Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
but we have the apostles writings. Why do we need 'their' writings??
And may I ask who 'they' are?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Christianity and Christian Scriptures.
- Thread starter ChristineES
- Start date
but we have the apostles writings. Why do we need 'their' writings??
And may I ask who 'they' are?
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Christianity is older than both the Bible and any of the denominations.
The various dogmas were established some around 300 years AD
They all ( including the much later JW 's) represent what those early denomination founders thought and reasoned to be a correct interpretation of what had come down to them, mainly through word of mouth.
Though many had speculated about the Trinity before St Cyril It was his council in 431 that established the form many churches follow to day. As was the concept that May was the theotokos (mother of God).
These thing were all arrive at by "Reason" and "Argument" they are not to be found in the Bible. Likewise the concept of the bread and wine being the Body and blood of Christ would have not been recognised by earlier Christians brought up on the Dideche.
The way we practice our Faith is an interpretation, agreed with others on how it should be done. it has no direct reference from any adopted scripture.
We believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit in these things, but it is hard to reconcile differences between the denominations if this is always the case.
The various Churches have always tried to establish their superiority and enforce their opinion on each other.
The various dogmas were established some around 300 years AD
They all ( including the much later JW 's) represent what those early denomination founders thought and reasoned to be a correct interpretation of what had come down to them, mainly through word of mouth.
Though many had speculated about the Trinity before St Cyril It was his council in 431 that established the form many churches follow to day. As was the concept that May was the theotokos (mother of God).
These thing were all arrive at by "Reason" and "Argument" they are not to be found in the Bible. Likewise the concept of the bread and wine being the Body and blood of Christ would have not been recognised by earlier Christians brought up on the Dideche.
The way we practice our Faith is an interpretation, agreed with others on how it should be done. it has no direct reference from any adopted scripture.
We believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit in these things, but it is hard to reconcile differences between the denominations if this is always the case.
The various Churches have always tried to establish their superiority and enforce their opinion on each other.
Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I AM WITH YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.
By your saying there is "no one like that" are you denying the resurrection to power of Jesus Christ?
Lol, so you just shot your whole anti-Catholic argument in the foot.
Why did Peter in Acts 2:38 say, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" if according to the great commission he was supposed to say in the name of god the father, the son and the holy spirit? Did he have Alzheimer's? Had he forgotten? Was he a maverick?
Isn't it great debating with people who simply copy and paste their replies without giving them thought. The fact that there are 4 such passages referring to "Jesus' name" only should make people winder why that was used intead of the trinitarian formula. It is a fact that the first "Christians", James, Peter, John et al preached from the temple and James acted as a Jewish high priest. Are you honestly expecting me to believe that James preached, "I am the lord thy God and you shall have no other gods before me, and by the way, god is my big brother". Jesus divinity was a later Christian dogma.
We're not supposed to be debating in here. This is a DIR:
10. Discuss Individual Religions Forums/Same Faith Debates/"Only Sections"
The DIR subforums are for the express use for discussion by that specific group. They are not to be used for debate by anyone. People of other groups or faiths may post respectful questions to increase their understanding. Questions of a rhetorical or argumentative nature or that counter the beliefs of that DIR are not permitted. DIR areas are not to be used as cover to bash others outside the faith. The DIR forums are strictly moderated and posts are subject to editing or removal.
-For any DIR or discussion sub-forum that is colored blue, non-members of that area are limited only to respectful questions, and are not allowed to make any non-question posts.
-For any DIR or discussion sub-forum that is colored green, non-members of that area may make respectful posts that comply with the tenets and spirit of that area. This includes questions, as well as knowledgeable comments.
Religious Education Forum - FAQ: vBulletin FAQ
Those were descriptions and not formulas. Descriptions given don't override the formula given by Jesus Christ.
"They" refers to the direct and personal students and companions of the Apostles, who learned from the Apostles, preached with the Apostles, and were personally chosen by the Apostles to succeed them in the various churches throughout the world. In other words, "they" refers to the Apostolic Fathers.
You cannot pretend that 30 years' worth of apostolic preaching and teaching were fully captured in 14 short epistles, or that 30 years' worth of Church teaching and practice and history were entirely compiled in one small book. We need the writings of the Apostolic Fathers to complete the picture of what the Apostles wrote down. In the early Church, the written word was nowhere near as valued as oral, teacher-student teaching. Furthermore, not one of the churches had all the books of what would later become the NT, and none of them even had all four of the Gospels.
So if we want to get a complete idea of what early Christianity was teaching, we have to use more than just the Bible, because the New Testament didn't even exist back then, nor was any of the NT considered Scripture in the early days. It is in the traditions of the early Church that we discover the faith of the early Church, of which the New Testament only forms a tiny, tiny part.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
but this is where we need to be careful....what if some of these apostolic fathers were not keeping true to the teachings of the apostles?
Even in the writings of the Christian scriptures we find the Apostles warning us of the dangers of christians who were bringing strange ideas even when they were still here. The Apostles often mention these christians in their letters. Some examples:
3John 9 I wrote something to the congregation, but Di·ot′re·phes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not accept anything from us with respect. 10 That is why if I come, I will call attention to the works he is doing in spreading malicious talk about us. Not being content with this, he refuses to welcome the brothers with respect; and those who want to welcome them, he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.
Peters warning at 2Peter 2:1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words. But their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping.
1 Timothy 4:1 However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons,
1John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world
So the Apostles were quite aware of the false teachings among them even while they were still alive. So what do you think happened when there were no more apostles around? Do you think these false teachers quietly went away and never bothered the christian congregation again???
its beginning to sound very similar to what happened among the Jews. They had the hebrew scriptures, but by Jesus day, the 'traditions of men' were given first place and the actual word of God relegated to a back seat.
Last edited:
Then the Apostles would have known this and cast them out. The congregations would know that this is not the tradition that they were taught to hold fast to, and would have cast the heretics out. The flock knows when a wolf is among them.
I know that the Apostles appointed successors who were strong in the true Faith, and I know that the Holy Spirit protected the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15), guiding us into all truth (John 16:13), and that Jesus promised that the gates of Hades would never prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18-19).
Yes, there were heretics and false teachers. But with all these divine promises that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit would protect the Church, it is absolutely impossible that the Church would fall. Yes, there would be false teachers, but these would always be cast out by the Good Shepherd and those appointed by Him to assist in guarding the flock. Nor is there ever a hint in the Scriptures that the Church would ever fall into heresy. Individuals may fall away, but the Church will never fall into falsehood. The Great Apostasy is a thoroughly unbiblical teaching, with absolutely nothing to support it. I've seen all the verses you try to use, and not a single one of them supports the idea of a Great Apostasy where the entire Church falls away and ceases to exist.
The Hebrew Scriptures are the traditions and stories of the people of Israel written down centuries after the events happened. All the Traditions of the Church serve as means to teach the Christian faith. If you know the Psalms, the Prophets, the Gospels and the Epistles, you can link almost every action and every prayer in the Orthodox Christian's life to verses of Scripture.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
We do know what the early Judo-Christians were teaching to their new members, from about 50 AD, as we have a full copy of the Didache. it was certainly still in use up to AD300 and was still being laboriously copied in AD1000.
Baptisms were performed "in the Name of the father; and in the name of the Son; and in the name of the holy spirit". Though there is no hint that they had any concept of the Trinity used today. The style of the koine Greek that it is written in, indicate that it is a transcription of the original oral form.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
We know very little about what the Apostles taught in their missions, except perhaps for Paul who was an inveterate letter writer. Some of the Apostles seem to have simply vanished in terms of what they taught.
We do know that the differences between them were argued out in Jerusalem.
but we do not know the details about the lesser disagreements that were never recorded. But we do know that they had disagreements.
It would be wrong to suppose that there ever was even a partially unified church or established dogma before the AD300's
Such authority as there was in the early church, was centred in Jerusalem not Rome.
Last edited:
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the Apostles of Jesus were all dead by the end of the 1st century.... the so-called 'apostolic fathers' appear from the 2nd centuries onward. So the question remains, who were keeping them in check if the Apostles were no longer around?
Can you be 100% sure that they remained in the teachings of the Apostles?
There is no mention of the appointment of successors in the Scriptures. So I dont believe that is the case at all.
But the scriptures themselves do warn us that christians would fall away from the truth and speak twisted lies and they themselves would become the 'man of lawlessness'
1 Timothy 4:1 However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons,
2 Timothy 2:16-18 But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·nae′us and Phi·le′tus are among them. 18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.
2 Timothy 4:3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.
2 Peter 2:1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.
1 John 2:18, 19 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.
Did you never read Jesus illustration about the wheat and the weeds?
Matthew 13:24 He presented another illustration to them, saying: The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds? 28 He said to them, An enemy, a man, did this. The slaves said to him, Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them? 29 He said, No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.
What do you make of this illustration?
30,000+ demominations says otherwise.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
It has to be different. The church isn't the Bible, and the Bible isn't the church. The Bible is a snapshot, and maybe not a very accurate one, of the earliest churches. These churches continued to grow and their experience of God changed.
Yes, I can be 100% sure. Do you doubt the power of the Holy Spirit to lead the Church into all truth, which Christ promised would happen? The congregations and anyone who knew the traditions of the Apostles, which the Apostles did hand down to everyone. The Church is ultimately self-regulating in terms of maintaining correct doctrine; everyone corrects everyone else. The Holy Spirit hasn't gone anywhere, nor will He. He will always remain with the Church.
That's because most of the Scriptures were either written before successors were appointed, or because the point of the Scriptures wasn't to relate an exact history of the Church. The Bible is not a compendium of Christian history. It is, as angellous said, a snapshot, and maybe not a very accurate one, of the earliest churches.
You limit your knowledge of early Christian history to a Bible which tells us very, very little of that history. If you want to actually understand Christian history, you HAVE to look at sources outside the Bible, written by the first Christians. That is the ONLY way you will get a comprehensive view of Christian history.
Yes, a few, but nowhere does Scripture say that the entire Church would fall, or that the majority of the Church would fall.
Yes, but I don't see where the weeds overtake the wheat, leading to the ruin of the crop. I see a few problems in the crop, but as the tares mature, they become clearly distinguished from the wheat, so within a short time, you know whether someone is a wheat or a tare.
I will see your 30,000 denominations, the vast majority having no more than a few hundred followers, and raise you 1.5 billion Catholics and Orthodox.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
it was the holy spirit which revealed that the church would become corrupted by an 'enemy who sowed weeds'
We know who the enemy of Christ is...and we know what he teaches. Any church who promotes the teachings of Christs enemy are in fact the 'weeds'
our interest should be more on the history of the Apostles as opposed to the later christians. If we based our form of worship on the christians of later centuries, then we might be at risk of following the 'weeds' rather then the 'wheat'
When we govern ourselves only by the writings of Jesus Apostles, we know that we are being governed by Christ. And only he is the one we should be following, dont you think?
There are so many thousands of demoninations of christian in the world....who are they followiong? The church fathers? or Jesus Apostles?
Why risk it???
Remember Jesus words: Matt 15:13 In reply he said: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Just stick to the Christian scriptures...they have everything we need to be fully equipped to serve God in the way he approves.
if you follow a weed, you will reap the same reward as the weed.
Remember, following one blind man will see you fall into a pit.
and the fruits of those two churches are not good.
I mean, think back to the murderous inquisitions, the crusades, the involvement in politics and war, the prolific sex abuse, the financial scandles at the vatican...how can that be overlooked? When did Jesus ever give instructions to murder someone who disagreed with the teachings, or to saddle up with Ceaser and go to war, or to enrich the church and turn it into a business???
Luke 6:43 “For no fine tree produces rotten fruit, and no rotten tree produces fine fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For example, people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they cut grapes off a thornbush
Take it to heart.
Last edited:
But did the Holy Spirit say that the Church would fall away, or be wholly taken over by heresy, or that the growths of heresy would not be rooted out? No. In fact, this verse from 1 John says it all: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
All heretics and anti-christs will separate themselves from the Church, not remain within it, because they are not one of us. The light shines within the darkness, and the darkness will not overcome it. The Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ's body can never be corrupted by sin.
Yes. We have been combatting Christ's enemies for the past 2,000 years, and we're still going strong--we've never lost a battle to the enemy yet.
Except, the Bible doesn't tell us much of anything about how Christians in the first century worshipped. Yes, they sang Psalms, had the Eucharist, intercessory prayer, reading from the Scriptures and a sermon--all of which we Orthodox and Catholics do, by the way--but what did their worship look like? What prayers were said? What Psalms were sung? How much time was spent on each? What did the entire structure of the first Christian Liturgy look like? Our best estimate is the Liturgy of St. James.
And we do govern ourselves by the teaching of Jesus' Apostles. We follow the directive that St. Paul gave to the Thessalonians: Hold fast to the traditions you were taught, either by oral word or by written letter.
What Jesus taught, the Apostles preached and the Fathers kept.
Where do the Scriptures make this claim about themselves?
Which is why I reject the weeds and follow the wheat.
You act as if these are the only things the Church has ever done. Look at the tens of thousands of charities, soup kitchens, mission trips to build homes, schools and provide safe drinking water for people in impoverished countries, writing the Scriptures which we all hold so dear, providing schooling for children, acting as major centers of learning, science and the arts, opening and operating hospitals, spreading the word of God throughout the world--you yourself would never have been Christian today if it wasn't for the work that the Catholic Church did in Western Europe during the medieval times; you and I would have both grown up as pagans. Without Catholicism, the Jehovah's Witnesses would not exist.
Take that to heart.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
Romans 15:4 For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope
2 Peter 1:19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place (until day dawns and a daystar rises) in your hearts.
The first century christians needed only the scriptures and teaching of the Apostles. They didnt need anything besides these.
All these things are very good and noble, but they are not the things Christ asked christians to pursue.
Let me just give you a little illustration. Imagine you call a babysitter to come and look after your kids for the evening. You give the sitter instructions on what you would like her to do.
At 6pm you want the kids to have dinner. At 7pm you want them bathed and changed for bed. At 8pm you want them put in bed and a story read and by 8.30 you want them asleep.
But when you come home at 10pm, the kids are still awake, they havn't had their dinner nor have they had a bath. You ask the baby sitter why not and she says... well I saw your roof needed fixing so I fixed a small hole. Then i noticed the walls were a little dirty so i gave them a really good clean. I also took the dog for a walk because he seemed a bit lonely outside. And now I've just been re-organising your cupboards to make it easier for you to find things.
Do you think the parents are happy with all this good work the baby sitter has done? She was only given one important job to do and that was to ensure the children were fed, bathed and put to bed....but she did none of that.
She hasn't looked after the children, but she did a great job on the housework.
Thats how i see the church... great job on the housework, but not a lot of follow through on the actually Job Jesus gave his disciples.
Last edited:
I lost interest years ago on how I personally would read the Bible because you are most certainly going to read it differently then someone else or some other group.
Personally, I think that is the wrong approach to take and the cause of much of the division within Christianity.
Reading early church history and how early Christians wrote about matters of faith will completely alter the way you read the Bible.
Lastly, the question of authority is of up most importance in this as well. Unless you solve these two issues (interpretation and authority), you aren't going anywhere except to create more fragments within Christianity.
Since it is not my horse in the race, I will just point out that I fully agree.
I'm honestly not sure why anyone would choose scripture over living doctrine.