own as something self-sufficient, but, in its essence, has been hewn out of His Sacred Side amidst the flow of baptismal water and the eucharistic blood (re: John 19:34).

The Church is more than the witness to the revelation of God in Christ, however, lest we allow the Incarnation to become a mere event confined in the pages or memory of history. Christ is the New Creation in person. Through the Incarnation and the shedding of His Body and Blood, Christ deposited Himself, as it were, into the world. He sew into the common flesh of man the flesh of a second human body, injected into the common bloodstream of humanity the blood of a new humanity.

The Church is, as per the New Testament literature, the very Body of Christ which He has sewn into the world and which He commands as the Head. I am of course speaking of the Church as she is in essence, and not in her sinful members. The Church, therefore, testifies to the event of Christ and insofar as she is His Body, is also called to bring all of humanity into Christ's enfleshed embrace- hence the sacraments, primarily the Eucharist.

The Church, being Christ's Body on earth, is set up to oversee and, through Christ, carry out the transfer from Body to Body- that is to say: the history of the world after Jesus is the history of the exodus from, pruning, and transfiguration of the Body Adam to and into the Body of Christ.

Thus, for me, the central passage that I will cite as "gospel" is:
"If, because of the one man's trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ"
One last word before I conclude. I began with noting that Jesus is the Word of God and thus, as the Word of God, lives from the Father, and lives for humanity the listener. But this idea is not complete. It is also clear that Jesus does not just bring the Father to us, but stands in the place of humanity in the sight of the Father (and hence the basic idea of the Cross as an atonement).

This means that Christ is not only the Word from God to humanity- he must also be humanity's word to the Father. This means we also have to speak in the incarnated language which the Father has given us in Jesus. In the language of the Liturgy, this means that we have to give to the Father as a gift the very gift which he gave us. Hence, the Eucharist as the Divine Sacrifice of the Mass. We offer the Lord the Flesh and Blood, the Incarnated Word, which He has already entrusted us with.

We must speak the Word which the Father spoke to us.

I hope you can see I intend this far beyond Liturgy, but rather life as a whole.

And this is the beginning of the journey towards that vision where, "we will become as He is, because we will see Him as He is"...and "God will become all in all".
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Only the Catholic Church has the authority and the competency
to declare what the inspired books of the Bible are and what is
the true meaning of the passages contained within these books.
Let's put a small-case "c" on "catholic," shall we? I'd have to say that the Orthodox have just as much authority as the Romans, as well as the Anglicans, all of which are in the Apostolic Succession.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Bible says much about "tradition." In the New Testament, the words "traditions" and "tradition" occur 14 times. There are eight references (Matt. 15:2,3,6: Mark 7:3,5, 8,9,13) in which Christ makes statements about traditions, which are derogatory. In Colossians 2:8 and Galatians 1:14, Paul makes five references, which are derogatory. Peter also has one reference (1 Peter 1:18) which is derogatory. There are only three favorable references left concerning tradition.
In the New Testament Gospel, Jesus publicly rebuked the Pharisees about their traditions.
The Bible is part of the Tradition of the Church. Maybe we should throw it out, too.

Your dates of compilation and canonization are misinformed.
 
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