Christianity Continues Decline in America: Pew Survey Results

[Tumah]

No, I was referring to conquest of nations like the areas and indigenous of spain, france, germany, England, et al. Yes, I will grant you the treatment of the Jews was far regrettable and sinful, but a very different case. Even during the Inquisitions the primary objective was to keep “holy” and “pure” the Catholic faith and not the trials of heathens or other unbelievers, including Jews. The fake Jewish "conversos" were a pointed focus of scrutiny and punishment.

So, again, I am not claiming "saintliness" was always the machinations of Rome, but I still maintain Christianity spread throughout Europe without forced conversions, by and large. Even the events of the New World, far too much blame of the treatment of the natives is put upon the Church and not the monarchies and their minions. Which does not even touch upon the conversions of the Indian people, that too is maligned in its treatment. The Jesuits were far more good to the people than the opposite.

Germany like Charlemagne forcibly converting the Saxons? Wikipedia has a bunch of cases.
It says there that Pope Innocent III in 1201 pronounced forced conversions as binding. That would suggest it is occurred often enough as to garner papal attention. I mean I don't really know much about this issue, but that's just what I would think.

 

[sun rise]

You know, Sunrise, I get the sense that you don't need a concept of god, but did not fully realize that.

I would agree that I don't need an intellectual concept of God. But I do believe in an absolute. And I believe that absolute incarnates as a man (Avatar).

 

[Jumi]

Christianity is not, by and large, anything about forced conversions. Some have erred, but very few. It is mostly about taking great risks with their own lives to first help others with their most basic needs to sustain themselves. And only then to share the gospel with them for their spiritual needs. If they refuse to accept Christ they are not driven away. That I believe.

History would be quite different if there were no forced conversions. You know those knights in shining armor going about destroying pagan statues and the forcing the pagans to be baptised. The destruction was still going on not long ago as you can see from how indigenous people's describe the conversion of their children in song...

The playing field was never level.

 

[Jumi]

Germany like Charlemagne forcibly converting the Saxons? Wikipedia has a bunch of cases.
It says there that Pope Innocent III in 1201 pronounced forced conversions as binding. That would suggest it is occurred often enough as to garner papal attention. I mean I don't really know much about this issue, but that's just what I would think.

And the Northern Crusades that happened after that. My ancestors were a target and it's known even to Christians here. There's even many lakes that people washed their baptisms off in disgust after the event. One of them quite near to me in fact.

 

[JoStories]

You misunderstood my post. This is the second time in different threads that this has happened to us. But anyway, first of all I'm not seeing it as agnosticism but perhaps a weak theism. It may not be a bad thing as it is may be paving the way for a better post-Christian spiritual landscape of the western world.


That's OK by me, it happens. I was raised Catholic and am now an Advaita Hindu.


No, or I wouldn't have done it myself. We are seeing the spiritual landscape evolve before our eyes.


I agree (that's why I am saying you read something into my post that I didn't intend)

Ah... Mea culpa for misunderstanding George. Namaste!

 

[Jumi]

I'm part Saxon, and not baptized. So, personally, nothing to wash off.

Well it's kind of superstitious trying to wash it off. I'm baptized during christening and gone through confirmation not because I wanted to though... both events meant nothing to me.

Another thing is that it used to be so you couldn't get married if you weren't a confirmed Christian, it was a powerful conversion tool. Nowadays it's just required if you want to get married in a Church.

 

[thau]

Germany like Charlemagne forcibly converting the Saxons? Wikipedia has a bunch of cases.
It says there that Pope Innocent III in 1201 pronounced forced conversions as binding. That would suggest it is occurred often enough as to garner papal attention. I mean I don't really know much about this issue, but that's just what I would think.

Well fine and be that as it may. I cannot defend every act done in the name of Christianity especially during the Middle Ages. It was a different time as to how transgressions were dealt with and as to how progress should have been undertaken. Nor can I attest to the wars between Catholics and Protestants in the 16th and 17th centuries. No doubt many acts of wrongdoing, even evil, were done by Christian people or leaders. But that would surely be the case for all of humanity and all religions and all ideologies. I guess our Lord knew this but used weak vessels to still provide the most important message to a lost world. I also believe the case can be made that Christianity has been the greatest blessing upon humankind in terms of civilizing barbarians, creating a system of education and universities, providing hospitals and care for the abandoned, and for bringing the real truth about God and salvation.

Now here we are in an age of information and freedom and enormous advancements upon caring for our world. If you believe this is all a bunch of baloney and prefer to follow some other God or prefer to just live your life as you please and let the chips fall as they may when you die, well, you have that freedom to do so. But to ignore what I contend are the signs and wonders that God has revealed because of your disgust by how some have acted sinfully, well, I maintain that lacks prudence in some ways. I, for one, want nothing but salvation for my family and that is my salient mission.

 

[JoStories]

Which is an interesting factor to note. China will not grow larger because it "won't be allowed." By the regime in charge.

Which says to me this --- if there were a level playing field and all religions were able to show their wares to those interested, Christianity would be the clear victor and religion of choice. It works that way in poor countries. It is the affluent materially focused nations that tend to "lose their religion." Because now they feel less dependent on God to help them attain basic needs in life and a basic level of contentment. They become more self centered.

That is why America, Canada and Western Europe have declined in Christian worship. They have become self-centered, materialistic, hedonistic and do not have time for God. Totally unbelievable to someone like me.

I strongly disagree with several of your points. First, I don't believe that Christianity would be the choice of many. There is a serious decline in the antiquated tenets of your faith. People are tired of being placated by people telling them they 'sin' or have to tap dance to a old tune that is now out of date. Is is not to say that Christianity does not have some excellent things to offer those interested. But the faith itself needs to bring itself into the present. And secondly, not everyone who doesn't wish to follow your faith has become hedonistic. Many are now drawn to eastern faiths which offer self reflection and some excellent values. Materialism is far down on the list when it comes to eastern faiths. First of all, the unrealistic choice of 'heaven V hell' is something thst many find untenable. Th denial of living ones life to the fullest and trying to,live up to old ideals doesn't appeal to young people. Nor does sitting in church listening to someone drone on about things that have no meaning in their lives. Sorry for the long post.

 

[Jumi]

Your post confused me. What do atheists believe if not materialism? "Spiritual but not religious" people can believe in God and not follow organized religion. But what can an atheist believe if not that the material world is all that there is?

Not all spiritual people believe in Gods. There are even religious people who don't believe in God.

 

[JoStories]

I dare say that is the exception and the way history tells stories are not fair or close to the truth. I am not denying some conquests in the New World were handled improperly but nor will I concede that Christianity is known by a conversion by the sword. Quite the opposite. It was never that way to begin with, and it surely has not been that way for many centuries. And yet this faith is embraced by the multitudes who hear it preached.

Horse merde. I would suggest you visit 2 museums, to start, the bishop in Honolulu, which chronicles the degradation of Hawaiians by alleged 'missionaries' who refused to allow them to speak their own language, to dance, to even wear the clothing that was a part of their culture, among other atrocities. Then go to the Phoenix museum and see the pictures of native Americans forced to wear 'English' clothing, not allowed to speak Hopi, or Navajo, or Apache, to attend your schools, etc. those are just 2 examples of the things your 'missionaries' have done. Then, I suggest you go to Africa and see what they have done there. The one thing I loathe more than anything of your faith is missionaries. Did you know that when that huge earthquake hit Haiti, people were refused water unless they converted to your faith? One of my good friends, and himself a pastor of Christianity, left this country because of that and left his own faith. Personally, I think your faith has one hell of a lot to answer for.

 

[thau]

Horse merde. I would suggest you visit 2 museums, to start, the bishop in Honolulu, which chronicles the degradation of Hawaiians by alleged 'missionaries' who refused to allow them to speak their own language, to dance, to even wear the clothing that was a part of their culture, among other atrocities. Then go to the Phoenix museum and see the pictures of native Americans forced to wear 'English' clothing, not allowed to speak Hopi, or Navajo, or Apache, to attend your schools, etc. those are just 2 examples of the things your 'missionaries' have done. Then, I suggest you go to Africa and see what they have done there. The one thing I loathe more than anything of your faith is missionaries. Did you know that when that huge earthquake hit Haiti, people were refused water unless they converted to your faith? One of my good friends, and himself a pastor of Christianity, left this country because of that and left his own faith. Personally, I think your faith has one hell of a lot to answer for.

Look, I have already conceded many sins or misgivings by the early evangelism of the faith and by some missionaries. I get it. What I do not get is that you are holding on to some "message of gold" as to what the world should know about who they are, where they came from, and where they may be going. Or is none of that important to you?

I have little need for another critic to search the secular humanist take on all of history and remind us that the Catholic Church created this evil or that evil and pretend that if that Church were not around, if there were no Savior or martyrs or missionaries, that all would be well with this world. I find such a ploy to be devoid of goodness, truth or charity. I find it to be filled with pride and even dishonesty or worse.

So please make your point succinctly. Tell us what not to do and what we should do. And spare me the golden rule because we all love the golden rule. We all wish we "could all just get along" but history shows that the powerful become corrupt and the masses always suffer. So what are you going to do about it? Just become a critic of those who have made great strides to assist yet also have weaknesses of their own?

 

[thau]

I strongly disagree with several of your points. First, I don't believe that Christianity would be the choice of many. There is a serious decline in the antiquated tenets of your faith. People are tired of being placated by people telling them they 'sin' or have to tap dance to a old tune that is now out of date. Is is not to say that Christianity does not have some excellent things to offer those interested. But the faith itself needs to bring itself into the present. And secondly, not everyone who doesn't wish to follow your faith has become hedonistic. Many are now drawn to eastern faiths which offer self reflection and some excellent values. Materialism is far down on the list when it comes to eastern faiths. First of all, the unrealistic choice of 'heaven V hell' is something thst many find untenable. Th denial of living ones life to the fullest and trying to,live up to old ideals doesn't appeal to young people. Nor does sitting in church listening to someone drone on about things that have no meaning in their lives. Sorry for the long post.

>>First, I don't believe that Christianity would be the choice of many. <<

I believe it would based on history alone, when the opportunity to share the faith was not prohibited in so many ways.


>>There is a serious decline in the antiquated tenets of your faith. People are tired of being placated by people telling them they 'sin' or have to tap dance to a old tune that is now out of date. <<

What is antiquated? People are tired of eternal truths and laws? Well some probably are, but I have my reasons for thinking why that may be and it has nothing to do with the unfairness or unimportance of those “antiquated tenets.”


>>It is not to say that Christianity does not have some excellent things to offer those interested. But the faith itself needs to bring itself into the present. <<

We disagree of course. And what do you mean by bringing itself “into the present?” You mean like telling the world abortion is humane and gay marriage is the right thing for society? Since our faith teaches all sex outside of marriage is wrong (even if it cannot be avoided) do not expect us to make exceptions for homosexual sex. We understand it is going to occur, we understand this does not make their sin any worse than our own sins, but we also understand that to formally make immoral matters part of our “constitution” so-to-speak and celebrate that right is an affront to God’s laws. So pardon our push back.


>>And secondly, not everyone who doesn't wish to follow your faith has become hedonistic. Many are now drawn to eastern faiths which offer self reflection and some excellent values. <<

How many? I am speaking of Christian nations especially America and Europe. Very few converts to eastern religions, mostly converts to “no practicing faith” and materialism. What is important to someone who does not believe in God, heaven or hell? Is it not personal happiness and the same for those dear to them? And is that not accomplished through financial success and financial security for the future? Do you really believe if someone does not feel any guilt or accountability to a higher being that they will not be more prone to commit various “sins?” Especially of the carnal nature?


>>First of all, the unrealistic choice of 'heaven V hell' is something that many find untenable.<<

Oh, no doubt. But are we not here to debate whether that is true or not? And since we believe it is very much the truth when one dies, how can you possibly expect us not to make that our most prominent objective? What is a nice life here on earth compared to risking the fires of hell?


>> The denial of living ones life to the fullest and trying to,live up to old ideals doesn't appeal to young people. Nor does sitting in church listening to someone drone on about things that have no meaning in their lives. Sorry for the long post.<<

Yes, you are probably right in many or most cases. And that is my lament. The young people have been poorly educated by their parents. Their values have been greatly altered. Their parents have gone soft in this well-off nation which is why they have not done their godly duty properly.

There is a lot more to honoring God than just listening to a sermon. But to suggest such words “have no meaning in their lives” speaks volumes. I guess it is only when one feels a great need for help will they turn to the one above, but as long as life is good, "those words" must have no meaning for their lives?

 

[MD]

I've been discovering that the loss of the 'old' religion isn't only happening in the West, it is also happening in Iran and Kurdistan in the younger generations. There are a lot of people in those regions who do not practice Islam or are cultural Muslims, and some of them are atheists while others are quietly adopting new faiths: Christianity, Bahai and Zoroastrianism. However, since these are Islamic areas official stats are hard to come by and it's not officially celebrated or condoned.

I do feel the general trend eventually will be towards a global society where the majority are theists or spiritual, but where the importance religion plays in public affairs will diminish tremendously. This will take centuries imo, given the rise of Islamism in many parts of the Muslim world and Hindu nationalism in India.

 

[sun rise]

Not all spiritual people believe in Gods. There are even religious people who don't believe in God.

I never asserted that they did.

 

[Jumi]

I never asserted that they did.

I'm reading your earlier post and it seems to say that, but if you say so, I might be wrong.

 

[Muffled]

A Pew survey released yesterday shows American Christianity has declined from 78.4% of the population to 70.6%, with most losses attributable to mainline Protestantism. Over 22% of the US population is now religiously unaffiliated, the so-called "Nones." The survey compares results from a similar 2007 survey to demonstrate the shift in religious demographics, including the rise of the unaffiliated. The only group larger than the unaffiliated is Protestant Evangelicals.

Millennials are more likely to be unaffiliated as well, and appear to be driving the decline of American Christianity:

One of the most important factors in the declining share of Christians and the growth of the “nones” is generational replacement. As the Millennial generation enters adulthood, its members display much lower levels of religious affiliation, including less connection with Christian churches, than older generations. Fully 36% of young Millennials (those between the ages of 18 and 24) are religiously unaffiliated, as are 34% of older Millennials (ages 25-33). And fewer than six-in-ten Millennials identify with any branch of Christianity, compared with seven-in-ten or more among older generations, including Baby Boomers and Gen-Xers. Just 16% of Millennials are Catholic, and only 11% identify with mainline Protestantism. Roughly one-in-five are evangelical Protestants.

The first wave of Millennials have become less religious since 2007, registering a 9 percentage drop in religious affiliation. There have also been gains in the Generation X cohort and among Baby Boomers. And for every one person who has switched from being raised unaffiliated to a particular religious affiliation, there are more than four people who have switched to unaffiliated after being raised with a religious affiliation. The only major group that has gained more than it has lost is Evangelical Protestants, and only a net of 2% points which may indicate it has simply remained stable. The retention rate for the unaffiliated has also increased by 7% over the seven year period. They are also increasingly assertive:

As the ranks of the religiously unaffiliated continue to grow, they also describe themselves in increasingly secular terms. In 2007, 25% of the “nones” called themselves atheists or agnostics; 39% identified their religion as “nothing in particular” and also said that religion is “not too” or “not at all” important in their lives; and 36% identified their religion as “nothing in particular” while nevertheless saying that religion is either “very important” or “somewhat important” in their lives. The new survey finds that the atheist and agnostic share of the “nones” has grown to 31%. Those identifying as “nothing in particular” and describing religion as unimportant in their lives continue to account for 39% of all “nones.” But the share identifying as “nothing in particular” while also affirming that religion is either “very” or “somewhat” important to them has fallen to 30% of all “nones.”

I would be interested to see more detail in the Evangelical numbers. The largest evangelical denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, is in decline. The slight, perhaps statistically insignificant growth of Evangelicals might be attributable to Pentecostalism if the US mirrors global Christian demographic trends.

So what do you make of the cause of this trend? Is the rise of secularism still too slow? What will happen to mainline Protestantism and Catholicism?

I believe this was prophesied by Paul as the Apostasy. I believe it is a separation of sheep from goats. The churches will be left with real Chistians instead of pretend Christians.

 

[Muffled]

If Russia was actually experiencing ascendancy that might be relevant. And while Christianity is growing in China, it is still a tiny percentage of the population. I suspect it won't be allowed to grow much larger.

I believe that is not how it works. The church grows faster the more it is persecuted.

 

[Muffled]

America hasn't been on the active decline for a while. There was a short decline but that was worldwide and we are currently going back up. Crime is still decreasing, teen childbirth are decreasing and our economy is increasing. All while religion is decreasing.

I believe what is increasing are the numbers of public shootings. What is decreasing are constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I believe what is increasing are the numbers of public shootings. What is decreasing are constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.

And how is religion affected this? Why is it that we have far more school shootings than England? Does it have to do with our liberal policy on gun usage and ownership? I would think so. The number of homosexuals committing suicide has dropped. They have dropped significantly more where there are gay-strait alliances. These have been fought against tooth and nail by religious groups and religious fundamentalist presences. In fact one could link the proportional relationship and even causal relationship of high amounts of LGBT suicide rates to religious rates.