Christianity vs Baha'i

[Skywalker]

Just little things... like the NT, or I think it was Paul, who said sin entered the world because of Adam eating the forbidden fruit. So, again, the NT is not trustworthy for telling us the truth about spiritual things. Baha'is shouldn't be saying anything good about the NT. There is virtually nothing taught in the NT, except the golden rule, that Baha'is even like or say really happened... as described in the NT. Even the crucifixion has embellishments in it that Baha'is say didn't happen. Like the people coming out of their graves. Anyway, I made it to the end. I wish more Baha'is would comment on all this. Why do they leave it all to you with a few comments now and again from Tony?

Regarding Paul being trustworthy when talking about spiritual things, Paul didnt give the details about his past mistakes. He focused on God. The Historical Case for Paul’s Apostleship: And a Critique of Muslim Arguments

 

[Trailblazer]

People didnt inherit sin from Eve, because Adam had dominion.

Everyone is a sinner.

Baha'is do not believe that sin was inherited from Adam or Eve, not because they ate an apple from a tree but since we did inherit our physical nature from Adam in that sense sin was inherited from Adam.

Baha'is believe that everyone is a sinner in the sense that we all have a physical nature that has the propensity to sin.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from 119 Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.

This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?

But Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.

The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.

The position of Christ was that of absolute perfection; He made His divine perfections shine like the sun upon all believing souls, and the bounties of the light shone and radiated in the reality of men. This is why He says: “I am the bread which descended from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die” 2 —that is to say, that whosoever shall partake of this divine food will attain unto eternal life: that is, every one who partakes of this bounty and receives these perfections will find eternal life, will obtain preexistent favors, will be freed from the darkness of error, and will be illuminated by the light of His guidance.

The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections, because of this sacrifice, became evident and apparent—the tree, the branches, the leaves and the blossoms being concealed in the seed. When the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections appeared in the perfect form of leaves, blossoms and fruits.

Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-121

 

[Skywalker]

I sure wish you would stop saying that it was a symbolic spiritual resurrection because that is not a Baha'i belief.

Baha'is believe there was no bodily resurrection and we do not believe that the stories were intended by the authors to be symbolic. Abdu'l-Baha simply gave one interpretation of what the stories might symbolize.

Why do you believe that there is no bodily resurrection? Bahai people believe in the Bible, and the Bible mentions a bodily resurrection. Is the resurrection physical or spiritual? - creation.com

Is the resurrection physical or spiritual?
Published: 1 December 2018 (GMT+10)
If our loving Creator God meant for humans to live on earth forever without death ever happening does this not mean that, because of the geographical size of our planet, very few people would ever actually experience the gift of life? Does not the Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ reveal another, non-physical, dimension to which we move when physical death occurs thus allowing others to experience life on earth after us? I am reminded of the Jesuit priest, Teilhard de Chardin, who said “we are not human beings on a spiritual journey but spiritual beings on a human journey.”
Lita Cosner, CMI-US, responds:

Genesis 3, He revealed the plan for the “Seed of the Woman” to defeat the Serpent. The rest of the Old Testament tells us about God’s preparation of a people through whom the Messiah would come into the world.

When Jesus was raised from the dead, His body was transformed into a resurrection body that could never die again. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul tells us that we can look forward to the exact same type of resurrection. In other words, Jesus experienced a human resurrection. This is a physical body, that differs from our fallen mortal bodies in that it will never age, suffer disease, or die.

2 Corinthians 5:4).

When Christ comes back, the earth will be restored to the original ‘very good’ state that God always intended. Furthermore, the dead will be raised and will experience the final judgment. Those who have trusted in Christ will live forever on the restored earth, with perfect resurrection bodies that will never experience sickness, suffering, or death. We will be in perfect fellowship with our God.

There are 7.7 billion people alive on earth today, and the earth could still support more people. Technology and advanced farming techniques are making food production more and more efficient. So limiting the future population of the New Heavens and Earth to the amount of people who could be supported by the planet would still mean a possible population much larger than the population of today’s earth—indefinitely larger, because we have no idea (for example) how food will be produced, or how much more efficient it could be, even before adding in the possibility of processes we would currently consider miraculous.

Revelation is clear that the population of the New Heavens and Earth will be a vast multitude. And that doesn’t require God to ‘give up’ on the earth He created to be our home.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just little things... like the NT, or I think it was Paul, who said sin entered the world because of Adam eating the forbidden fruit. So, again, the NT is not trustworthy for telling us the truth about spiritual things.

No it isn't especially now that we have an update. I just explained to Skywalker how sin came into the world through Adam:
#242 Trailblazer, 1 minute ago

Baha'is shouldn't be saying anything good about the NT. There is virtually nothing taught in the NT, except the golden rule, that Baha'is even like or say really happened... as described in the NT. Even the crucifixion has embellishments in it that Baha'is say didn't happen. Like the people coming out of their graves.

And you ask me why I do not take the time to read the whole thing?

Anyway, I made it to the end. I wish more Baha'is would comment on all this. Why do they leave it all to you with a few comments now and again from Tony?

I wish they would too. I am totally overloaded, because I make a point to answer every post and I cannot even keep track of them all and that is just this thread... I have other threads I have not even gotten to yet.

 

[Skywalker]

Baha'is do not believe that sin was inherited from Adam or Eve, not because they ate an apple from a tree but since we did inherit our physical nature from Adam in that sense sin was inherited from Adam.

Baha'is believe that everyone is a sinner in the sense that we all have a physical nature that has the propensity to sin.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from 119 Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.

This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?

But Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.

The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.

The position of Christ was that of absolute perfection; He made His divine perfections shine like the sun upon all believing souls, and the bounties of the light shone and radiated in the reality of men. This is why He says: “I am the bread which descended from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die” 2 —that is to say, that whosoever shall partake of this divine food will attain unto eternal life: that is, every one who partakes of this bounty and receives these perfections will find eternal life, will obtain preexistent favors, will be freed from the darkness of error, and will be illuminated by the light of His guidance.

The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections, because of this sacrifice, became evident and apparent—the tree, the branches, the leaves and the blossoms being concealed in the seed. When the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections appeared in the perfect form of leaves, blossoms and fruits.

Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-121

Didn't we inherit their nature because of the apple? They were created sinless but chose to sin. Was There Death Before Adam Sinned?

Did Death of Any Kind Exist Before the Fall?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then Trailblazer, tell me what do Baha'is believe about the resurrection if not a symbolic, spiritual, metaphorical, not literal resurrection?

We do believe that it was a literal resurrection. We do not believe that Jesus loterally rose from the dead.

What I was trying to say is that does not mean it was symbolic of anything. Unless the authors intended the stories to be symbolic then they were not intended to be interpreted that way. It does not matter what Abdu'l-Baha sad, that is just one possible way of making sense out of the resurrection stories, attributing some meaning to them Abdu'l-Baha did not know what the NT authors intended to convey. Nobody knows and we will never know.

 

[Skywalker]

Baha'is believe that Isaiah 53 is about Baha’u’llah, the return of the Christ Spirit that Jesus promised to send (John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:17).Baha’u’llah was also the Messiah the Jews have been long awaiting.There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.

Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men.

Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.

The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28

The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Baháthe Centre of his Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.

These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”

Comments from: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159

Jesus was arrested by the Romans, buried with thieves, and resurrected. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin by dying for the iniquity of the world. Did Isaiah Know About Jesus Christ Before He Came to Earth?

Did Isaiah Know About Jesus Christ Centuries Before He Came to Earth?
Biblical Authority Devotional: Consistency of Scripture's Message, Part 7
The Old Testament reveals numerous details about the coming Messiah.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)
Today’s big question: Did Isaiah know about Jesus Christ centuries before He came to earth?

If you read Isaiah, you cannot miss the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, many people have called Isaiah the “fifth gospel” because of how much it mentions the coming Messiah, and how much detail is given regarding the good news of salvation. Besides the Psalms, Isaiah is the most-quoted book in the New Testament, particularly concerning Jesus.

The prophets were given amazing revelation from God, and it is hard to know what they must have been thinking when communicating this revelation to the people. Sometimes they warned of judgment for disobedience, and other times proclaimed news of the coming Messiah. Some were given special and amazing visions that they were able to describe in great detail the future kingdom fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Isaiah was given an incredible glimpse of the throne room of heaven where he saw the pre-incarnate Christ. This is confirmed in John 12:41 where John reveals that the prophet Isaiah actually saw Jesus Christ when he had a vision of the Lord on the throne in heaven—hundreds of years before Jesus was born.

Isaiah was a man who witnessed our Lord (the pre-incarnate Son) sitting on His throne in all His glory. He immediately recognized his own sinfulness in the light of God’s glory, and knew he deserved to die (Isaiah 6:5). In Isaiah 53, the prophet writes again of the coming Messiah (and is quoted again in John 12:38) and he gives great detail about Christ’s sacrificial work of atonement.

Here again with the prophet Isaiah (and echoed by the other prophets) we get the consistent message concerning the coming Savior. Isaiah gives us a very detailed account of sin, sacrifice, and the Savior. Humanity is lost in sin, having turned to our own way and rejected God in a great act of rebellion, but in the great once-for-all sacrifice, our Savior took on the iniquity of us all.

This is the great message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is unknown if Isaiah truly understood that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 was the same Person he witnessed on the throne in Isaiah 6. What we do know is that God’s revelation to us through the prophets has made perfect sense in the life and works of Jesus Christ, and these events foretold for hundreds of years have been both consistent and accurate in message.

 

[Skywalker]

We do believe that it was a literal resurrection. We do not believe that Jesus loterally rose from the dead.

What I was trying to say is that does not mean it was symbolic of anything. Unless the authors intended the stories to be symbolic then they were not intended to be interpreted that way. It does not matter what Abdu'l-Baha sad, that is just one possible way of making sense out of the resurrection stories, attributing some meaning to them Abdu'l-Baha did not know what the NT authors intended to convey. Nobody knows and we will never know.

The ressurection of Jesus is supported by probability. Did Jesus and Jesus alone match the identity of the Messiah by Lee Strobel?

In the Jewish Scriptures, which Christians call the Old Testament, there are several dozen major prophecies about the coming of the Messiah, who would be sent by God to redeem his people. In effect, these predictions formed a figurative fingerprint that only the Anointed One would be able to match. This way, the Israelites could rule out any impostor and validate the credentials of the authentic Messiah.

The Greek word for “Messiah” is Christ. But was Jesus really the Christ? Did he miraculously fulfill these predictions that were written hundreds of years before he was born? And how do we know he was the only individual throughout history who fit the prophetic fingerprint?

There are plenty of scholars with long strings of initials after their names whom I could have asked about this topic. However, I wanted to interview someone for whom this was more than just an abstract academic exercise, and that took me to a very unlikely setting in southern California.

THE NINTH INTERVIEW: LOUIS S. LAPIDES, M.DIV., TH.M.

Usually a church would be a natural location in which to question someone about a biblical issue. But there was something different about sitting down with Pastor Louis Lapides in the sanctuary of his congregation on the morning after Sunday worship services. This setting of pews and stained glass was not where you would expect to find a nice Jewish boy from Newark, New Jersey.

Yet that’s Lapides’ background. For someone with his heritage, the question of whether Jesus is the long-anticipated Messiah goes beyond theory. It’s intensely personal, and I had sought out Lapides so I could hear the story of his own investigation of this critical issue.

Lapides earned a bachelor’s degree in theology from Dallas Baptist University as well as a master of divinity and a master of theology degree in Old Testament and Semitics from Talbot Theological Seminary. He served for a decade with Chosen People Ministries, talking about Jesus to Jewish college students. He has taught in the Bible department of Biola University and worked for seven years as an instructor for Walk Through the Bible seminars. He is also the former president of a national network of fifteen messianic congregations.

Slender and bespectacled, Lapides is soft-spoken but has a quick smile and ready laugh. He was upbeat and polite as he ushered me to a chair near the front of Beth Ariel Fellowship in Sherman Oaks, California. I didn’t want to begin by debating biblical nuances; instead I started by inviting Lapides to tell me the story of his spiritual journey.

He folded his hands in his lap, looked at the dark wood walls for a moment as he decided where to start, and then began unfolding an extraordinary tale that took us from Newark to Greenwich Village to Vietnam to Los Angeles, from skepticism to faith, from Judaism to Christianity; from Jesus as irrelevant to Jesus as Messiah.

“As you know, I came from a Jewish family,” he began. “I attended a conservative Jewish synagogue for seven years in preparation for bar mitzvah. Although we considered those studies to be very important, our family’s faith didn’t affect our everyday life very much. We didn’t stop work on the Sabbath; we didn’t have a kosher home.”

He smiled. “However, on the High Holy Days we attended the stricter Orthodox synagogue, because somehow my dad felt that’s where you went if you really wanted to get serious with God!”

When I interjected to ask what his parents had taught him about the Messiah, Lapides’ answer was crisp. “It never came up,” he said matter-of-factly.

I was incredulous. In fact, I thought I had misunderstood him. “You’re saying it wasn’t even discussed?” I asked.

“Never,” he reiterated “I don’t even remember it being an issue in Hebrew school.”

This was amazing to me. “How about Jesus?” I asked. “Was he ever talked about? Was his name used?”

“Only derogatorily!” Lapides quipped. “Basically, he was never discussed. My impressions of Jesus came from seeing Catholic churches: there was the cross, the crown of thorns, the pierced side, the blood coming from his head. It didn’t make any sense to me. Why would you worship a man on a cross with nails in his hands and his feet? I never once thought Jesus had any connection to the Jewish people. I just thought he was a god of the Gentiles.”

I suspected that Lapides’ attitudes toward Christians had gone beyond mere confusion over their beliefs. “Did you believe Christians were at the root of anti-Semitism?” I asked.

“Gentiles were looked upon as synonymous with Christians, and we were taught to be cautious because there could be anti-Semitism among the Gentiles,” he said, sounding a bit diplomatic.

I pursued the issue further. “Would you say you developed some negative attitudes toward Christians?”

This time he didn’t mince words. “Yes, actually I did,” he said. “In fact, later when the New Testament was first presented to me, I sincerely thought it was going to basically be a handbook on anti-Semitism: how to hate Jews, how to kill Jews, how to massacre them. I thought the American Nazi Party would have been very comfortable using it as a guidebook.”

I shook my head, saddened at the thought of how many other Jewish children have grown up thinking of Christians as their enemies.

A SPIRITUAL QUEST BEGINS

Lapides said several incidents dimmed his allegiance to Judaism as he was growing up. Curious about the details, I asked him to elaborate, and he immediately turned to what was clearly the most heartrending episode of his life.

“My parents got divorced when I was seventeen,” he said—and surprisingly, even after all these years I could still detect hurt in his voice. “That really put a stake in any religious heart I may have had. I wondered, Where does God come in? Why didn’t they go to a rabbi for counseling? What good is religion if it can’t help people in a practical way? It sure couldn’t keep my parents together. When they split up, part of me split as well.

“On top of that, in Judaism I didn’t feel as if I had a personal relationship with God. I had a lot of beautiful ceremonies and traditions but he was the distant and detached God of Mount Sinai who said, ‘Here are the rules—you live by them, you’ll be 0K; I’ll see you later.’ And there I was, an adolescent with raging hormones, wondering, Does God relate to my struggles? Does he care about me as an individual? Well, not in any way I could see.”

The divorce prompted an era of rebellion. Consumed with music and influenced by the writings of Jack Kerouac and Timothy Leary, he spent too much time in Greenwich Village coffeehouses to go to college—making him vulnerable to the draft. By 1967 he found himself on the other side of the world in a cargo boat whose volatile freight—ammunition, bombs, rockets, and other high explosives—made it a tempting target for the Vietcong.

“I remember being told at our orientation in Vietnam, ‘Twenty percent of you will probably get killed, and the other eighty percent will probably get a venereal disease or become alcoholics or get hooked on drugs.’ I thought, I don’t even have a one percent chance of coming out normal!

“It was a very dark period. I witnessed suffering. I saw body bags; I saw the devastation from war. And I encountered anti-Semitism among some of the GIs. A few of them from the South even burned a cross one night. I probably wanted to distance myself from my Jewish identity—maybe that’s why I began delving into Eastern religions.”

Lapides read books on Eastern philosophies and visited Buddhist temples while in Japan. “I was extremely bothered by the evil I had seen, and I was trying to figure out how faith can deal with it,” he told me. “I used to say, ’If there’s a God, I don’t care if I find him on Mount Sinai or Mount Fuji. I’ll take him either way’”

He survived Vietnam, returning home with a new found taste for marijuana and plans to become a Buddhist priest. He tried to live an ascetic lifestyle of self-denial in an effort to work off the bad karma for the misdeeds of his past, but soon he realized he’d never be able to make up for all his wrongs.

Lapides was quiet for a moment. “I got depressed,” he said. “I remember getting on the subway and thinking, maybe jumping onto the tracks is the answer. I could free myself from this body and just merge with God. I was very confused. To make matters worse, I started experimenting with LSD.”

Looking for a new start, he decided to move to California, where his spiritual quest continued. “I went to Buddhist meetings, but that was empty,” he said. “Chinese Buddhism was atheistic, Japanese Buddhism worshiped statues of Buddha, Zen Buddhism was too elusive. I went to Scientology meetings, but they were too manipulative and controlling. Hinduism believed in all these crazy orgies that the gods would have and in gods who were blue elephants. None of it made sense; none of it was satisfying.”

He even accompanied friends to meetings that had satanic undercurrents. “I would watch and think, Something is going on here, but it’s not good,” he said. “In the midst of my drug-crazed world, I told my friends I believed there’s a power of evil that’s beyond me, that can work in me, that exists as an entity. I had seen enough evil in my life to believe that.”

He looked at me with an ironic smile. “I guess I accepted Satan’s existence,” he said, “before I accepted God’s.”

 

[Trailblazer]

Didn't we inherit their nature because of the apple? They were created sinless but chose to sin. Was There Death Before Adam Sinned?

Did Death of Any Kind Exist Before the Fall?

That is a Christian doctrine and Bahai's do not believe it. We do not believe that there was an Adam and Eve and a Garden of Eden, we believe that was a story with much symbolism: 30: ADAM AND EVE

The human body was never created to live forever. Eternal life refers to eternal life of the soul not eternal life of the body.

The Meaning of the Tree of Life

“God told Adam not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the words, "For on the day that you eat of it, you will surely die". But there was no such prohibition concerning the Tree of Life. If Adam had eaten from that tree, he would have lived forever and never died. Instead he and his wife ended up eating from the forbidden tree, because they listened to a voice which tempted them to doubt the goodness of God. This is Satan’s tactic today with us. We neglect the LIFE God gives and end up trying to attain it by going on a path forbidden by God.

How good it would have been had Adam instead chosen to eat from the Tree of Life! God had said, "Of every tree in the garden you may freely eat…" Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life! In doing so, he would have known God in an even greater way, and would never have died in any way! If he had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would never have been interested in the forbidden tree. But having NEGLECTED the tree of life, it was really only a matter of time before he would fall to the temptation of eating the forbidden fruit.”

https://www.christian-faith.com/meaning-tree-life/

Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)” What is the Tree of Life?

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in that realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”

Some Answered Questions, p. 124

From: 30: ADAM AND EVE

 

[Skywalker]

That is a Christian doctrine and Bahai's do not believe it. We do not believe that there was an Adam and Ev and a Garden of Eden, we believe that was a story with much symbolism: 30: ADAM AND EVE

The human body was never created to live forever. Eternal life refers to eternal life of the soul not eternal life of the body.

The Meaning of the Tree of Life

“God told Adam not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the words, "For on the day that you eat of it, you will surely die". But there was no such prohibition concerning the Tree of Life. If Adam had eaten from that tree, he would have lived forever and never died. Instead he and his wife ended up eating from the forbidden tree, because they listened to a voice which tempted them to doubt the goodness of God. This is Satan’s tactic today with us. We neglect the LIFE God gives and end up trying to attain it by going on a path forbidden by God.

How good it would have been had Adam instead chosen to eat from the Tree of Life! God had said, "Of every tree in the garden you may freely eat…" Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life! In doing so, he would have known God in an even greater way, and would never have died in any way! If he had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would never have been interested in the forbidden tree. But having NEGLECTED the tree of life, it was really only a matter of time before he would fall to the temptation of eating the forbidden fruit.”

https://www.christian-faith.com/meaning-tree-life/

Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)” What is the Tree of Life?

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in that realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”

Some Answered Questions, p. 124

From: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecies that people say were fulfilled by Israel or Hezekiah. Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 9:6 - New International Version
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 52:13-53:12 - New International Version

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus was arrested by the Romans, buried with thieves, and resurrected. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin by dying for the iniquity of the world. Did Isaiah Know About Jesus Christ Before He Came to Earth?

As I said, Jesus fulfilled some of those prophecies but not all of them:

Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecies that people say were fulfilled by Israel or Hezekiah. Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 9:6 - New International Version
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 52:13-53:12 - New International Version

Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 9:6:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

The messianic prophecies Isaiah 52:13-53:12 were not fulfilled by Israel or Hezekiah, but they were also not fulfilled by Jesus. They were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you believe that there is no bodily resurrection? Bahai people believe in the Bible, and the Bible mentions a bodily resurrection. Is the resurrection physical or spiritual? - creation.com

Baha'is believe the resurrection was just a story men told, not something that ever happened in reality.

We are not alone in that belief. Many liberal Christians do not believe in the bodily resurrection either.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.

In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3

http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you believe that there is no bodily resurrection? Bahai people believe in the Bible, and the Bible mentions a bodily resurrection. Is the resurrection physical or spiritual? - creation.com

From your website:
When Jesus was raised from the dead, His body was transformed into a resurrection body that could never die again. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul tells us that we can look forward to the exact same type of resurrection. In other words, Jesus experienced a human resurrection. This is a physical body, that differs from our fallen mortal bodies in that it will never age, suffer disease, or die.

There is nothing in the Bible that supports such a a belief. There is no such thing as a a physical body, that differs from our fallen mortal bodies in that it will never age, suffer disease, or die. It is not in the Bible, it is a misinterpretation of scripture. Below is a post I posted to another Christian a few months ago:

There is no such thing as a glorious spiritual body of incorruptible light. This is not in the Bible anywhere.

There is no such thing as a physical body that is transformed into an immortal body. It is not in the Bible anywhere. This is a Christian belief that came about because the Bible was misinterpreted. ALL these misconceptions about a Resurrection Body came about because Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

It is clear and plain what the Bible SAYS.

There are physical bodies and spiritual bodies, as Paul said. The physical body is the source of all corruption as the Bible says, it is the source of dishonor, it is weak, and that is because the physical body is subject to sin.

The spiritual body is incorruptible because spirit can never die. Paul said that the body is raised in glory and raised in power and that is because the spiritual body has glory and power. The soul (spirit) is glorified and has power because it was created by God.

Jesus said that spirit and flesh are not equivalent. The spirit quickens, the flesh profits nothing. The flesh profits nothing because it is subject to sin and it is mortal, not everlasting.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Baha’is believe that souls go to heaven and take on a spiritual body, which is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor:
We are raised in a spiritual body because only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

1st Corinthians 15

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The verse above says nothing about the physical body being changed into a glorified body that cannot die. The verses above clearly state that there are two kinds of bodies, a natural body and a spiritual body; we are sown in a natural body and we are raised in a spiritual body.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus will fulfill the Messianic Age prophecies during His Second Coming.

There will be no second coming is the same man Jesus because Jesus never promised to return.
There is not one single verse in the NT wherein Jesus said He would return to earth.
Christians believe that because that is what they have been taught by the Church.

Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.
(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Why do Christians continue to believe what is refuted in their own Bible?
My guess is because that is what they want to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

it won't match up in what we read in scripture.

No, it won't match up, but there is no proof that what you read ever actually happened.
Anyone can write a story, but a story is not proof that the story is true.

As such, what you choose to believe is a matter of faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Gospels tell us of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ. His life is the mediation between the old and new covenants. The new covenant does not come into force until after he has ascended to heaven. So the Christian dispensation does not begin until Christ has ascended to his throne in heaven.

If Jesus is not in heaven on His throne, where is He, according to your beliefs?

The dispensations that you attribute to the Bahai messengers are, according to the Bible, still within the Christian dispensation, a dispensation the continues until the return of Christ.

Baha'is believe that Christ has already returned in the Person of Baha'u'llah and the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah began in 1844.

Jesus never promised to return.
There is not one single verse in the NT wherein Jesus said He would return to earth.
Christians believe that because that is what they have been taught by the Church.

Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.
(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Why do Christians continue to believe what is refuted in their own Bible?
My guess is because that is what they want to believe.

 

[joelr]

Ask me if I care. I am not the one waiting for the return of Christ, the Christians are.

I do not need proof from the Bible, I already have my proof from the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

That's a bit disingenuous?

You said: "Jesus fulfilled the prophecies for the first coming and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies for the second coming.
The main reason that Jews rejected Jesus was because Jesus did not fulfill all the prophecies in their scriptures. Baha'u'llah fulfilled those prophecies as was proven tn the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears"

So I looked at the book. It starts out with a lie. Then it begins to explain how Baha' fulfilled those prophecies. Like you said.
Except there are no prophecies fulfilled. None. They cherry-pick minor details from prophecies that have LONG lists of things that will come about (many are supernatural events) and they pick one or two mundane details (he wore a red robe, he passed by a mountain) in a desperate attempt to say these prophecies came true.

I gave a few examples of how insanely bad they are and how it's an assault on critical thinking. I could go back and demonstrate that every single example if full of mundane details, possible made-up details or any other crank to convince people who want to be convinced.

It even starts out with a lie about how the entire world was watching in 1844 but it was just a prophecy made by a pastor using numerology and by sending daily letters then getting followers in the church to send leters the gained attention around NE and a bit in NY. It's all fraud. The pastor said Jesus would come back and had a 16-point list of things that would happen. Revelations was supposed to happen.

This terrible book tried to say Revelations happened by using - a forest fire, shooting stars and earthquakes as examples.
These things happen every year. They printed the fact that many earthquakes happened in Northern Italy over 50 years that this must be Revelations. 20,000 earthquakes happen every year.
Every single point in this book is junk science and geared at brainwashing people who do not use critical thinking.
The other book is much worse.

I do not care what you think. At all. I post so people not sure can be exposed to scams, fraud and do their own investigations.
In the other book the author clearly laid out 3 attributes a God-messenger MUST HAVE.
Baha' failed on all 3. Awful, incorrect science all of it, no knowledge beyond current political or philosophical of the current world in the 1800's (actually compared to philosophy at the time, Kant and so on, this man writes like a child.)
The medical knowledge is far below a doctor, chemist or biologist of the day. All 3, fail.
This was the evidence given to me to provide proof. It left no doubt this is a straight up hoax. You posted this evidence over and over and over then seem to complain or are surprised when one actually looks at it??


The prophecy about Isiah was a perfect example. The prophecy included the entire world transforming immediately, sick being healed, blind able to see, crippled walking, all deserts producing water for people who are thirsty. What actually happened......a garden was built. Sharon was a metaphor for how the entire world will be.
Not a stupid garden fenced off on a hill called Mt Sharon?
I'm saying to look at each example and see there is nothing there but a con.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not care what you think. At all.

And I do not care what you think at all. I do not even read it for content because I know what it will be.

Post whatever you want. I do not care if you want to try to lead people away from the Baha'i Faith because I know it is the truth and what other people believe is not my responsibility.

I have no idea why some people feel it is their responsibility to disprove a religion for other people. People can think for themselves.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, he was a nice guy. But... was he the return of Christ? Did he really fulfill all the Bible prophecies about the Messiah?

I see the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the promise. I also see Muhammad was foretold.

How you see it is up to you CG.

Regards Tony