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Christianity Continues Decline in America: Pew Survey Results

thau

Well-Known Member
Don't forget that Christianity was also spread by the sword also and for a long time in many countries it was not allowed to be anything but Christian. Some exceptions were made for the older Abrahamics, but even they were sometimes forced to take baptism.

I dare say that is the exception and the way history tells stories are not fair or close to the truth. I am not denying some conquests in the New World were handled improperly but nor will I concede that Christianity is known by a conversion by the sword. Quite the opposite. It was never that way to begin with, and it surely has not been that way for many centuries. And yet this faith is embraced by the multitudes who hear it preached.
 
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Kirran

Premium Member
What about how Christian missionaries in India offer medicine on condition that people spit on their pictures of the deities and convert to Christianity?

That kind of thing is vastly widespread.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
What about how Christian missionaries in India offer medicine on condition that people spit on their pictures of the deities and convert to Christianity?

That kind of thing is vastly widespread.

Link? Vastly widespread?

Based on my limited knowledge most Christian missionaries do not refuse medicine or care to the needy unless they convert. This is an important point to be factual on by the way. I doubt the nuns taking the very sickly and dying off the streets of Calcutta first ask if they are willing to convert before they proceed. I know that is not what God or their Church is asking them to do either.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Link? Vastly widespread?

Based on my limited knowledge most Christian missionaries do not refuse medicine or care to the needy unless they convert. This is an important point to be factual on by the way. I doubt the nuns taking the very sickly and dying off the streets of Calcutta first ask if they are willing to convert before they proceed. I know that is not what God or their Church is asking them to do either.

My knowledge of this is anecdotal. So you can throw it out as hearsay if you so choose.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
They don't flat out refuse but there is a huge pressure. I mean yeah you just gave my children their first meal in weeks and I had a deadly infection that you saved me from so yeah...why don't I Just go sit for an hour next Sunday to hear about your god. Sure. What kind of *** would refuse that?

Its coercion plain and simple. I can't really fault them for trying to help but I can fault them for the recruitment methods. One of the first buildings they build when they go to a new place is a church. Sometimes its a school but usually its a church.
 

Baladas

An Págánach
What about how Christian missionaries in India offer medicine on condition that people spit on their pictures of the deities and convert to Christianity?

That kind of thing is vastly widespread.

That's horrible! I've never heard of that. Certainly not the type of things my friends would do.

Although, I am seeing more and more that my former Christian faith is far from the major form Christianity takes.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
That's horrible! I've never heard of that. Certainly not the type of things my friends would do.

Although, I am seeing more and more that my former Christian faith is far from the majority.

No, I imagine not. But the activities of some Christian missionaries in India have been atrocious.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash Christianity. But I want to point out how many Christian conversions really ain't so great.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I personally prefer the company of honorable people who believe in truth, justice, beauty and love as worthwhile in and of themselves compared to people who are totally certain they have a monopoly on virtue and the rest of us are damned. Of course, some people are convinced that they alone have the truth and others are stupid idiots. But the basic idea works for me.
Strawman.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
A quote from a Catholic priest running a school in a Tamil area: 'The boys in my school may not come out Christian, but they'll certainly never be good Hindus.'

Also, this link is interesting:

Women in Agra village lured into Christianity while husbands stay Hindus

Historically, in the West, Africa etc, I believe most conversion to Christianity has been for economic and social opportunities that people were otherwise deprived of.

Two accounts given. The first one does not make it clear, by any means, that the money given for education, housing, etc. has to be returned if the husbands do not convert. Yes, in that particular case, but more evidence is needed. I see in the second example they attributed this coercion to one man doing it all. That is what the article said so is that a good representation of how Christian missionaries operate in India?

I am sure I can find many articles or documentation how Christianity is being persecuted in India in many ways and violently often enough. And yet, missionaries remain, the care given is vast, and the numbers of converts continues to grow. Same for far more dangerous countries like Muslim countries, like Asian countries. In Africa, the growth is exponential year after year. Are you suggesting it is all done with the lure of a meal or by lying about the faith? I seriously doubt it for many reasons.

This is what Wikipedia reports under the subject “Forced Conversions” with respect to Hindus and Christians specifically in India. Hardly sounds like anything close to the norm given the larger scope of the endeavor.

Forced conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christians in India
The Baptist Church of Tripura is alleged to have supplied the NLFT with arms and financial support and to have encouraged the murder of Hindus, particularly infants, as a means to depopulate the region of all Hindus.[28] In 2009, the Assam Times reported that about fifteen armed Hmar militants, members of Manmasi National Christian Army, tried to force Hindu residents of Bhuvan Pahar, Assam to convert to Christianity.[29] A few Christian evangelists in India have been accused of forced conversion of Hindus, and some of them have been for allegedly converting others by force.

Hinduism
Indian Christians have alleged that "radical Hindu groups" in Orissa, India have forced Christian converts from Hinduism to "revert" to Hinduism. These "religious riots" were largely between two tribal groups in Orissa, one of which was predominantly Hindu and another predominantly Christian, over the assassination of a Hindu leader named Swami Lakshmanananda by Christian Maoists operating as terrorist groups in India (see Naxalite). In the aftermath of the violence, American Christian evangelical groups have claimed that Hindu groups are "forcibly reverting" Christians converts from Hinduism back to Hinduism. It has also been alleged that radical Hind groups like Vishwa Hindu Parishad have converted poor Muslims and Christians to Hinduism against their will and through allurements.

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Christianity is not, by and large, anything about forced conversions. Some have erred, but very few. It is mostly about taking great risks with their own lives to first help others with their most basic needs to sustain themselves. And only then to share the gospel with them for their spiritual needs. If they refuse to accept Christ they are not driven away. That I believe.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I'm just saying it's not so simple. It's not all by coercion, but there has been plenty of conversion due to coercion, the sword etc too.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I dare say that is the exception and the way history tells stories are not fair or close to the truth. I am not denying some conquests in the New World were handled improperly but nor will I concede that Christianity is known by a conversion by the sword. Quite the opposite. It was never that way to begin with, and it surely has not been that way for many centuries. And yet this faith is embraced by the multitudes who hear it preached.
I'm not speaking just about the conquest of the Americas, I'm speaking about Europe.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
I'm not speaking just about the conquest of the Americas, I'm speaking about Europe.

Here is an excerpt and a very basic summary of that period from an entirely secular website which has no Christian cause to advance. If there were pockets of forced conversions that must be the extent of it because they keep alluding to these invading pagan hoardes who converted themselves after they conquered European lands.

How Christianity Rose to Dominate Europe

Upon the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, secular authority broke down throughout the former Roman Empire Western and Central Europe. As invading Germanic tribes took control of former Roman lands, the rule of law became virtually non-existent. The Roman Catholic Church organizational apparatus remained intact though, causing the Christianized masses to look to the Church first and foremost for guidance during this chaotic time. Thus, the power and influence of the Roman Catholic Church continued to grow.

However, other hallmarks of Roman life dwindled, including education. This only served the Catholic Church even more, as it was relied upon for knowledge of the world, as clergy were typically among the rare few that became literate and educated. Naturally, they primarily imparted only faith-promoting religious knowledge, not wanting to distract its congregations from the path to salvation.

The Catholic churches also served as libraries for secular literature, including non-religious philosophical writings, such as those from Greek philosophers. This material was not shared with congregations, becoming largely forgotten during the Dark Ages. Many (perhaps most) of these writings became lost during the Medieval times. Critics accuse the Catholic Church of intentionally purging these non-religious writings, but there is little to no direct evidence of this. Many books were lost due to natural perishability of books, and barbaric raids (such as the Huns), contributing to the Dark Ages by inhibiting illuminating worldly knowledge.

In a very real sense, the Catholic Church became the "information highway" of the Middle Ages, controlling the message dispersed to the masses, and thereby strongly influencing beliefs, attitudes and actions. In addition to "pagan" philosophies, many other fields of knowledge were suppressed, such as science, technology, etc.

The Roman Catholic Church not only controlled the flow of information, but they also had a strong say in secular politics, becoming "kingmakers". Kings that aligned with the Church gained an advantage with the large, Christian populations left behind by the collapse of the Roman Empire. Most Germanic kings learned this quickly, adopting Christianity soon after conquering former Roman provinces. The Ostrogoths converted after conquering Italy, the Franks converted after conquering Gaul (roughly approximate to modern France), and the Visigoths converted after conquering Hispania (modern Spain and Portugal). Doing so enabled each to consolidate rule in their new kingdoms, gaining support amongst their new subjects.

In addition to lending their approval of a new ruler, the Church also aided kings and rulers in several other ways. For example, monasteries provided public relations support on behalf of the king. In exchange, the Church was given lands, and clergy were appointed to influential positions in the King's court, giving the Church a voice in policy.

The Church helped create laws during the Dark Ages throughout Europe as a result, including forced worship and conversions, increased tithes, and repression of anti-Church influences. Kings also benefited by more advantageous trade partnerships with fellow Christian kingdoms, etc.
 

Baladas

An Págánach
I doubt the veracity of second hand hand or even ''first hand'' anecdotal stories. but, then again, im a skeptic.
Oh, I hadn't realized it was anecdotal. Still though, these events are often based on something, no matter how rare.
It makes me sad to think of people being taken advantage of in that manner.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Oh, I hadn't realized it was anecdotal. Still though, these events are often based on something, no matter how rare.
It makes me sad to think of people being taken advantage of in that manner.
I think that whenever there are religious issues in a country, it becomes paramount to take the well being of the aspiring conversee in mind; that's always my take on it. Exeptions are the obvious ones, I don't think we really need to go there, I highly doubt that this is anything more than a freedom of religion issue, etc.

Now, anecdotal evidence is fine with me, as well. I have no problem presenting it if the topic is relevant...but...when one considers the entire situation, from what I know of it, I would not want to discourage someones right to change religions..that's all/
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
The current atheist movement accepts the position of matieralism without question and many are becoming as fundamentalist as the religions they criticize.

But anyways I am derailing the thread, this is about Christianity's decline more than philosophical perspectives.
"The current atheist movement" does not accept the position of materialism. The current "materialist" movement certainly does that, but not all atheists are materialists ... not by a long shot.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the current "atheist movement" (whatever that is) has "accepted the position of materialism"?
 
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