• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christian, Would You Kill Your Son or Daughter if God Asked You To?

Christian, would you kill your son or daughter if god asked you to?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • No

    Votes: 8 80.0%

  • Total voters
    10

Skwim

Veteran Member
To bring him up as a sacrifice. The idea of him being slaughtered was by inference only... he wasn't explicitly told to slaughter his son.
facepalm.gif
What can I say.

First of all, no one but yourself has connected Abraham with any slaughtering. So no one is implying or inferring any slaughtering but you. Want to reconstruct the scenario go right ahead, but I'm not listening.

Secondly, leaving out the object of the sentence changes its whole meaning, and no one has given you permission to do so. It would be like leaving out the "not" in, "Poisonshady313 is not a poop head." "As a sacrifice" gives the reason for bringing him up.

"Offer him as"

"use him as"

"kill him and offer him"

"Give him as a burnt gift"

"offer Isaac to Me as a burnt offering"

"offer him as a burnt sacrifice"

Like it or not, but all 52 versions of Gen. 22:2, which use one of the above forms, tell us that god wants Abraham to kill his son. Want to stick to your version, fine, but don't pretend these 52 agree with it, because they don't.

.
 
Last edited:

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Abraham was supposed to argue with G-d about this. After Abraham does this, which is after he's promised a bloodline through Isaac (the one who's supposedly about to die) G-d never speaks personally with Abraham again. Angels do. G-d wants Abraham to argue with him as he did about the destruction of Sodom. Unlike Noach, who said 'Yes, G-d, You're right; all these people should die in a great flood, whatever Your will is, L-rd," Abraham wasn't content just to sit back like that. He felt the need to stand up for people. Both were considered very righteous men, but this is why Abraham, not Noach, was chosen to be the Father of the Jewish Nation.

Why exactly this is, I cannot explain.
Show where within within the story the it says god wanted Abraham to argue with him.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
facepalm.gif
What can I say.

First of all, no one but yourself has connected Abraham with any slaughtering. So no one is implying or inferring any slaughtering but you. Want to reconstruct the scenario go right ahead, but I'm not listening.

It's literally the point you've been trying to make this whole time. In fact, you make it again in this post I'm quoting. Maybe, for some strange reason, you're reading too much into the word "slaughtering", when in the context of an offering, it's literally the act of killing the thing being sacrificed.

Secondly, leaving out the object of the sentence changes its whole meaning, and no one has given you permission to do so. It would be like leaving out the "not" in, "Poisonshady313 is not a poop head." "As a sacrifice" gives the reason for bringing him up.

"Offer him as"

"use him as"

"kill him and offer him"

"Give him as a burnt gift"

"offer Isaac to Me as a burnt offering"

"offer him as a burnt sacrifice"

Like it or not, but all 52 versions of Gen. 22:2, which use one of the above forms, tell us that god wants Abraham to kill his son. Want to stick to your version, fine, but don't pretend these 52 agree with it, because they don't.

.

God wants Abraham to think that he's going to kill his son. But in going through all the steps of "bringing him up as a burnt offering" up until the point before actually killing him fulfilled what he was asked to do.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It doesn't have to take away from the importance of scripture, if one wants, but the fact is god did want Abraham to offer up his son as a sacrifice to him in obedience. The act of actually (not metaphorically) lifting the knife was an act to kill Isaac. Regardless whether god would have stopped him or not, the fact that he attempted it, is the fact that Isaac-a human being--was offered as a sacrifice to god. This isn't obedience or love, it's barbaric and highly pagan (by Christian definition).

Although most everyone already knows, it is important to note here that God stopped Abraham before he struck the child with the knife.

The important thing to note here is that Abraham trusted God so much that he thought God quite capable of resurrecting Isaac from the dead, if that had proven necessary. This is great faith.

1. Stopping him doesn't mean he didn't make the attempt. The attempt is important too. I would not want to kill my son but if I loved god that much, I would make that attempt-which is just as important as the act itself.

2He said, ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’​

Today, would a Christian offer their child as an offering to god if god actually, literally told them to? Little over 2,000 years ago was not so far away. People sacrificed other people and it was done for a long time in many places. As of today, people sacrifice animals and the freedom of human beings. We still make offerings. Saints made offerings of themselves to god. Offerings is important in Christianity (and in many many many religions).

He bound his son Isaac, and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill* his son.​

If it was not a human sacrifice, Abraham would not have made the attempt. He loved god and was obedient to god than he loved his own son.

Also, if he said no to god, he would be offering himself as a sacrifice and probably killed for disobedience. Yet, because he cared more for his son than god, the act of his sacrifice is worth more-he thought of his son's well being-than that of god. The sacrifice would be if Abraham said no. He did not. It isn't a true sacrifice because he didn't kill the child so Abraham lost nothing. Sacrifice is when you lose something in the expense for someone else's well being. Abraham story does not have that.

2. If this is so, Isaac would not be a sacrifice. Abraham trusted god that he did the right thing not that Isaac would be resurrected.

By myself I have sworn, says the Lord: Because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17I will indeed bless you, and I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore.​

Abraham was rewarded for attempting to kill his only child.

Today, if we did that we would get arrested. What is the value of trying to kill your own son? Does Abraham value more his life, obedience, and animal offering than he does his only son?

I know Christians today would not opt for that option; but, if you are Christian (or Jewish) that option should be just as Abraham. With that, you would trust "god to provide" by your actions and attempt to kill your son and daughter. You would trust god to stop you just as Abraham and not put a barrier between god's obedience by time period of only 2,000 some odd years.

Later God sacrificed his own Son so it is not unreasonable of God to ask us to sacrifice ourselves for others and for Him if necessary.

God can't sacrifice himself only his human image/flesh of him, if going by trinitarian view that christ is god. In order to be a clean sacrifice, you have to be a human being. In order for christians do rise as jesus (as in galatians 2:21 just as being crucified in him), he has to die-literally die-first. He cannot be resurrected and be called a sacrifice.

If you cannot sacrifice your own son or daughter (I don't know if you answered the question), how can you sacrifice yourself? What is the difference between sacrificing your child and sacrificing yourself if they are both in obedience to god?

If god told you to kill your child, that is showing obedience as down by abraham.

If god told you to kill yourself, that is showing obedience shown of what the human christ did himself (let himself be killed by holding back on why he claimed himself the son of god).

Would christians (and Jews) make these decisions?

If not, why? How does time period prevent one person from honoring god's commandments while today, in one post here they question his command by thinking if that question was asked of that poster, they'd think it's a hallucination?

-

I haven't had these questions answered by questions before. I'm not thinking about likes but honestly curious as to why Abraham would do X but christians today would decline the same command.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
God wants Abraham to think that he's going to kill his son.
Yup. God directed Abraham to kill his son.

"Offer him as"

"use him as"

"kill him and offer him"

"Give him as a burnt gift"

"offer Isaac to Me as a burnt offering"

"offer him as a burnt sacrifice"


But in going through all the steps of "bringing him up as a burnt offering" up until the point before actually killing him fulfilled what he was asked to do.
Your sentence here doesn't make sense. Punctuation issue perhaps?

.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Your sentence here doesn't make sense. Punctuation issue perhaps?

.
I'll try again.

He had fully fulfilled that which was asked of him by going through all of the steps of "bringing him up as a burnt offering" without actually killing him.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'll try again.

He had fully fulfilled that which was asked of him by going through all of the steps of "bringing him up as a burnt offering" without actually killing him.
Yes, he did fulfill that part, plus the part that followed where he was on the verge of actually killing Isaac as god had instructed.

10And Abraham stretched forth his hand and took the knife, to slaughter his son.

The only reason he didn't go through with the sacrifice was because he was stopped.

11And an angel of God called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham! Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

12And he said, "Do not stretch forth your hand to the lad, nor do the slightest thing to him, for now I know that you are a God fearing man, and you did not withhold your son, your only one, from Me."

Source: Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 22 (Parshah Vayeira)

And verse 12 is quite telling. Note the remark, ". . .and you did not withhold your son, your only one, from Me." It indicates that Abraham might well kill his son. Why else would god expect that Abraham might not "withhold" his son? God's remark shows he wasn't certain whether Abraham would go through with sacrificing his son or not. And why would god even think Abraham would do such a heinous thing? Because he had told Abraham to do so.

.
 
Last edited:

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'll try again.

He had fully fulfilled that which was asked of him by going through all of the steps of "bringing him up as a burnt offering" without actually killing him.

The intent is also important too. If someone made the attempt to kill someone's life today, they may be shot if not arrested first. This is because today, we value the life of the victim rather than the actions and attempted actions of the murderer.

There is a saying in the gospels that even thoughts of adultery is considered adultery. Putting that same logic in the OT, even the intent of killing still has the same meaning as the act.

At the exact moment god stopped Abraham, it was no longer a sacrifice. Sacrifice, the person actually dies. He attempted to sacrifice his child but because he could not go through with it, it was no longer a sacrifice but an act of obedience towards it.

Also, the intent was not thinking of the wellare of the child but the obedience of the father. So, the father was somewhat selfish that he thought his own obedience to god was more important than the life of his son.

Parents today would give their life for their child to live. However, not many christian parents answer the question if they give their life for their child to live if god asked them too.

What is the difference between the two situations?

It would be a sacrifice of Abraham or the parent took their lives for their children. It's attempted murderer when Abraham attempted to kill but didn't succeed because god stopped him.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
To bring him up as a sacrifice. The idea of him being slaughtered was by inference only... he wasn't explicitly told to slaughter his son.

He didn't say how to kill his son. It did explicitly say to offer his son up as a burnt offering to god.

Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’​

Since animals are usually slaughtered to be killed, I would imagine Abraham would do the same. It's not how Abraham decided to kill his son but the actual intent and action of him getting to the point of lifting his knife.

It's a literal example of what people did back when. I mean, it took awhile when there was a united states for laws against "cruel and unusual punishment" to be outlawed. I can't imagine what other countries did back when. Christians get arrested in Muslim countries if they, women, do not follow Muslim customs such as wearing a Burka.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Which 'Jewish Bible'?

This is from a Rabbi from here

Rashi points out that God never asked Abraham to sacrifice his son. The term the Bible ascribes to God is veha’aleihu, which means to “offer him up”; the Bible deliberately does not use the term shechateihu,“slaughter him”.


Make of it what you will.

How is it different to "offer (Isaac) up" to god different than saying he (gave a) sacrifice of his son? In both cases, the life of Isaac was not the priority compared to the obedience of god.

Also, is the Rabbi saying that Abraham did not mean to kill Isaac (since sacrifice doesn't always mean killing; but, in Christianity, it does); if not, why and what does it mean when Abraham offered Isaac up?

If not his life, what was the meaning of the offering?
 
Eh, I don't know if I really would have the conviction, but if I knew for certain (like Abraham) that God ordered it, why not? Clearly it's serving a good purpose. Now, if it was just, like, a voice in my head, I'd probably take it as a sign I was going crazy and wouldn't do it.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Genesis 22:1-10

"After these things God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and set out and went to the place in the distance that God had shown him. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place far away. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the boy and I will go over there; we will worship, and then we will come back to you.” 6 Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, “Father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “The fire and the wood are here, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God himself will provide the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

9 When they came to the place that God had shown him, Abraham built an altar there and laid the wood in order. He bound his son Isaac, and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill his son.
(Yes, I know he didn't do it.)

So . . . . . . . . . . . ?

I have to be a prophet to answer such question, we're lay humans.
If you asked me can you kill a human being, my answer will be not even a chicken, but a butcher will do.

Now if a leader asked his soldiers to kill some civilians because they
believe a terrorist is hiding inside, will they feel pity towards the poor
civilians including children?

Do you feel pity towards the animal sheep that God offered for us as food,
or do you believe that you're a special animal and much better than the other animals that been created by God.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I have to be a prophet to answer such question,
A prophet? Not at all. Would you need to be a prophet in order to answer the question, "would you like an apple?"? Assuming you have a son, say god comes down and asks you to kill him. What would you do? Kill him or not? :shrug:

we're lay humans
What's a lay human? I assume you're using "lay" as an adjective.

lay
/leɪ/
adjective
1.of, involving, or belonging to people who are not clergy
2.nonprofessional or nonspecialist; amateur

.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
A prophet? Not at all. Would you need to be a prophet in order to answer the question, "would you like an apple?"? Assuming you have a son, say god comes down and asks you to kill him. What would you do? Kill him or not? :shrug:

Do you think it was an easy job for Abraham, never.

You, me and the others aren't prophets to answer such kind of questions.
If you were a prophet and you used to receive messages from the one
who created the universe and you have confidence on him, Abraham
had appealed to God to give him a son and God answered him by giving
him a son on the age of 100 years old, after Abraham had raised his son
and was loving him so much, God ordered Abraham to kill his only son,
God gave him the son and God asked him to kill the one that he gave to him, for
me and you, we can never do it because we don't have such relation
to God, but what difference if killing your son or the son of the other man
or even killing a sheep, all are animals created by God.

What's a lay human? I assume you're using "lay" as an adjective.


lay
/leɪ/
adjective
1.of, involving, or belonging to people who are not clergy
2.nonprofessional or nonspecialist; amateur
Regarding our relation to God.​
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Not if you can bring him back better than ever.

It must be pain and suffering then, but the Bible needs immediate changing first to reflect that.

No, it doesn't. You either misunderstand due to ignorance or you just refuse to admit you're wrong.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Genesis 22:1-10

"After these things God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and set out and went to the place in the distance that God had shown him. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place far away. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the boy and I will go over there; we will worship, and then we will come back to you.” 6 Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, “Father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “The fire and the wood are here, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God himself will provide the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

9 When they came to the place that God had shown him, Abraham built an altar there and laid the wood in order. He bound his son Isaac, and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill his son.
(Yes, I know he didn't do it.)

So . . . . . . . . . . . ?


I'm not Christian but was many years ago so my post is relevant only to me.

Killing someone is murder and deserves appropriate penalty
I suppose killing someone because a voice in your head told you may earn you a different penalty, in a different institution with lots of big muscly staff i white coats.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's worth mentioning that God never commanded, or even asked/requested that Abraham slaughter his son. He was told to "bring him up". And he did.


Where did you get that from?, even the much cherry picked and sanitised niv states "Sacrifice him "
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Let's just stick with new testament stuff and ask Christians how many of them are willing to give up their earthly possessions in order to more properly follow their faith...

Matthew 19
Acts 4
Luke 12 & 18
James 5
1 John 3
 
Top