MayPeaceBeUpOnYou
Active Member
So i don’t want mispresent your beliefs. So if he is not the biological son and he is also not son of god in the sense out of respect, you know just as other prophets were son of gods. Which other option do you have ?
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Christian Zionisme
- Thread starter MayPeaceBeUpOnYou
- Start date
Out of curiosity, what does this have to do with Zionism?
Or this, for that matter?
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou
Active Member
Haha yeah we are going a bit out of topic, so my initial point was that why do Christian’s support Zionism when this goes against their theology.
If Jesus is the seed of Abraham then there is no need to quote the verse in my opening statement. That if you curse the chosen people that god will curse you. The Christian’s are the replacement of the blessed nation.
Not to my understanding - The next Temple is the one that the anti-christ will sit in (At least that is how Christians interpret the scriptures - Jewish viewpoints may differ)
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou
Active Member
Well I am interested in the views of Christian’s. So from what I have read is that Jesus is the third temple, you can correct me if I am wrong?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I believe that Jesus Christ was begotten by the Father but not made by the Father. I like this article on the matter:
Why Does It Matter That Christ Was ‘Begotten, Not Made’?
The Nicene Creed speaks of Jesus as “begotten, not made.” What does that mean, and why does it matter?
The key is really found in the Gospel of John - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God and the Word was with God.
No. I have not heard of that position before. Perhaps what they meant is that Jesus is creating a spiritual temple? But I was speaking of a literal Temple as stated in:
2 Thess 2: 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Are you saying that Christian theology stands opposed to self determination, or that Zionism is necessarily something other than the claimed right of self determination for the Jewish people, or both?
It is increasingly. In my understanding this Christian zionism appeared in the mid 19th century with writings aplenty, but the earliest book that I can show is the 1897 book by Thomas Williams with the very long title:
The World's Redemption According to the Eternal Plan Revealed and Elaborated in the Scriptures of Truth and Embraced in the Covenants of Promise and Hope of Israel.
Pretty long isn't it? Its all about his predictions that Israel must become a nation again, in the original location. He goes over some other various opinions peculiar to his non-trinitarian variety of Christianity. He was part of a very tiny group of Christians, however his was not the only group which came up with similar reasoning. Its also likely though unproven (and not provable) that Hertzl was influenced by Christian zionists. Wanting something to happen sometimes causes us to nudge it toward happening, doesn't it?
This was NOTHING compared to the impact of WWII though. Many, many Christians came to believe that this was a war inspired by Satan. Many still believe this concretely. There were all kinds of anti-religious tumult going on. Communism and marxism were at their bloodiest at that time and in decades to follow; and Nazi Germany claimed to be socialist and also attempted to exterminate the Jews. Never was Satan so visible and such a tangible threat. At this time Christian Zionism reached a level of religiosity that was beyond argument, spreading through not just the tiny non-trinitarian groups but the growing evangelical movement. Israel had been made a state, and it was taken as evidence of Christianity, evidence of all things related, too. Hundreds of books were written about future predictions about Israel, how it must be contested by all the nations, how it would be attacked and then saved personally by Jesus who would return at just the right moment.
One of the most influential of these books (written in the 1980s) was Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth. Its an example of the many other books making all kinds of predictions, often against Russia. They said Russia would attack Israel. So many of these book are still around, and they made money. Authors just kept on writing more. They expanded their themes beyond Israel to incorporate all kinds of things such as the New Age movement, Islam, Socialism, Communism...uh...and various other things. Thus it became cemented to many that Israel was central to the fate of the world.
Truth is stranger than fiction.
Here's a link to an online version of Thomas Williams 1897 book. Its pretty interesting, even if you don't know much about scripture. I would of course not just take it as representative of Christianity, since it is a niche group of people from a hundred years ago. Take a quick scan of chapter 8. http://literature.christadelphianresources.com/Williams/worldsredemption.html#c8
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou
Active Member
Alright so maybe not all Christian’s don’t believe this then. From what I have read is that Jesus is the messiah and his body is being the third temples.
Yes just looked at and it seems like the orthodox and Catholics have this beliefs.
Third Temple - Wikipedia
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou
Active Member
Not saying both.
Christian theology implies the idea that Christian’s has to support zionisme because scriptures says that they have to is questionable.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Words can acquire additional meaning from the context in which they are used. The word Christ has Christian religious context, but the word messiah doesn't.
Alright so maybe not all Christian’s don’t believe this then. From what I have read is that Jesus is the messiah and his body is being the third temples.
Yes just looked at and it seems like the orthodox and Catholics have this beliefs.
Third Temple - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
OK..
I guess I pegged it right...The "Third Temple" (Hebrew: בֵּית הַמִּקְדָּשׁ הַשְּׁלִישִׁי, Bēṯ hamMīqdāš hašŠlīšī, transl. 'Third House of the Sanctum') refers to a hypothetical rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. It would succeed Solomon's Temple and the Second Temple, the former having been destroyed during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem in c. 587 BCE and the latter having been destroyed during the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE. The notion of and desire for the Third Temple is sacred in Judaism, particularly in Orthodox Judaism. It would be the most sacred place of worship for Jews. The Hebrew Bible holds that Jewish prophets called for its construction prior to, or in tandem with, the Messianic Age. The building of the Third Temple also plays a major role in some interpretations of Christian eschatology.
The Third Temple is a physical temple. Although it says “hypothetical” - there are already efforts to see how it can be done including the purchasing of a red heifer for the temple sacrifice.
And, yes, there is a spiritual temple that Jesus is creating:
But note that in that paragraph it does not refer to it as the third temple… it is a spiritual temple
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Catholics do not call it the third temple.Alright so maybe not all Christian’s don’t believe this then. From what I have read is that Jesus is the messiah and his body is being the third temples.
Yes just looked at and it seems like the orthodox and Catholics have this beliefs.
Third Temple - Wikipedia
Though I admit to paying close attention if the Third Temple is physically rebuilt!
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou
Active Member
Did you read the part of of the Christian vieuw, this is just a part of it.OK..
The "Third Temple" (Hebrew: בֵּית הַמִּקְדָּשׁ הַשְּׁלִישִׁי, Bēṯ hamMīqdāš hašŠlīšī, transl. 'Third House of the Sanctum') refers to a hypothetical rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. It would succeed Solomon's Temple and the Second Temple, the former having been destroyed during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem in c. 587 BCE and the latter having been destroyed during the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE. The notion of and desire for the Third Temple is sacred in Judaism, particularly in Orthodox Judaism. It would be the most sacred place of worship for Jews. The Hebrew Bible holds that Jewish prophets called for its construction prior to, or in tandem with, the Messianic Age. The building of the Third Temple also plays a major role in some interpretations of Christian eschatology.
The Third Temple is a physical temple. Although it says “hypothetical” - there are already efforts to see how it can be done including the purchasing of a red heifer for the temple sacrifice.
And, yes, there is a spiritual temple that Jesus is creating:
But note that in that paragraph it does not refer to it as the third temple… it is a spiritual temple
While there are a number of differing views amongst Christianity with regard to the significance or the requirement of a third temple being built in Jerusalem, according to the writers of the New Testament, the New Covenant (spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31–34) is marked by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer (Ezekiel 36:26–27) and that therefore every believer's body and every gathering of believers comprise the temple, or that the temple has been superseded. Paul illustrates this concept in his letter to the believers at Corinth:
MayPeaceBeUpOnYou
Active Member
My point that I was making in my thread is if the isrealites aren’t the seed of Abraham but Jesus is. Does this mean Christians has to support them because of the verse in the opening thread.
Because if you see that John said everyone that reject Jesus is a anti christ. Why support the anti christ?
New International Version
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
Because if you see that John said everyone that reject Jesus is a anti christ. Why support the anti christ?
New International Version
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
"Begotten" is referring to conception by spirit, or thought, rather than physical touch.
"Christ" means annointed. I believe it could be a title for more than Jesus, but that's not the tradition and would sincerely stir a hornets nest.
There are several views that I'm aware of, they were "once" the chosen and therefore 1) your noted passage applies, 2) its Christian mercy and respect (a.k.a. the story of the Prodigal Son); and what is probably the primary view of the conservative Christians 3) It has to do with conditions needed for the second coming.
Ahhhh, yeah some do believe biological.
From a Christian perspective all Jews and Muslims with direct ancestral ties to their religions, no converts in the line, are direct descendants of Abraham.
Edit: And I do believe the previous comment about being pro-Zionist out of ignorance. Most don’t distinguish the difference between "Israel" the government and "Israel" the man formerly known as Jacob, grandson of Abraham.
Disclaimer:
I was reared a progressive Christian and still live in a community of very Conservative (fire-&-brimstone) Christians, though I no longer have trust in the Christian catholic church. Please note lower-case catholic. I do however still believe in Jesus's ministry of love and his teachings of The Way.