Christianity v. Secular Humanism

[Subduction Zone]

I agree with you--the Israelites were forbidden from trafficking, prostitution--and--wait for it--abortion. I give money and time both to ending sex slavery and murder. You have at least one double standard.

But abortion was okay for them if the wife of a husband cheated on her and nobody saw it.

Aside from your denial of what the Bible says about slavery where on Earth do you get the idea that the Old Testament banned abortion? Where was that forbidden? I think that you may have misinterpreted the Old Testament, again.

 

[We Never Know]

But abortion was okay for them if the wife of a husband cheated on her and nobody saw it.

Aside from your denial of what the Bible says about slavery where on Earth do you get the idea that the Old Testament banned abortion? Where was that forbidden? I think that you may have misinterpreted the Old Testament, again.

"if the wife of a husband cheated on her" what does that exactly mean?

If nobody saw it, how did anyone know it happened?

 

[Subduction Zone]

"if the wife of a husband cheated on her" what does that exactly mean?

If nobody saw it, how did anyone know it happened?

There are ways. Think about it. There were quite a few shepherds back in the day.

 

[night912]

I agree with you--the Israelites were forbidden from trafficking, prostitution--and--wait for it--abortion. I give money and time both to ending sex slavery and murder. You have at least one double standard.

No, you gave money and time to ending indentured servitude and murder. And I commend you for doing that. So sorry, but you're wrong about me having a double standard on that.

Since you brought up double standard, I just wanted to point out that you have a double standard for indentured servitude, in that you believe it's moral for the Israelites but it's immoral if others do it.

FYI,
That would be an example of not being moral absolutism.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You're the only one who is constantly avoiding talking about slavery, both in and out of the bible. Sometimes, things like this are needed in order for some individuals to realize that they're point is fallacious.

Since you finally admitted that you agree with others in here regarding slavery, in that it is not the same as indentured servitude, we can finally have the discussion about why slavery is immoral. Now that you yourself have shown that you understand the point that your opponents have made in regards to everytime that you bring up indentured servitude, that it is fallacious and simply just a dishonest response in order for you to avoid discussing about actual slavery.

So let's recap what was discussed. You contradicting yourself when you argue that biblical morality is absolute but provided evidence that shows that it is not absolute. You were also contradicting yourself when you said that your morality is based on biblical morality but provided evidence that you disagree with some of the things the bible teach as being moral. You may have said that slavery is morally right, but you contradict that by telling us that you donate money to agencies that are against slavery and is working to prevent/end slavery. That right there, shows that you actually believe that slavery is immoral.

Now that you've acknowledged that indentured servitude is irrelevant to slavery since they are two different and separate things, you can no longer use that as excuse to avoid discussing slavery. In doing so, you will only be showing that your way of thinking and reasoning is irrational.

So let's continue with this discussion regarding slavery in the bible.

Okay, let's continue--although my OP wasn't only about slavery. What is your question(s) for me?

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, you gave money and time to ending indentured servitude and murder. And I commend you for doing that. So sorry, but you're wrong about me having a double standard on that.

Since you brought up double standard, I just wanted to point out that you have a double standard for indentured servitude, in that you believe it's moral for the Israelites but it's immoral if others do it.

FYI,
That would be an example of not being moral absolutism.

I didn't say indentured servitude is only moral for Israelites to use. I said most westerners conflate both ANE slavery and ANE indentured servitude with antebellum slavery.

Economic exchange for servants on property or in a castle, etc. continued until at least the Enlightenment.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But abortion was okay for them if the wife of a husband cheated on her and nobody saw it.

Aside from your denial of what the Bible says about slavery where on Earth do you get the idea that the Old Testament banned abortion? Where was that forbidden? I think that you may have misinterpreted the Old Testament, again.

Your question is moot as it is predicated upon your prior false assertion that the Bible does not claim inerrancy/God's inspiration. You fell down but misunderstanding the very word "inspired".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your question is moot as it is predicated upon your prior false assertion that the Bible does not claim inerrancy/God's inspiration. You fell down but misunderstanding the very word "inspired".

Wrong again. I did not use your bogus definition of inspired.

But if you want to claim that almost the entire Bible is wrong feel free.

 

[night912]

Okay, let's continue--although my OP wasn't only about slavery. What is your question(s) for me?

It was about morality and slavery is within the boundaries of morality. So my questions is as follows.

Is slavery immoral? Based on your answer whether or not it's immoral, is it absolute?

 

[night912]

I didn't say indentured servitude is only moral for Israelites to use. I said most westerners conflate both ANE slavery and ANE indentured servitude with antebellum slavery.

Economic exchange for servants on property or in a castle, etc. continued until at least the Enlightenment.

What most westerners thoughts regarding slavery and indentured servitude is irrelevant. I am talking about slavery and have been asking you questions specifically on the morality of slavery. And right from the start, I provided my definition of what slavery means, 'a human being owning another human being as property'

Apparently your other opponents, when talking about "slavery," their definition is synonymous to mine. That's why our responses were pretty much the same every time that you used "indentured servitude" in place of "slavery" all while failing to address and/or dodging our points that we bring up.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What most westerners thoughts regarding slavery and indentured servitude is irrelevant. I am talking about slavery and have been asking you questions specifically on the morality of slavery. And right from the start, I provided my definition of what slavery means, 'a human being owning another human being as property'

Apparently your other opponents, when talking about "slavery," their definition is synonymous to mine. That's why our responses were pretty much the same every time that you used "indentured servitude" in place of "slavery" all while failing to address and/or dodging our points that we bring up.

Is he still on the indentured servitude kick? He knows that is wrong. There were two standards for slavery in the Old Testament just as there were two standards of slavery in Early America. We had indentured servitude for white people There were far more restrictions on that than there was for chattel slavery which was used almost exclusively for people from Africa. The Old Testament is almost identical. The standards for how one treated one's fellow Hebrew was quite different than it was for non-Hebrews. The slavery of non-Hebrews was chattel slavery, they were slaves for life. They were passed on down to the next generation. And not only that but the sons and daughters of slaves were possessions of the owner as well. There really was very little difference in chattel slavery between the Hebrews and the Old South. But of course the Bible went one step further. Not being satisfied with the fact that some fellow Hebrews would be eventually free there was a way to trick your fellow Hebrew into being a slave for life.


I am sure that even @BilliardsBall will admit that any decent human being is going to love his wife and children and would do anything to be with them. The slave owners in the Bible knew this too. So If you have a particularly productive slave, give him another slave as his wife. And lets say he has children with that wife. But unlike good old master's other slaves, this slave was a Hebrew with a limited time contract. It eventually is over and he is free to go. Hooray!!! There is only one problem for him. Though he is free to go "his" wife is not his after all. She is his old master's property. Oh , and the kids? Yeah, those too. Those are the master's property. So now he can leave behind his wife and kids, not having any say about their treatment or how they are brought up. Or he has one other option. He could declare that he loves his master (when of course he really loves his wife) get an ear piercing, and not a salon piercing, and be his slave for the rest of his life.

Religion even makes slavery worse.

TLDR: Two types of slavery in the Bible. Indentured slavery and chattel slavery. One could trick a person into chattel slavery. The Bible makes things worse.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It was about morality and slavery is within the boundaries of morality. So my questions is as follows.

Is slavery immoral? Based on your answer whether or not it's immoral, is it absolute?

Slavery is sometimes moral. The Bible contains absolute morality, so for example, Gentiles may be Israelite slaves, Jews may not. Again, sometimes it is moral in the Bible. Or if you like it is absolutely moral to have a Gentile slave (based on certain conditions) and etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What most westerners thoughts regarding slavery and indentured servitude is irrelevant. I am talking about slavery and have been asking you questions specifically on the morality of slavery. And right from the start, I provided my definition of what slavery means, 'a human being owning another human being as property'

Apparently your other opponents, when talking about "slavery," their definition is synonymous to mine. That's why our responses were pretty much the same every time that you used "indentured servitude" in place of "slavery" all while failing to address and/or dodging our points that we bring up.

Sure, but the word property in the OT is not giving the full sense of the reciprocal relationship as economic and even spiritual (a slave's descendants could worship at the Temple as Jews).

But if you like--and this is bothering you in a particular way--a Gentile could be a slave, but a Jew could not. We know one reason whites owned black slaves in America--the Bible said Ham's child was cursed, but the cursed one was CANAAN as in CANAANITES, not "African Hamites". The picture begins to clear. God is making a distinction between chosen and non-chosen.

Or to cut through all the mustard at once, you will be truly free in Heaven or truly God's property (not free) in Hell, per the Bible. At this point, some secular people rant against God and say, "I'll burn in Hell before I yield to become God's property (God's slave)!"

If Hell can be a moral choice for God--or even more dramatically based on my sin--Heaven--why is slavery a big deal--if such slavery provided creature comforts, economic exchange, etc. Ask yourself why the Canaanites (Israelite slaves, some of them) were cursed, and you might get closer to Jesus--the truth embodied in a person.

 

[We Never Know]

There are ways. Think about it. There were quite a few shepherds back in the day.

If no one saw it then it couldn't be know unless one or both participants told that secret to someone, then they in turn told someone etc.
But then again there is always plain ole gossip lol

 

[Subduction Zone]

If no one saw it then it couldn't be know unless one or both participants told that secret to someone, then they in turn told someone etc.
But then again there is always plain ole gossip lol

The hint was there. A lot of shepherds spent a good time away from home. If you have been gone 6 months and you come back and your wife is 3 months pregnant it does not take a genius to figure that something is amiss. And even then not everyone was into regular old sex. Some of them might have liked Greek or even Russian.

 

[night912]

Slavery is sometimes moral. The Bible contains absolute morality, so for example, Gentiles may be Israelite slaves, Jews may not. Again, sometimes it is moral in the Bible. Or if you like it is absolutely moral to have a Gentile slave (based on certain conditions) and etc.

I'm a Jew who trusted Jesus for salvation,

After pointing it out and explained why it's a contradiction, you continue to state the same contradiction over and over again.
Since all the other times you resorted to use an irrelevant excuse, I was not able to come to understand your reason for doing it until now. After you finally admitted that indentured servitude is irrelevant you can no longer use that as an excuse, resulting in you being honest and give the real reason as to why you think slavery is not immoral. You're a racist. Your statement above is all the evidence needed as justification for concluding that you're racist. You believe that slavery is morally right when it is being done to those who are not the same "kind" of people as you.

As of now, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion with you, since your reason as to why slavery is not immoral is because of your racism. Perhaps, later on in the future after having discussions over racism with you and observing whether or not you have changed your racist views, we might be able to continue.

 

[Subduction Zone]

After pointing it out and explained why it's a contradiction, you continue to state the same contradiction over and over again.
Since all the other times you resorted to use an irrelevant excuse, I was not able to come to understand your reason for doing it until now. After you finally admitted that indentured servitude is irrelevant you can no longer use that as an excuse, resulting in you being honest and give the real reason as to why you think slavery is not immoral. You're a racist. Your statement above is all the evidence needed as justification for concluding that you're racist. You believe that slavery is morally right when it is being done to those who are not the same "kind" of people as you.

As of now, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion with you, since your reason as to why slavery is not immoral is because of your racism. Perhaps, later on in the future after having discussions over racism with you and observing whether or not you have changed your racist views, we might be able to continue.

And that is the problem with the Bible and slavery. There is no real difference between the chattel slavery of the Bible and the chattel slavery of the Old South. Both are incredibly immoral. And a God that can bother to tell you not to have a Big Mac or wear polyester could not take the least little bit of effort to say "Slavery is wrong". Instead all he said was "Slavery of your fellow Hebrew is wrong". Well guess what? In the South slavery of your fellow white man was wrong too. Congratulations to the Bible, you just won a participation award in chattel slavery.

 

[We Never Know]

The hint was there. A lot of shepherds spent a good time away from home. If you have been gone 6 months and you come back and your wife is 3 months pregnant it does not take a genius to figure that something is amiss. And even then not everyone was into regular old sex. Some of them might have liked Greek or even Russian.

"There were a lot of shepherds back then" isn't much of a hint unless you assume they all were gone for many months at a time.
Some weren't gone for months. Same as cattle drives, same as truck drivers. Some are gone a long time while some aren't.
And yes I agree if someone is gone for 6 months and comes home to a wife that is 3 months pregnant, its pretty obvious she cheated.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"There were a lot of shepherds back then" isn't much of a hint unless you assume they all were gone for many months at a time.
Some weren't gone for months. Same as cattle drives, same as truck drivers. Some are gone a long time while some aren't.
And yes I agree if someone is gone for 6 months and comes home to a wife that is 3 months pregnant, its pretty obvious she cheated.

What? That is so obviously wrong. I gave you one example (actually three) of how a husband could know if his wife had cheated on him, even if there were no witnesses. That does not mean that all cases where the husband knew it was because he was a shepherd. You made a "Hasty generalization fallacy".

And do you understand the other two references? Neither practice is conducive to childbirth.

 

[BilliardsBall]

After pointing it out and explained why it's a contradiction, you continue to state the same contradiction over and over again.
Since all the other times you resorted to use an irrelevant excuse, I was not able to come to understand your reason for doing it until now. After you finally admitted that indentured servitude is irrelevant you can no longer use that as an excuse, resulting in you being honest and give the real reason as to why you think slavery is not immoral. You're a racist. Your statement above is all the evidence needed as justification for concluding that you're racist. You believe that slavery is morally right when it is being done to those who are not the same "kind" of people as you.

As of now, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion with you, since your reason as to why slavery is not immoral is because of your racism. Perhaps, later on in the future after having discussions over racism with you and observing whether or not you have changed your racist views, we might be able to continue.

Huh? I don't own slaves. My ancestors were both slaves in Egypt (and some of them, a very few if you read the Bible and history) owned some slaves. Jews aren't superior to Gentiles. That's racism. The chosen receive benefits others do not. That's sovereignty.

Am I a "racist" because I believe some go to Heaven and others Hell? That's a silly viewpoint.