Christianity vs. Islam

[Ebionite]

I would never become a Muslim.
But i dont hate Muslims and I see little value in suggesting Christians have superior theology.

Thelogically Islam is like Christianity with Paul or his doctrine.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In Judaism a devil is a false witness...

devil/diablos: prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 20:16

The point being the Devil, as it is known and exists to Christians, is utterly foreign and non-existant in Judaism.

 

[Ebionite]

The point being the Devil, as it is known and exists to Christians, is utterly foreign and non-existant in Judaism.

Only if you ignore what devil means and how that meaning is applied in Exodus 20:16

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Only if you ignore what devil means and how that meaning is applied in Exodus 20:16

No. The Christian devil does not exist in any way in Judaism. They have a word something like "satan," a verb meaning roughly "to oppose," with "ha-Satan" basically being a title for "the Adversary," but this is most definitely an angel of god and loyal and obedient and clearly not the Christian Devil.
Thou shalt not bear false witness has nothing to do with any sort of devil. It just means don't lie.

 

[Ebionite]

No. The Christian devil does not exist in any way in Judaism

Denying the facts doesn't add anything to your argument. Satan and the devil are different, a satan is an adversary while a devil is a slanderer. In Christianity demons are associated with the devil, and demons are mentioned in Judaism.

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils[שדים]
Psalm 106:27

שד = demon

Bearing false witness is worse than simply lying because it can be vindictive.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Denying the facts doesn't add anything to your argument.

I'm not the one trying to stretch things into something they are not and make comparisons that don't exist. There is no entity or character in Judaism comparable to the Christian Devil.

 

[Ebionite]

I'm not the one trying to stretch things into something they are not and make comparisons that don't exist.

How do you think I'm doing that?

There is no entity or character in Judaism comparable to the Christian Devil.

An adversary can also be a false accuser. Job did not curse YHWH.

But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:11

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How do you think I'm doing that?

Because I say there is no Devil character in Judaism like there is in Christianity, but you keep going on about this word and that word that do not make a devil character comparable to what Christianity has.

 

[Ebionite]

Because I say there is no Devil character in Judaism like there is in Christianity, but you keep going on about this word and that word that do not make a devil character comparable to what Christianity has.

So you're just restating your denial and misrepresenting what I said. Got it.

 

[Rival]

Denying the facts doesn't add anything to your argument. Satan and the devil are different, a satan is an adversary while a devil is a slanderer. In Christianity demons are associated with the devil, and demons are mentioned in Judaism.

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils[שדים]
Psalm 106:27

שד = demon

Bearing false witness is worse than simply lying because it can be vindictive.

There is no devil in Judaism as in Christianity and Islam. Satan is a title not a name; it is a title that means 'accuser' or 'one who hinders'. He is wholly subservient to G-d and is there to do G-d's bidding as he does in the Book of Job. As a being he is mentioned only a handful of times in the whole Tanakh. Satan has a job to do as any other angel, and his job is to accuse in the way of an attorney or prosecutor, as well as test people - particularly righteous people. He can do nothing without G-d's prior say-so. In other Jewish circles Satan is not even seen as a material being but an immaterial conception of one's yetzer ha'ra, the evil inclination.

Shadow Wolf is not making this up; she has no dog in this fight as she is neither a Jew nor a Christian and has nothing to gain from taking either side. The word 'devil' has a Greek root not a Hebrew one and as the Tanakh is written in Hebrew and Aramaic, this word is not there.

 

[Ebionite]

There is no devil in Judaism as in Christianity and Islam.

The Satan of Job 2:4 fits the description.

Satan is a title not a name; it is a title that means 'accuser' or 'one who hinders'.

Or adversary.

He is wholly subservient to G-d and is there to do G-d's bidding as he does in the Book of Job.

"G-d" is ambiguous.

As a being he is mentioned only a handful of times in the whole Tanakh.

The title doesn't always refer to the same being.

Satan has a job to do as any other angel

Satan itsn't always an angel/messenger: 2 Samuel 24:2, 1 Chronicles 21:1

The word 'devil' has a Greek root not a Hebrew one and as the Tanakh is written in Hebrew and Aramaic, this word is not there.

The Greek root word is diablos, the closest Hebrew words are שעירם or שדים

שעירם is also translated as goats, and is suggestive of goat's horns.

And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils[שעירם], after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
Leviticus 17:7

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils [שדים],
Psalm 106:37

 

[Rival]

The Satan of Job 2:4 fits the description.

I'm really not sure how. In the whole book we see that Satan is under G-d's control.

Or adversary.

Yes.

"G-d" is ambiguous.

How?

The title doesn't always refer to the same being.

Well isn't that convenient for you? Even if it doesn't, your claim that there is a devil figure in the Tanakh is wrong and I'd like to see evidence of one.

Satan itsn't always an angel/messenger: 2 Samuel 24:2, 1 Chronicles 21:1

Yes, I mentioned that Satan is also defined in Judaism as the yetzer ha'ra, the evil inclination. I'm not sure what your issue is with these passages.

The Greek root word is diablos, the closest Hebrew words are שעירם or שדים

שעירם is also translated as goats, and is suggestive of goat's horns.

And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils[שעירם], after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
Leviticus 17:7

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils [שדים],
Psalm 106:37

Alternate translations say sartyrs. Another says demons. The text also does not align whatever these beings are with Satan.

 

[Ebionite]

How?

But ye are they that forsake YHWH, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for GD, and that furnish the drink offering unto MNY.
Isaiah 65:11

Although the existence of a god named Gad has long been recognized (Noth 1966: 126-127), the general tendency of biblical scholarship has been to treat him as an abstract figure exclusively associated with the concept of fortune and thus essentially a lesser divinity in the West Semitic pantheon.
The god Gad « Religion and Literature of Ancient Palestine

Even if you you're talking about the God of the Bible the ambiguity remains, since theos and elohim are both translated as "God", and one is singular while the other is plural.

 

[Rival]

But ye are they that forsake YHWH, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for GD, and that furnish the drink offering unto MNY.
Isaiah 65:11

Although the existence of a god named Gad has long been recognized (Noth 1966: 126-127), the general tendency of biblical scholarship has been to treat him as an abstract figure exclusively associated with the concept of fortune and thus essentially a lesser divinity in the West Semitic pantheon.
The god Gad « Religion and Literature of Ancient Palestine

Even if you you're talking about the God of the Bible the ambiguity remains, since theos and elohim are both translated as "God", and one is singular while the other is plural.

The judges are also called elohim, what's your point?

 

[Ebionite]

The judges are also called elohim, what's your point?

You said "He is wholly subservient to G-d and is there to do G-d's bidding as he does in the Book of Job."

The ambiguity remains.

 

[Rival]

You said "He is wholly subservient to G-d and is there to do G-d's bidding as he does in the Book of Job."

The ambiguity remains.

What's ambiguous about Satan being subservient to his Creator?

 

[Ebionite]

What's ambiguous about Satan being subservient to his Creator?

Why are you avoiding the issue of the ambiguity of "G-d"?

 

[Rival]

Why are you avoiding the issue of the ambiguity of "G-d"?

What are you talking about? Writing G-d with a dash is a Jewish custom, I'm not avoiding anything. If anything you're the one not answering any of my questions.

 

[Ebionite]

What are you talking about?

The fact that it's a custom doesn't mean that it's unambiguous. What 'G-d' are you talking about with reference to the book of Job?

 

[Rival]

The fact that it's a custom doesn't mean that it's unambiguous. What 'G-d' are you talking about with reference to the book of Job?

There's only one G-d in Tanakh.