Ive talked to unbelievers who say that they think evil doesnt exist. I told another believer i know and he said look around you. He also said that without the Bible, you know that evil exists, because if there is good, there is evil.
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Christianity vs Baha'i
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
Ive talked to unbelievers who say that they think evil doesnt exist. I told another believer i know and he said look around you. He also said that without the Bible, you know that evil exists, because if there is good, there is evil.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This:
"Say: I, verily, have not sought to extol Mine Own Self, but rather God Himself were ye to judge fairly. Naught can be seen in Me except God and His Cause, could ye but perceive it. I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned…" Bahaullah
Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 27-30
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not say that I do not have a problem with the religion. I have lots of problems with the religion.
I said:"I have no problem with you believing that Jesus rose from the dead, I just do not believe it, nor do I see what it is a necessary belief given it has nothing to do with why Jesus came into the world."
I already know what Christians believe what they do although I highly doubt that Christians know what Baha'is believe what we do, nor do they care. All they care about is what they believe with very few exceptions. You could say the same thing about Baha'is, but huge big fat difference is that at least Baha'is know WHAT Christians believe and WHY they believe what they do.
Give me a break. Even if Jesus rose from the dead why would it matter? How does that help anyone? What does it mean? Christians believe it means they will also rise from their graves when Jesus returns, which I consider an utterly absurd belief because nobody rises from their graves and has their flesh reconstituted. I believe that the whole thing is a sham, based upon an incorrect interpretation of the Bible, but there is nothing I am going to say that would make any difference, because when people believe they believe.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
For the Baha'is to be right. The gospel writers told the story about Jesus. They get to the part where he is killed and buried, then, suddenly, all four writers start writing a fictional, symbolic, story of a resurrection? They write it as if it is really true. They say people saw him, spoke with him, ate with him and even touched him. They say there were several witnesses to those events. Witnesses to what event? A symbolic, spiritual resurrection? That God "inspired" all four writers to tell of a symbolic resurrection story? But told each to write it slightly differently? To have an empty tomb but have different people show up at the tomb? But then again, if the born-again Christians are right, most all of us, including the Baha'is are going to be sent to hell. I guess the Baha'i interpretation isn't all that bad compared to that. But is it true?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I might want to read it out of curiosity but not because I am worried that Baha'u'llah was not the Messiah.
If I had all the time in the world I would enjoy interpreting Bible prophecies, I don't need Sears doing it for me.
But if I took the time to do that would it make any difference to anyone? No, and that is why I don't bother.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not hold that Baha'u'llah is G-d with reference to the above quotes colored in magenta
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That's exactly what I'd rather hear Baha'is say, but they don't. Baha'is have to say all sorts of nice things about the God of the Bible and the Bible being so awesome and Jesus being so great. But... The God of the Bible sounds like a mean, wrathful spirit-being that demands obedience or he'll kill you. The Bible, to me, sounds like a bunch of myths and legends of an ancient warrior people. And Jesus, he's the greatest. If he did all the things that the gospels say he did, but Baha'is say he didn't. They say those things didn't really happen, except the "virgin" birth. Yes, if it is not true. It is the worst sham and hoax the world has ever known. What I don't like about what Baha'is have to do is walk the tightrope between saying how great God is and how symbolic the stories about him are.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The fictional STORY does say that Jesus rose from the dead but NOWHERE in the NT does Jesus say He is coming back.
NOWHERE.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Well that's interesting, 'cause Baha'is change the source and problem of evil by not blaming Adam or the devil. They say that we have two natures, a lower, animal nature and a higher spiritual nature. Evil, like darkness, disappears when you shine a light on it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is believe in sin, we just do not believe that sin resulted from Adam and Eve eating the apple.
Baha'is believe evil exists, and it is the absence if good. Thus there are evil people in the world and good people.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I've shown you a couple of them. Something about if I go I will come back and then how it is the Lamb that returns and how at the end of Revelation Jesus says he's coming soon... what he means by soon leaves a lot to be desired. But, you and me don't believe nor trust the NT all that much anyway. It was written by people. People that were the followers of Jesus. How can we trust them? Oh, except in the things they prophecy. And even with that, who knows what they were talking about? Beasts and dragons? In some was Jesus talking about the Romans coming in and destroying Jerusalem or was he talking about right now? Either way, I think the NT implies that Jesus is the Lamb and that he is the one returning.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I sure wish you would stop saying that it was a symbolic spiritual resurrection because that is not a Baha'i belief.
Baha'is believe there was no bodily resurrection and we do not believe that the stories were intended by the authors to be symbolic. Abdu'l-Baha simply gave one interpretation of what the stories might symbolize.
People didnt inherit sin from Eve, because Adam had dominion.
Everyone is a sinner.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Just little things... like the NT, or I think it was Paul, who said sin entered the world because of Adam eating the forbidden fruit. So, again, the NT is not trustworthy for telling us the truth about spiritual things. Baha'is shouldn't be saying anything good about the NT. There is virtually nothing taught in the NT, except the golden rule, that Baha'is even like or say really happened... as described in the NT. Even the crucifixion has embellishments in it that Baha'is say didn't happen. Like the people coming out of their graves. Anyway, I made it to the end. I wish more Baha'is would comment on all this. Why do they leave it all to you with a few comments now and again from Tony?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I already knew about you, therefore, I did not include you name.
Thanks however.
Regards
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You won't catch me saying that those OT or NT stories are true or that the anthropomorphic depiction of God in the OT is accurate. All I will say is that I believe what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote about Moses and Jesus and some of the other prophets and that I believe that the teachings of Jesus (the parables, etc.) are spiritual truth. I believe as it says below that the Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book and I believe what is in the Bible is true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet.
Introduction
Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.
Conclusion
The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.
A Baháí View of the Bible
(Rosebery, Australia: Association for Baha'i Studies Australia, 1996)
In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)
The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....
The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)
The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
(From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is believe that Isaiah 53 is about Baha’u’llah, the return of the Christ Spirit that Jesus promised to send (John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:17).Baha’u’llah was also the Messiah the Jews have been long awaiting.There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.
Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men.
Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.
The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.
Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28
The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Baháthe Centre of his Covenant.
Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.
These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”
Comments from: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Here's what Abdul Baha said...
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Does that describe a literal or symbolic resurrection? And here... For many Christians raised with a literal explanation of the resurrection, a symbolic interpretation may seem hard to accept at first. But these allegorical explanations aren’t new... Origen was convinced that the symbols of early Christian eschatology heaven, hell, resurrection, the Second Coming of Christ were not to be rejected merely because literalistic believers understood them in a crude and prosaic way… (He) criticizes the notion that the resurrection of the body means a literal resuscitation...
One bishop of the Church of England writes of the resurrection:
From the summaries which we have given it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that we are in the domain of religious romance, not of religious history...
A second bishop, Dr. David Jenkins of Durham, concurs. For him, the rational explanation of the empty tomb means the disciples stole the body...
These sophisticated, metaphorical understandings of the resurrection fall clearly within the range of accepted modern Christian thought on the subject. We know now that the resurrection was and is a psychological event. The physical resurrection, as popularly believed, never happened...
And here...One bishop of the Church of England writes of the resurrection:
From the summaries which we have given it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that we are in the domain of religious romance, not of religious history...
A second bishop, Dr. David Jenkins of Durham, concurs. For him, the rational explanation of the empty tomb means the disciples stole the body...
These sophisticated, metaphorical understandings of the resurrection fall clearly within the range of accepted modern Christian thought on the subject. We know now that the resurrection was and is a psychological event. The physical resurrection, as popularly believed, never happened...
The holy books are full of significance and must never be taken literally…. It is essential to have divine perception in order to see the truth, to hear the call, and obey — liberating the hearts from all earthly attachment. – Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 38...
But what does Paul mean when he says Christ “was seen,” or as the New International Version translates “appeared”? Can we understand this literally, when we have seen that Paul often uses physical imagery for spiritual (i.e. nonphysical) events? Could Paul understand the resurrection another, more metaphorical or symbolic way?
With this and much more Biblical evidence in mind, we can easily understand that the resurrection Paul preached was a spiritual resurrection.
Then Trailblazer, tell me what do Baha'is believe about the resurrection if not a symbolic, spiritual, metaphorical, not literal resurrection?But what does Paul mean when he says Christ “was seen,” or as the New International Version translates “appeared”? Can we understand this literally, when we have seen that Paul often uses physical imagery for spiritual (i.e. nonphysical) events? Could Paul understand the resurrection another, more metaphorical or symbolic way?
With this and much more Biblical evidence in mind, we can easily understand that the resurrection Paul preached was a spiritual resurrection.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
I will come where again? It is utterly absurd to interpret this one verse as Jesus saying He will come to earth again, especially in light of all these other verses that contradict that (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36).
"and receive you unto myself" is obviously about the Spirit of Jesus, not His physical body, and please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and DO anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as Christians believe.
Jesus did not say my body will come again. The spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah and that was what Jesus meant..
"and receive you unto myself" is obviously about the Spirit of Jesus, not His physical body, because there would be no way that the disciples Jesus was speaking to could receive the body of Jesus on earth since they were no longer living on earth. Where Jesus was was in heaven and that is where the disciples also are, so that is where Jesus received them.
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Jesus was the Lamb but Baha'ullah was also the Lamb, since He was the Return of the Christ, so whenever the Lamb is mentioned in reference to a return of Christ it refers to Baha'u'llah.
Baha’u’llah means Glory of God in Arabic and the following verses refer to Him.
Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.