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Christian Zionisme

M

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
I had a discussion with a Christian about the events in Middle East and he told me something which was very interesting. His support for zionisme comes from the Bible. The idea that Christian’s has to support the blessed people chosen by god.
So this thread is merely to find out if Christian support for zionisme is justified from a theological perspective or is it heresy to do so.

I know in the US you have a large christian organizations that support Zionism. But I don’t know if this is a is just a US thing and also supported by other Christians around the world.
Obviously I know there are is also the political reasons but I just thought I make a thread about it and see what Christian’s say on this matter

Here is a verse I was quoted by the Christian person. His argument was that if he doesn’t support the chosen people than god wouldn’t bless him.

Genesis 12

The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2
“I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]

3
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you
 
Ebionite

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou said:
His support for zionisme comes from the Bible.
Click to expand...
Actually it's from ignorance. The territory of Herzl's Jewish state (aka Greater Israel) is documented in his diaries and in the Oded Yinon plan, and the extent is the same as the land that was promised to all of Abraham's descendants, not just the twelve tribes.

In the same day YHWH made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.
Genesis 15:18-21

Also, the original people of the house of Israel are not the people of the state of Israel because of the diaspora.

Area: from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.
Click to expand...
 
M

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
Ebionite said:
Actually it's from ignorance. The territory of Herzl's Jewish state (aka Greater Israel) is documented in his diaries and in the Oded Yinon plan, and the extent is the same as the land that was promised to all of Abraham's descendants, not just the twelve tribes.

In the same day YHWH made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.
Genesis 15:18-21

Also, the original people of the house of Israel are not the people of the state of Israel because of the diaspora.


Click to expand...
Interesting you mention this verse. Don’t Christian believe the seed mention in this verse is talking about Christian’s themselves? I heard a scholar of the Hebrew and Greek text talking about this verse?
 
M

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
Correction. I was mistaken, this verse the scholar was talking about was a other one

Genisus 12-7

And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

I heard here according to the New Testament the seed mention here is talking about Jesus
 
Last edited:
Ebionite

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou said:
Don’t Christian believe the seed mention in this verse is talking about Christian’s themselves?
Click to expand...
There's some Pauline doctrine about that:

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:13

This was part of the dispute between Paul and James over faith vs works.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:20-22
 
M

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
Ebionite said:
There's some Pauline doctrine about that:

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:13

This was part of the dispute between Paul and James over faith vs works.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:20-22
Click to expand...
Fair enough.
Curious on how Christians see Zionism from a theological perspective.
There are merits to say that it’s blasphemy from Christianity viewpoint to say that Jews are the chosen people or the blessed people. Because in a sense after Jesus came those who accept Jesus as the messiah are actually the new blessed people.
 
Ebionite

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou said:
Fair enough.
Curious on how Christians see Zionism from a theological perspective.
There are merits to say that it’s blasphemy from Christianity viewpoint to say that Jews are the chosen people or the blessed people. Because in a sense after Jesus came those who accept Jesus as the messiah are actually the new blessed people.
Click to expand...
The Scofield Reference Bible was used to advance Christian Zionism through its footnotes.

Accepting Jesus as the Messiah isn't the same as accepting Jesus as the Christ because the former doesn't have the Hellenic religious baggage.
Judaism doesn't have a lot to say about any first century messiah, but there are prophetic references to a king (Numbers 24:17) and to a righteous servant (Psalm 35, Isaiah 53). David is also referred to as a future shepherd in Ezekiel 34:23.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou said:
Lol yeah I get what you are saying but Christians don’t believe Jesus was the biological son of god, more out of respect ?
Click to expand...

Regardless, he certainly isn't the offspring ("seed") of Abraham referred to in Gen 12:7. But that doesn't stop people from pointing to the verse and claiming it for Jesus. The bar for that is set very-very low in my experience.
 
M

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
dybmh said:
Regardless, he certainly isn't the offspring ("seed") of Abraham referred to in Gen 12:7. But that doesn't stop people from pointing to the verse and claiming it for Jesus. The bar for that is set very-very low in my experience.
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with you on the fact that Jesus isn’t a descendant of Abraham but that based on my religion rather then the Bible . But you have your own scripture and interpretation which I respect.
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou said:
Fair enough.
Curious on how Christians see Zionism from a theological perspective.
There are merits to say that it’s blasphemy from Christianity viewpoint to say that Jews are the chosen people or the blessed people. Because in a sense after Jesus came those who accept Jesus as the messiah are actually the new blessed people.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t agree with that position. “The Chosen” can still be seen in Revelation where 144,000 Israelites will preach the gospel throughout the world. It isn’t that those who accept Jesus aren’t also blessed people, but rather we are grafted into the blessing of the Oliver Tree.

Theologically, it has been prophesied that Israel will be a country again (we have now seen that happen). Whether the Israel of the past will have the same boundaries and the Israel today, it doesn’t say. It just says that Israel will be a nation again - which it is and that another Temple will be built - of which we see the effort already.
 
M

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
Kenny said:
I wouldn’t agree with that position. “The Chosen” can still be seen in Revelation where 144,000 Israelites will preach the gospel throughout the world. It isn’t that those who accept Jesus aren’t also blessed people, but rather we are grafted into the blessing of the Oliver Tree.

Theologically, it has been prophesied that Israel will be a country again (we have now seen that happen). Whether the Israel of the past will have the same boundaries and the Israel today, it doesn’t say. It just says that Israel will be a nation again - which it is and that another Temple will be built - of which we see the effort already.
Click to expand...
But as a Christian the third temple prophesy already came out correct?
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou said:
I don’t agree with you on the fact that Jesus isn’t a descendant of Abraham but that based on my religion rather then the Bible . But you have your own scripture and interpretation which I respect.
Click to expand...

Of course, of course... but by that standard it could be any number of people, not just Jesus. And then, ya know, the impact from "claiming it for Jesus" seems to be rather insignificant. There's other better reasons to believe in Christ, imo. But, as you correctly pointed out, I'm practicing Judaism which interprets differently. I mean no disrespect. I actually love Christianity. :)
 
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