Christianity vs Baha'i

[Skywalker]

But it does not say that Jesus will usher it in.

2 Timothy 2 12 says that we will reign with Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe in a new heaven and a new earth, and I believe in a physical ressurection. That is because God designs everything with an order and a purpose. Heaven is an intermediate stage. Humans were created to live on the earth. Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the earth.

I believe in a new earth, and Baha'is call that the new world order, referred to in the Bible as the Kingdom of God on earth

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

I do not believe that humans were created to live on earth forever. That is ludicrous as well as impossible because no new people could be born if people lived forever on earth.

The meek shall inherit the earth refers to living people, generation after generation. When we die our soul passes to the spiritual realm, or heaven, and remains there for all of eternity.

God made the natural laws, and Decomposition is one of the natural laws. Bodies die and decompose and the soul (spirit) then passes from this world into another world. The man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought is what constitutes man.

The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. I also believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal, not alive in a physical body.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Trailblazer]

2 Timothy 2 12 says that we will reign with Him.

But Jesus reigns in heaven, not on earth, so you will be with Jesus when you die and go to heaven.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 56

 

[Redemptionsong]

Because I have a new scripture that I believe supersedes the Bible, so I believe that there is one mediator for every age and Baha'u'llah is the mediator for this age.

I believe that Jesus was the mediator for a former age. That belief is based upon my belief in Dispensations, and that each successive Dispensation abrogates all the Dispensations that preceded it..

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

I do not believe that the gospel of Jesus has been abrogated because the Word of God can never be abrogated. It is only the Dispensation of Jesus that has been abrogated.... That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to the gospel of Jesus.

It really is quite simple. Every time God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation), His Revelation supersedes all the Revelations that have come before it. A Dispensation is the divine ordering of the affairs of the world, and that can be only according to one Manifestation at a time. Once a Manifestation of God has completed His Mission on earth and revealed scriptures, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Manifestation of God appears; and then He completes His Mission and His scriptures are pertinent until the next Manifestation of God appears.

Once the Mission is completed, it is completed, as Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Once the Mission of Jesus was completed and Christianity fulfilled its purpose for humanity, there was no reason for Jesus to remain in this world or to return to this world. God always sends another Messenger, and religion is renewed in order to suit the circumstances of the age in which He appears. The new Messenger always brings a new remedy that is needed for the age in which He appears.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Also, it is patently absurd that Jesus would be the one and only mediator for all time and God would be all-loving and just, because such a God would not leave 71% of the human population out in the cold. Thus the entire belief system based upon Jesus is the Only Way is offensive to me.

Well, you prove the truth of scripture by making Jesus an offence and stumbling block! As he says, the way is narrow.

The big difficulty with your dispensations, is that they don't make sense. You describe the dispensation of Jesus Christ as being the Gospels, but as John the Baptist says, l indeed baptized you with water, but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

This baptism by Jesus Christ does not take place until Pentecost, and is the beginning of the reign of Christ in heaven. In other words, the New Testament does not begin until the testator is dead. Yet, your dispensations appear to miss this point completely.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No, that Jesus is the only exception is not according to the Bible or Jesus, it is according to Christianity.

If you look up the use of the word 'mediator' in a concordance, you'll see that Jesus Christ mediates not just between God and men, but also between the old and new covenants. This makes him a very unique mediator.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, you prove the truth of scripture by making Jesus an offence and stumbling block! As he says, the way is narrow.

The big difficulty with your dispensations, is that they don't make sense. You describe the dispensation of Jesus Christ as being the Gospels, but as John the Baptist says, l indeed baptized you with water, but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

This baptism by Jesus Christ does not take place until Pentecost, and is the beginning of the reign of Christ in heaven. In other words, the New Testament does not begin until the testator is dead. Yet, your dispensations appear to miss this point completely.

I have no idea what you are talking about but by definition a dispensation according to the Bible is as follows:

What is the biblical meaning of dispensation?

an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God. a divinely appointed order or age: the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Dispensation | Definition of Dispensation at Dictionary.com

According to my beliefs only one Dispensation can be in place at a time. The Dispensation of Jesus Christ ended when God sent Muhammad, and the Dispensation of Muhammad ended when God sent the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100

 

[Trailblazer]

If you look up the use of the word 'mediator' in a concordance, you'll see that Jesus Christ mediates not just between God and men, but also between the old and new covenants. This makes him a very unique mediator.

All mediators are unique for their own reasons.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you look up the use of the word 'mediator' in a concordance, you'll see that Jesus Christ mediates not just between God and men, but also between the old and new covenants. This makes him a very unique mediator.

I see the issue is many people use Christ like a Surname now.

Jesus of Nazareth was the Name.

The station of Christ, Annointed One, became apparent after the Dove Descended at the meeting with John the Baptist and is recorded in the Bible in Matthew 3:16 it offers

"When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him."

That is what makes Jesus the Christ, the God given Holy Spirit that Jesus was Annointed With.

From a Baha'i point of veiw, Jesus was born of that Holy Spirit, thus the teaching of a virgin birth, so the baptism is when people started to see who Jesus was.

Jesus of Nazareth was Christ who came down from heaven and went back up to heaven in the same way, as the Holy Spirit and has returned as promised as the Holy Spirit, Christ 'Annointed' in a new human frame with a New Name.

Regards Tony

 

[PearlSeeker]

No, the whole of the Gospel is not based upon the resurrection, and a belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus is not necessary to be a Christian.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.

In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3

http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

Nice quote from the retired bishop.

OK. But appearance to Paul was a real event. Some kind of resurrection (maybe in spirit body as you said) must happened if Paul met a living Jesus after he was crucified.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nice quote from the retired bishop.

OK. But appearance to Paul was a real event. Some kind of resurrection (maybe in spirit body as you said) must happened if Paul met a living Jesus after he was crucified.

I have no doubt people of strong Faith and strong spirit can see things beyond this world. I have not had those type of connections, but did have a wonderful experience.

I had a meeting with Abdul'baha in one of my dreams, on the top of the steps of a building I had not yet seen. In the dream he walked through the door to the right and I walked to the left and was sad that I was not then able to talk with him.

Two years later I went on pilgrimage to the Holy land and when I got to see the house of Abdu'lbaha for the first time, there were the steps and doors I had seen in my dream.

On the right was where the room of Abdu'lbaha was and on the left was the room where all the pilgrims were first greeted by Abdul'baha.

Can you imagine, Abdu'lbaha had shown me already that I would meet him in that house, it had only just been reopened after quite a few years of renovations.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Nice quote from the retired bishop.

OK. But appearance to Paul was a real event. Some kind of resurrection (maybe in spirit body as you said) must happened if Paul met a living Jesus after he was crucified.

It is entirely possible that the spirit body of Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

According to my understanding, the reason not all the Writings have been translated is due to lack of funds necessary to translate them carefully and correctly, and this will be done by panels of translators, not just one person.

I do not think that there are any official translations other than what is located in the Baha'i Reference Library online, but there are some provisional translations of Tablets, and some of those are posted on the internet.

Here is something on translations: Translation - Bahai9

I am not that adept on these matters so I do not want to give you incorrect information. @ adrian009, @ Tony Bristow-Stagg , and @ loverofhumanity would probably know more than I do.

I am not sure, but since the Guardian was proficient in English as well s Persian and Arabic, he probably knew what was contained in all the Tablets, so he chose to translate the ones that we needed most. I don't know how the UHJ makes the determination regarding which of the remaining Tablets have priority for translation.

I have not even read everything that was written by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha that has been translated into English so I am in no hurry to see the rest. Is there something in particular you are interested in reading about?

From the link you provided:

Guidelines for the Translation of Bahá'í Sacred Writings

"Translations into languages other than those akin to Persian and Arabic should normally be made from approved English translations rather than from the original Persian and Arabic. In such cases it is an advantage if it is also possible for the translator(s) to check with the original".

Translation - Bahai9


So the plan is to translate the sacred writings into English that can then be used to translate into other languages.

Then why after such a long time is only a very small fraction (You say 15%) been translated?

According to my understanding, the reason not all the Writings have been translated is due to lack of funds necessary to translate them carefully and correctly, and this will be done by panels of translators, not just one person.

Surely lack of funds is not the issue.

"The payment of Ḥuqúqu'lláh is based on the calculation of the value of the individual's possessions, which includes one's merchandise, property and income, after all necessary expenses have been paid. If a person has possessions or wealth in excess of what is necessary equal in value to at least nineteen mithqáls of gold[1][6][7] (2.2246 ounces or 69 grams[7]) it is a spiritual obligation to pay nineteen percent of the total amount,[1] once only, as Ḥuqúqu'lláh. Thereafter, whenever an individual acquires more possessions or wealth from income by the amount of at least nineteen mithqáls of gold, one is to pay nineteen percent of this increase, and so on for each further increase".
Huqúqu'lláh - Wikipedia


When a Bahai dies:

"The inheritance should not be divided until after the payment of the Ḥuqúqu’lláh (The Right of God), of any debts contracted by the deceased and of any expenses incurred for a befitting funeral and burial".
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)


So Ḥuqúqu’lláh is The Right of God as written by Baha'u'llah in the most holy book, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas.

Baha'u'llah requires 19% of Bahais wealth (minus expenses/Profit).


Do you not think it is strange that more translating of the 15,000 tablets hasn't been done yet?
I dont think lack of cash is the problem. Ive seen pictures of the Universal House of Justice. So why cant they afford to hire a few translators to spread the word of their prophet?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Surely lack of funds is not the issue

Only Baha'i can contribute to the funds and Huququllah is not yet an obligation. As the law is not yet implemented in the West.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So the plan is to translate the sacred writings into English that can then be used to translate into other languages.

Then why after such a long time is only a very small fraction (You say 15%) been translated?

Surely lack of funds is not the issue.

That is the only issue I am aware of. Maybe some of the other Baha'is on this forum know of other issues.

Do you not think it is strange that more translating of the 15,000 tablets hasn't been done yet?
I dont think lack of cash is the problem. Ive seen pictures of the Universal House of Justice. So why cant they afford to hire a few translators to spread the word of their prophet?

No, I do not think it is strange. There is an ample number of Baha'i Writings that have been translated and there is plenty of time to translate the remainder. It is much more important to teach the Faith and that does not require that we have more Writings than we do now.

 

[Kenny]

I just posted to Skywalker what I believe to be the meaning of the verses on 1 Cor 15.
#165 Trailblazer, 20 minutes ago

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222

And yet the tomb was empty and his sheets folded.

Like I said, all we can do at this time is just agree to disagree in as much as no matter how you interpret it through Bahai, it won't match up in what we read in scripture.

 

[shunyadragon]

It says not to judge others but here we are only judging religious teachings. Certainly, we should judge what is correct to believe about God, shouldn't we?

In respect to has the best theology it would be highly subjective based on the circular reasoning of the different religions from the perspective of the fallible human believers. This also obviously true when you ask people to say which is the best they will pick their own, but it is a question on how harsh they will judge other beliefs.

I will argue against the theologies of ancient religions like: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, because they are tribal closed ancient theologies that reflect an ancient culture that basically reject all other alternatives.

The Baha'i Faith is an alternative to a more open theology, but not the only possible alternative. At this point I am a bit pragmatic about 'choices' in alternatives. My rule over time is the higher degree of absoluteness and certainty the more llkely they are flawed.

 

[metis]

Is that really the "Eastern gate"? Just when I thought I knew everything!

Yes, because looking east from the Old City goes in the direction of the West Bank. I visited it when there, which was a bit risky because that area of Jerusalem is in the Muslim Quarter. Our Israeli tour bus dropped us off before we got there as they wouldn't go because of the risk, and a friend of mine and I walked to where the East Gate was.

BTW, eight years later when I again was in the Muslim Quarter as I was waiting for wife and a couple of other women who wanted to shop, at one point I was by myself. A Palestinian man sitting close to me asked me if I was afraid to be there alone, and I answered "No, I'm too stupid to be afraid". He started laughing, and we just talked for a while until the women finally arrived.

BTW, my favorite restaurant in Jerusalem was in the Muslim Quarter, and I love M.E. food! Matter of fact, I got some babaganoush in my fridge that I'm going to assault shortly with my pita.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Which has the better beliefs about God?

While I am familiar with Christian belief, please feel free to say while you feel Christianity is the correct belief to have.

The little I know about the Baha'i religion comes mostly from these forums.

However, I think I'm correct in thinking that according to Baha'i all should become Baha'i because it has the better understanding/knowledge of God.

If you think this is true, why? What is better about your understanding? Why should Christians convert to Baha'i? Or do you see Christianity, the beliefs, the knowledge of God being equal to Baha'i? So there is nothing to be gained by a Christain converting to Baha'i?

It is in my opinion absurd to ask in such a general way whose beliefs about God are better. First it is a private matter. What I think Baha'is believe is not what they say they believe. If I believed what they said I'd likely be one of them, wouldn't I? Not believing them I am not one, unless I join under a false premise.

Secondly you aren't that familiar with Christianity. Catholics are excluded from your ideas about Christianity. So are non-trinitarians (hundred million at least). So are Christians in general except those in your experience. Beliefs about God varies among Bahai's too. What they think today may change tomorrow.

Third internal beliefs are a private matter among many religious people. What they say may be one thing and what they think another. I think this is common. How then can the beliefs of groups be compared?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I see the issue is many people use Christ like a Surname now.

Jesus of Nazareth was the Name.

The station of Christ, Annointed One, became apparent after the Dove Descended at the meeting with John the Baptist and is recorded in the Bible in Matthew 3:16 it offers

"When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him."

That is what makes Jesus the Christ, the God given Holy Spirit that Jesus was Annointed With.

From a Baha'i point of veiw, Jesus was born of that Holy Spirit, thus the teaching of a virgin birth, so the baptism is when people started to see who Jesus was.

Jesus of Nazareth was Christ who came down from heaven and went back up to heaven in the same way, as the Holy Spirit and has returned as promised as the Holy Spirit, Christ 'Annointed' in a new human frame with a New Name.

Regards Tony

Jesus did not become Christ until his baptism.

Here is the scriptural evidence: Acts 10:38. 'How God [Gk. Theos] anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.'

If Jesus was the 'anointed One' from birth, then why would he need anointing a second time?

IMO, Jesus became the one mediator only after his anointing by the Holy Spirit. Before the anointing he was Jesus of Nazareth, living under the law.

A mediator between the old and new covenants must live under both the law and grace.

The virgin conception was a miracle of God that led to the fertilisation of Mary's ovum. The Holy Spirit brought about this conception, but nowhere in the scriptures does it say that Jesus was walking by the Holy Spirit until after his baptism.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What is the biblical meaning of dispensation?

an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God. a divinely appointed order or age: the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

This definition of 'dispensation' is fine, but it must be read carefully. It says, 'the new Gospel', or Christian dispensation. The problem is that this inclines one to think that the four Gospels represent the Christian dispensation, when, in fact, they do not.

The Gospels tell us of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ. His life is the mediation between the old and new covenants. The new covenant does not come into force until after he has ascended to heaven. So the Christian dispensation does not begin until Christ has ascended to his throne in heaven.

The dispensations that you attribute to the Bahai messengers are, according to the Bible, still within the Christian dispensation, a dispensation the continues until the return of Christ.