Christianity vs. Islam

[dybmh]

Hub

How is this word pronounced? Please?

 

[dybmh]

@whirlingmerc ,

I don't know if you're wrong. All I know is that the Qu'ran describes Allah in an Islamic manner. This is panentheistic, if I understand properly.

Christianity rends to make G-d more approachable... and that means giving G-d form and features often in a trinity. Muslims object to this, but G-d is G-d. How a person approaches G-d, if they are so inclined, is their choice. For people who choose to soar far beyond form and function in their worship and communion with G-d, then, Islam is probably a good fit for them. If someone finds form and function to be useful in their worship and communion with G-d, then Christianity is probably better fit.

These two different appearances to worship and communion with the divine are reflected in the Qur'an and Hadith for Muslims and in the OT/NT Bible for Christians.

Personally, I object to the the entire concept of Christianity VS. Islam. Why pit these two against each other as if one needs to be the winner and the other a loser. I just don't get that at all.

 

[whirlingmerc]

@whirlingmerc ,

I don't know if you're wrong. All I know is that the Qu'ran describes Allah in an Islamic manner. This is panentheistic, if I understand properly.

Christianity rends to make G-d more approachable... and that means giving G-d form and features often in a trinity. Muslims object to this, but G-d is G-d. How a person approaches G-d, if they are so inclined, is their choice. For people who choose to soar far beyond form and function in their worship and communion with G-d, then, Islam is probably a good fit for them. If someone finds form and function to be useful in their worship and communion with G-d, then Christianity is probably better fit.

These two different appearances to worship and communion with the divine are reflected in the Qur'an and Hadith for Muslims and in the OT/NT Bible for Christians.

Personally, I object to the the entire concept of Christianity VS. Islam. Why pit these two against each other as if one needs to be the winner and the other a loser. I just don't get that at all.

A comparison might be helpful.

God is only more approachable in Christianity because of the work of Jesus on the cross. The view of the temple tore as Jesus died being ripped from top to bottom. God is described as holy and without a work of ultimate atonement God would not be approachable.

Isaiah 63:5
I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me.​

In Christianity a love driven God reaches down and even comes down from His glory to help those who could not help themselves. Part of the love is love of God for His own holiness and protecting it and near the apex of God's glory is showing mercy, lifting the elect up to Himself. Assurance promised many ways not the least of which is Jesus saying 'I will never leave you or forsake you'.

In Islam God commands people to help themselves. Pull themselves up to heaven by their bootstraps. No assurance given and you never really know if you are saved and will have to wait and see.

 

[dybmh]

In Christianity a love driven God reaches down and even comes down from His glory to help those who could not help themselves.

I am 85% sure that this concept is reflected in the Qur'an as well. It is the definition of "Mercy". But a Muslim or an Islamic scholar may be needed to confirm this...

In Islam God commands people to help themselves. Pull themselves up to heaven by their bootstraps. No assurance given and you never really know if you are saved and will have to wait and see.

OK. On this, I am 95% sure that you are wrong here. I have not finished reading the Qu'ran ( far from it ). I keep re-readng the first 5 surahs over and over again, because the English translations are difficult reading for me. But just going from memory, there are plenty of assurances. Almost every time Allah is portrayed as strict, the strict verse is surrounded by assurances of mercy. I would say... ( again from memory ) the assurances out number the "Pull yourself by your bootstraps" by a factor of 3 to 1 at least.

 

[dybmh]

God is described as holy and without a work of ultimate atonement God would not be approachable.

Correction: God would not be approachable for a Christian. We Jews and our Muslim brothers and sisters ( as far as I know, apologies to Muslims if this statement is somehow inaccurate ) do it all the time. There's no problem at all approaching God for us without the "ultimate atonement" ( aka The Christ ).

 

[loverofhumanity]

The love of God in the Bible comes from the amazing strong love the Father had for the Son in the Trinity from all eternity. The church is in Christ and the Father loves them with the love he had every before the world was made

The love of God in the Koran is not Go';s love for God and even the Koran says 'God does not love sinners' and yet in the Bible 'God demonstrated his love for us that while sinners Christ died for us'

"It is no defect of a great fountain that it might overflow"
Jonathan Edwards in the End for which God created the world on creation

The Quran fully upholds the Gospels so the unconditional love of God is part of Islam.
One cannot become a Muslim unless they accept Jesus and the Gospels so these texts are part of Islam.

God, there is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting. He sent down the Book upon thee in truth, confirming what was before it, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, as a guidance to mankind.(Sura 3:2-3)

Muhammad came to bring God to the Arabs and unite the warring tribes into a nation so the laws revealed in the Quran are focusing more on community building whereas Christ’s teachings emphasised mainly the individual.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The Quran fully upholds the Gospels so the unconditional love of God is part of Islam.
One cannot become a Muslim unless they accept Jesus and the Gospels so these texts are part of Islam.

God, there is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting. He sent down the Book upon thee in truth, confirming what was before it, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, as a guidance to mankind.(Sura 3:2-3)

Muhammad came to bring God to the Arabs and unite the warring tribes into a nation so the laws revealed in the Quran are focusing more on community building whereas Christ’s teachings emphasised mainly the individual.

It doesn't sound like unconditional love.
“Allah loves not transgressors” (2:190);
“He loves not creatures ungrateful or wicked” (2:276);
“Allah loves not those who do wrong” (3:57, 140)

In contrast Romans does say, Christ died for Sinners
but the Koran says Jesus did not die... so ... do they believe in the real gospels and the real Jesus?
If they are wrong about Jesus dying and rising... what should they do about it?

 

[sooda]

@whirlingmerc ,

I don't know if you're wrong. All I know is that the Qu'ran describes Allah in an Islamic manner. This is panentheistic, if I understand properly.

Christianity rends to make G-d more approachable... and that means giving G-d form and features often in a trinity. Muslims object to this, but G-d is G-d. How a person approaches G-d, if they are so inclined, is their choice. For people who choose to soar far beyond form and function in their worship and communion with G-d, then, Islam is probably a good fit for them. If someone finds form and function to be useful in their worship and communion with G-d, then Christianity is probably better fit.

These two different appearances to worship and communion with the divine are reflected in the Qur'an and Hadith for Muslims and in the OT/NT Bible for Christians.

Personally, I object to the the entire concept of Christianity VS. Islam. Why pit these two against each other as if one needs to be the winner and the other a loser. I just don't get that at all.

Muslims worship shoulder to shoulder in a highly proscribed manner. What are you talking about?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Muslims worship shoulder to shoulder in a highly proscribed manner. What are you talking about?

If God chose to bring people to him through Jesus atoning death on the cross, then rejecting that may be sincere but a good fit for no one.

 

[sooda]

If God chose to bring people to him through Jesus atoning death on the cross, then rejecting that may be sincere but a good fit for no one.

Muslims revere Jesus as the purest of the prophets.. a man without sin and born of a virgin.

His death on the cross is offensive to their sense of justice since they believe he was unworthy of such a cruel and humiliating death... You see Muslims don't believe in blood sacrifice.

 

[dybmh]

Muslims worship shoulder to shoulder in a highly proscribed manner. What are you talking about?

I'm sorry... Heehee,

I was using the word "approach" figuratively, not literally. I also see a typo/spellcheck-gone-wrong in one of the sentences. The word "appearances" was supposed to be "approaches". It was supposed to say "these two different approaches..."

Does that make more sense?

Example: my approach to religion is liberal.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Muslims revere Jesus as the purest of the prophets.. a man without sin and born of a virgin.

His death on the cross is offensive to their sense of justice since they believe he was unworthy of such a cruel and humiliating death... You see Muslims don't believe in blood sacrifice.

And there's the problem. The New Testament has Jesus dying for sin and the Koran disagrees. I feel you can't have it both ways. Something can't be true and not true in the same sense. That's the law of non contradicitons.

 

[sooda]

And there's the rub. The New Testament has Jesus dying for sin and the Koran disagrees. I feel you can't have it both ways. Something can't be true and not true in the same sense. That's the law of non contradicitons.

They reject blood sacrifice and original sin.

 

[whirlingmerc]

They reject blood sacrifice and original sin.

They have an original sin of Adam but the effect on mankind was not seen as strong as the apostle's descriptions.

Romans 8
20 For the creation pwassubjected to futility, not willingly, but qbecause of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that rthe creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption ando btain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that sthewhole creation thas been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have uthe firstfruits of theSpirit, vgroan inwardly as wwe wait eagerly for adoption as sons, theredemption of our bodies. 24 For yin this hope we were saved. Now zhope that isseen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what wedo not see, we await for it with patience.
​

I feel that in Islam there is no similar concept of the effects of the fall or the redemption of man and the world from that

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why pit these two against each other as if one needs to be the winner and the other a loser. I just don't get that at all.

I assume it's because they've been doing it to themselves for many centuries.

 

[sooda]

They have an original sin of Adam but the effect on mankind was not seen as strong as the apostle's descriptions.

Romans 8
20 For the creation pwassubjected to futility, not willingly, but qbecause of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that rthe creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption ando btain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that sthewhole creation thas been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have uthe firstfruits of theSpirit, vgroan inwardly as wwe wait eagerly for adoption as sons, theredemption of our bodies. 24 For yin this hope we were saved. Now zhope that isseen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what wedo not see, we await for it with patience.
​

I feel there is no similar concept of the effects of the fall or the redemption of man and the world from that

The Bible contradicts itself six times regarding "sins of the father".. Perhaps that why they didn't settle one original sin doctrine until 300 AD.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I assume it's because they've been doing it to themselves for many centuries.

There are probably various motives.

Of course not the least of which being believing your world view is true.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The Bible contradicts itself six times regarding "sins of the father".. Perhaps that why they didn't settle one original sin doctrine until 300 AD.

Those who love God are blessed to 1000 generations, swallowing up the worst curse. (prelude to the 10 commandments)
All things work together for good to those who love God (Rm 8:28)
In the New Covenant, God will never turn from doing you good. (Jer 32:40)

The sins of the fathers reaching to the 3rd or 10th generations in a sense as far as effect, like hereditary addiction but not in the sense of justice. A practical consequence of the sins of the parents

Fathers not being put to death for the sins of their churldren and vice versa is an issue of justice
There should not be vigilantism against a father for a crime of his son. There should not be vigilantism against a son for what a father has done.

Adam was different in that he federally represented mankind as Jesus federally represented the elect of mankind being redeemed. There can be a substitute sacrifice in that sense.
​

all different issues

A similar explanation is here
Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not? | CARM.org

 

[firedragon]

I am a Christian and I have on occasion read parts of the Quran. This is the major difference between the God of the Quran (Allah) and the God of the Bible and it is significant. In the Bible, God first loved us; unconditionally. No matter what we do He still loves us. In the Quran, Allah’s love is conditional upon obedience. Obey first, then He will love you. Anyone have any thoughts?

The kind of post that comes up. Awesome.


Then why does the Bible confine death to a son of a sinner?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

God is only more approachable in Christianity because of the work of Jesus on the cross.

Or more appropriately for Christians, striving to be like Christ on the cross can lead to an understanding our relationship to God. Christ is a symbol for something in ourselves, and other religions have their symbols for this, including Muslims.