Christian Zionisme

[Kenny]

Did you read the part of of the Christian vieuw, this is just a part of it.

While there are a number of differing views amongst Christianity with regard to the significance or the requirement of a third temple being built in Jerusalem, according to the writers of the New Testament, the New Covenant (spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31–34) is marked by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer (Ezekiel 36:26–27) and that therefore every believer's body and every gathering of believers comprise the temple, or that the temple has been superseded. Paul illustrates this concept in his letter to the believers at Corinth:

Absolutely… that is what I said. Jesus is building a spiritual Temple… but the “3rd Temple” that I was talking about is a physical Temple:

Laying the groundwork for a Third Temple in Jerusalem

The Temple Institute creates vestments and ritual items for use in future temple, and lobbies for more Jewish access to the Temple Mount

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Balthazzar]

I had a discussion with a Christian about the events in Middle East and he told me something which was very interesting. His support for zionisme comes from the Bible. The idea that Christian’s has to support the blessed people chosen by god.
So this thread is merely to find out if Christian support for zionisme is justified from a theological perspective or is it heresy to do so.

I know in the US you have a large christian organizations that support Zionism. But I don’t know if this is a is just a US thing and also supported by other Christians around the world.
Obviously I know there are is also the political reasons but I just thought I make a thread about it and see what Christian’s say on this matter

Here is a verse I was quoted by the Christian person. His argument was that if he doesn’t support the chosen people than god wouldn’t bless him.

Genesis 12

The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2
“I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]

3
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you

This comes from what you've already posted. The question is more about when to bless and how. Think Hebrews 12 and consider the implication. Otherwise, we could end up supportive of all manner of wickedness. A blessing is a blessing ... even when and if it's a difficult blessing to swallow.

 

[Spice]

This comes from what you've already posted. The question is more about when to bless and how. Think Hebrews 12 and consider the implication. Otherwise, we could end up supportive of all manner of wickedness. A blessing is a blessing ... even when and if it's a difficult blessing to swallow.

Thanks. Truly profound:

14Continually pursue peace with everyone, and the sanctification without which no one will [ever] see the Lord. 15See to it that no one falls short of God’s grace; that no root of resentment springs up and causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16and [see to it] that no one is immoral or godless like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that later on, when he wanted [to regain title to] his inheritance of the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no opportunity for repentance [there was no way to repair what he had done, no chance to recall the choice he had made], even though he sought for it with [bitter] tears.

 

[Balthazzar]

Thanks. Truly profound:

14Continually pursue peace with everyone, and the sanctification without which no one will [ever] see the Lord. 15See to it that no one falls short of God’s grace; that no root of resentment springs up and causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16and [see to it] that no one is immoral or godless like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that later on, when he wanted [to regain title to] his inheritance of the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no opportunity for repentance [there was no way to repair what he had done, no chance to recall the choice he had made], even though he sought for it with [bitter] tears.

I was looking more specifically to earlier text associated. It's like when we disapprove of our kids conduct, we bless them with a more severe and less appreciated blessing. It's called discipline. There is no we support whatever you do because we're told it benefits us to bless. Not in truth and sincerity. It can be quite the contrary. Sometimes the truer blessing comes with disapproval.

 

[Spice]

I was looking more specifically to earlier text associated. It's like when we disapprove of our kids conduct, we bless them with a more severe and less appreciated blessing. It's called discipline. There is no we support whatever you do because we're told it benefits us to bless. Not in truth and sincerity. It can be quite the contrary. Sometimes the truer blessing comes with disapproval.

I get that, too. It took decades for my sons to understand the why of some of my parenting decisions. It's appreciated in the long term.

But what I shared was one of those "oh my" moments. I've read Hebrews I don't know how many times, but it took this RF posting prompt to get the "oh my" from the chapter.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

This comes from what you've already posted. The question is more about when to bless and how. Think Hebrews 12 and consider the implication. Otherwise, we could end up supportive of all manner of wickedness. A blessing is a blessing ... even when and if it's a difficult blessing to swallow.

I get your argument. And that’s why it’s weird that Christian zionisme organizations claims that scriptures tells that you should support them even tho John clearly says that whoever denies Christ is the the anti Christ. So in a sense supporting the anti christ is what is asking of you

 

[Kenny]

I get your argument. And that’s why it’s weird that Christian zionisme organizations claims that scriptures tells that you should support them even tho John clearly says that whoever denies Christ is the the anti Christ. So in a sense supporting the anti christ is what is asking of you

I don’t think it is wong on various accounts:

1) You are applying to the whole as if there are none righteous… Abraham said, “If there are but ten… would you spare…"
2) It is the goodness of God that bring men to repentance
3) It suggest, globally, that we don’t bless anyone unless they are Christ followers which isn’t a biblical command

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

I don’t think it is wong on various accounts:

1) You are applying to the whole as if there are none righteous… Abraham said, “If there are but ten… would you spare…"
2) It is the goodness of God that bring men to repentance
3) It suggest, globally, that we don’t bless anyone unless they are Christ followers which isn’t a biblical command

All right, I agree with you that it shouldn’t be a problem to bless those that are individuals. But to say that supporting a nation that is anti Christ is remarkable. Because anti christ is something evil.
And last I check supporting evil is wrong. Unless you believe John was wrong that they aren’t the anti christ then I get your position

 

[Kenny]

All right, I agree with you that it shouldn’t be a problem to bless those that are individuals. But to say that supporting a nation that is anti Christ is remarkable. Because anti christ is something evil.
And last I check supporting evil is wrong. Unless you believe John was wrong that they aren’t the anti christ then I get your position

Again… to take a logical progression that you have proposed

1) If you deny Christ you are the anti-Christ
2) If you are an anti-Christ, you should not bless them.

First… let’s look at your quote which I think is misquoted:

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

Israel has not denied the Father - so it doesn’t quite fit your initial statement.

Second… you can take one quote at the expense of the rest of the story and loose the harmony of the scriptures.

Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Romans 12:14
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

So we don’t find scriptures that support your position of not blessing Israel who isn’t even our enemies.

So, what was John referring to?

Certainly he didn’t say “Don’t pray for them, don’t bless them, don’t pay good for evil et al”. We can see that the verse also has two conditions, denying the son and denying the Father - so they don’t qualify the condition that you suggest.

Lastly, you have to read what comes before a scripture to find context. If you don’t you could be charged with “cherry picking”. (I’m not saying you are doing that for I believe it was an honest error)

for context 1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us.

Notice that these “anti-christs” were first “with them” because “they went out from us” and “they would have remained with us”. So these anti-christs were claiming that they were Christians at some point. So Israel definitely doesn’t fit the position of “anti-Christ”.

So, on all accounts, your progression is in error because the initial foundational statement is in error.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Again… to take a logical progression that you have proposed

1) If you deny Christ you are the anti-Christ
2) If you are an anti-Christ, you should not bless them.

First… let’s look at your quote which I think is misquoted:

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

Israel has not denied the Father - so it doesn’t quite fit your initial statement.

Second… you can take one quote at the expense of the rest of the story and loose the harmony of the scriptures.

Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Romans 12:14
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

So we don’t find scriptures that support your position of not blessing Israel who isn’t even our enemies.

So, what was John referring to?

Certainly he didn’t say “Don’t pray for them, don’t bless them, don’t pay good for evil et al”. We can see that the verse also has two conditions, denying the son and denying the Father - so they don’t qualify the condition that you suggest.

Lastly, you have to read what comes before a scripture to find context. If you don’t you could be charged with “cherry picking”. (I’m not saying you are doing that for I believe it was an honest error)

for context 1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us.

Notice that these “anti-christs” were first “with them” because “they went out from us” and “they would have remained with us”. So these anti-christs were claiming that they were Christians at some point. So Israel definitely doesn’t fit the position of “anti-Christ”.

So, on all accounts, your progression is in error because the initial foundational statement is in error.

I appreciate your response and honesty. I agree with you that it doesn’t explicitly telling believers to not support the anti christ and I am not saying it does. I am just coming to that conclusion because it makes sense to think that.

1. Paul says whoever accept Jesus to be the messiah that is considered the seed of Abraham. 2. So through his eyes those Christians are the chosen people.
4. And when John says that whoever reject the messiah then they are the Antichrist.

Maybe it’s just me but I will never serve the antichrist. Because they are essentially guided by the evil, meaning their purpose is to guide a person away from the truth which is god
But yeah you made a good point that it’s open for interpretation and i respect that