Christian, Would You Kill Your Son or Daughter if God Asked You To?

[Kenny]

Don't you hope.

But I have to say, your hubris is amusing.


.

LOL... I KNOW!

 

[DavidFirth]

I don't find it important because if it was Satan disguised as God Satan wins by having Abraham demonstrate the will to commit a murder that he knew was wrong and evil. It is said that the Ten Commandments which include "Thou shalt not murder," are already written in our hearts.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Eh, I don't know if I really would have the conviction, but if I knew for certain (like Abraham) that God ordered it, why not? Clearly it's serving a good purpose. Now, if it was just, like, a voice in my head, I'd probably take it as a sign I was going crazy and wouldn't do it.

How can you tell the difference?

If you think that your god could order the sacrifice of an innocent person, doesn't this make you question your assumption that your god is good?

 

[Confucian Mormon Buddhist]

How can you tell the difference?

If you think that your god could order the sacrifice of an innocent person, doesn't this make you question your assumption that your god is good?

The difference between, say, hearing a voice in my head and seeing God physically prove his existence, like coming down from Heaven and leaving some trace of his visit that other people can see too.

I would question it, but if it was God Himself, he would probably have a good reason for it. The child was going to turn out to be a serial killer. The child went straight to heaven. Like in the Bible, it was just a test and he doesn't want me to go through with it. Etcetera.

 

[Sleeppy]

Thank you. And the Rashi commentary from that very same link:

He did not say to him, “Slaughter him,” because the Holy One, blessed be He, did not wish him to slaughter him but to bring him up to the mountain, to prepare him for a burnt offering, and as soon as he brought him up [to the mountain], He said to him, “Take him down.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 56:8]

Irrelevant.

1) He was to be offered up "for a burnt offering". (-- anyone remember Molech?)
2) Abraham raised his hand to kill him, in preparation for a burnt offering.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The difference between, say, hearing a voice in my head and seeing God physically prove his existence, like coming down from Heaven and leaving some trace of his visit that other people can see too.

There are plenty of examples of mentally ill people who are convinced that their hallucinations or false memories were witnessed by lots of people.

I would question it, but if it was God Himself, he would probably have a good reason for it. The child was going to turn out to be a serial killer. The child went straight to heaven.

So you're open to the possibility that:

- someone is destined to be a serial killer.
- God couldn't have prevented him from going down that path from the outset.
- now that he's on that path, his best or only option is to get you to murder the kid.

Really? Your scenario has some theoligical implications that don't make God look too good.

Like in the Bible, it was just a test and he doesn't want me to go through with it. Etcetera.

If you don't think he wants you to go through with it, why try to go through with it?

 

[Sleeppy]

Being a fatalist makes this a lot easier, but doesn't necessarily answer the question. God, being that first overarching cause, knows what I will do. If He asks, it's always rhetorical.

 

[ChristineM]

We've gone over this already. But here it is again:

And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."

Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 22 (Parshah Vayeira)


And Rashi's commentary on the phrase in question:

bring him up: He did not say to him, “Slaughter him,” because the Holy One, blessed be He, did not wish him to slaughter him but to bring him up to the mountain, to prepare him for a burnt offering, and as soon as he brought him up [to the mountain], He said to him, “Take him down.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 56:8]

I hate to enlighten you but most Bible versions don't agree with your torah version. In the majority of Hebrew bibles God commands Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice. As in christian bibles

E.g.

Gen 22:2 erv Then God said, “Take your son to the land of Moriah and kill your son there as a sacrifice for me

 

[Kenny]

I hate to enlighten you but most Bible versions don't agree with your torah version. In the majority of Hebrew bibles God commands Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice. As in christian bibles

E.g.

Gen 22:2 erv Then God said, “Take your son to the land of Moriah and kill your son there as a sacrifice for me

It looked like both your version and the one you responded to says the same thing. ?? but just in different words.

 

[ChristineM]

It looked like both your version and the one you responded to says the same thing. ?? but just in different words.

The various versions of the bible are good at that. Allows for many different interpretations.

Sacrifice is a pretty damming word that is kind of difficult to interpret any other way but sacrifice.

 

[Kenny]

The various versions of the bible are good at that. Allows for many different interpretations.

Sacrifice is a pretty damming word that is kind of difficult to interpret any other way but sacrifice.

OK... Burnt Offerings are also a sacrifice with fire. That's why I said it sounds like the same thing

 

[ChristineM]

OK... Burnt Offerings are also a sacrifice with fire. That's why I said it sounds like the same thing

A burnt offering is still retrievable, ask my husband at dinner time

Poisonshady313 seems to think it has a totally different meaning which is why i pointed out sacrifice.

 

[arthra]

Genesis 22:1-10

"After these things God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and set out and went to the place in the distance that God had shown him. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place far away. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the boy and I will go over there; we will worship, and then we will come back to you.” 6 Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, “Father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “The fire and the wood are here, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God himself will provide the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

9 When they came to the place that God had shown him, Abraham built an altar there and laid the wood in order. He bound his son Isaac, and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill his son.
​

(Yes, I know he didn't do it.)

So . . . . . . . . . . . ?

Compare the Genesis version of the story with that found in the Qur'an Surih 37 as translated by Pickthall:

101 So We gave him tidings of a gentle son.

102 And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said:

O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou ?

He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast.

103 Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face,

104 We called unto him: O Abraham!

105 Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.

106 Lo! that verily was a clear test.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

There are plenty of examples of mentally ill people who are convinced that their hallucinations or false memories were witnessed by lots of people.


So you're open to the possibility that:

- someone is destined to be a serial killer.
- God couldn't have prevented him from going down that path from the outset.
- now that he's on that path, his best or only option is to get you to murder the kid.

Really? Your scenario has some theoligical implications that don't make God look too good.


If you don't think he wants you to go through with it, why try to go through with it?

First the spirit of the OT was if GOD not someone that says they are God not an hallucination, no if GOD asked you to whack your son would you. Play fair mr atheist etc.

I think the biggest problem atheists have when they attempt to understand God or anything supernatural* is they can not visualize it. This is due to their emotions and other factors such as their world view. Therefore can not truly understand or believe anything supernatural exists. That naturally renders questions such as this OT raises meaningless for all intensive purposes. I think it was Jung 9maybe not) that suggested to his students that were having problems understanding the spiritual or non material world to ingest psychoactive substances because being under the influence of such things like peyote assisted his less intellectually endowed students to visualize 'the other side'. Many cultures use psychoactive substances to make it easier to prepare ones mind, to add references etc, to aid in the purely spiritual journey such as the dream world of the southwestern 'Indians' and aboriginals of Australia.