Christians, anything wrong with the following?

[Ingledsva]

If Jehovah had not sent his son, what would our situation be?
...?

We could also ask -

If - supposedly all knowing - YHVH hadn't started things off so poorly, what would our situation be?

*

 

[ratiocinator]

You didn't lose it. You never had it. When Adam and Eve had children, both were sinful and in the process of dying. They could not produce sinless children.

So all of us were punished for Adam's sin - by being made innately sinful. What's just about that?

If not for Jehovah's undeserved mercy, none of us would have any hope, IMO.

If "Jehovah" had been just in the first place, we'd have a choice.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

For one thing, God did not punish us by giving us the gift of life we now enjoy, however briefly. He was not obligated to help us in any way, but his love moved him to give us back what Adam lost for us.

I think that you would have liked a humanist god better - not so big on punishing you for being what you are. Such a god would get nothing out of harsh, angry, judgement and get no pleasure out of keeping you unconscious after death just to make you suffer gratutiously when he dropped you in a lake of fire.

That's not a humanist value. We've got that beat by a mile.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If God exists (and you couldn't possibly know he doesn't) then you choosing not to decide was still a choice.

If you're talking about the Christian god, you are incorrect. I can and do know its ontological status.

I'm agnostic about the ideas of gods - universe creators - but not logically impossible ones.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

II have given you scriptures or paraphrased biblical doctrine that defy every claim about the bible you have made.

You did? I guess that I haven't gotten to that yet. I look forward to seeing it.

If you want to see who is right then pick any one of them, drop everything else, then we can see who was right. Your choice.

Sorry, but if you have a case to make, make it. Your religious beliefs are for you. I only care about what you know and can demonstrate with evidence or compellingly argue. Do you have anything in that department?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I told you before that the next absurdity you post I was going to halt my participation in our discussion. I couldn't decide whether the above was enough of an absurdity to pull the trigger. I always gamble on the side of forgiveness, so I will not end this here, but your close

That's what we love about you - your fortitude and lion heart. Thanks for not abandoning us yet. Feel free to withdraw your affection whenever the mood strikes. We'll be grateful for whatever part of you infinite spirit you grace us with until you do.

Are some comments too difficult - too "absurd" - for you to countenance? If so, please feel free to back away from them. I'll address a different Christian if that's what you require.

God has no physical attributes so bringing up any physical analogy to explain what "created in his image" means is pathetic.

That was pretty much my point. We do have physicial attributes, and they define a huge portion of the human experience. Because of them, we can feel hunger, cold, nausea, and the sting of fire.

We are also part of a biological chain. We have parents and children. This god knows nothing of such things.

We are imperfect and less than omniscient. So we have shame and regret, divorces, and courtroom battles.

There is no meaningful sense in which man is made in the image of that god. I have more in common with any any sentient, incarnate animal on earth.

Are these ideas agitating you?

 

[Valerian]

This is an image (created in 2013 I believe) that first appeared on the Betty Bowers ("America's Best Christian") web site, which has since found itself popping up across the internet---it was recently posted in a thread here on RF. It's a parody of the For Dummies instructional/reference books.

I realize some Christians might take exception to it, perhaps as an abuse of a well known theme of Jesus knocking on the door, but aside from that, as a succinct summery of Christian salvation I believe it's spot on.

Any disagreements?

.

To turn one’s back on years of preaching and various forms of evidence for Jesus /God will have its consequences.

But beyond that --- any non-believer, any Protestant, or any Catholic who thinks they know for certain who goes to heaven / who will not be allowed in, or what are the pre-requisites for either --- they, like you, would be of extreme presumption and error. It is a disgrace and a folly, even sinful, to hear such boldness.

 

[Skwim]

To turn one’s back on years of preaching and various forms of evidence for Jesus /God will have its consequences.

For all the incompetent preachers and their wanting evidence, I would certainly hope so.

But beyond that --- any non-believer, any Protestant, or any Catholic who thinks they know for certain who goes to heaven / who will not be allowed in, or what are the pre-requisites for either --- they, like you, would be of extreme presumption and error. It is a disgrace and a folly, even sinful, to hear such boldness.

?..?...?.....?......?

In any case, I take your irrelevant remarks here as a dodge to confronting the illustration and my opinion: "as a succinct summery of Christian salvation I believe it's spot on." So I'm going to assume you agree, but don't want to admit it.
.

 

[1robin]

If you're talking about the Christian god, you are incorrect. I can and do know its ontological status.

I'm agnostic about the ideas of gods - universe creators - but not logically impossible ones.

To claim that you know a universal negative is arrogant, absurd, and lowers your credibility. I thought I had previously given up on our discussion, but I couldn't remember for certain, I now see why I probably had given up on you. The next absurdity I see from you will end this discussion for good.

 

[1robin]

You did? I guess that I haven't gotten to that yet. I look forward to seeing it.

I am not going back and spending more time copying what you apparently have no intention of reading. You either need to read more carefully or go back and review. I am not posting the same things over and over again. I do not have the time. Failing that, you can post new claims about Christianity or the bible to evaluate.

Sorry, but if you have a case to make, make it. Your religious beliefs are for you. I only care about what you know and can demonstrate with evidence or compellingly argue. Do you have anything in that department?

I gave you the opportunity to choose any one of YOUR OWN points. Then we could see which side the majority of the evidence is on. I have already shown that my original contention, that Christianity made up the bulk of our nation's foundation is true, I do not have anything additional to demonstrate. If you are not going to defend your own claims there is not anything further to discuss.

 

[1robin]

That's what we love about you - your fortitude and lion heart. Thanks for not abandoning us yet. Feel free to withdraw your affection whenever the mood strikes. We'll be grateful for whatever part of you infinite spirit you grace us with until you do.

Are some comments too difficult - too "absurd" - for you to countenance? If so, please feel free to back away from them. I'll address a different Christian if that's what you require.

Does it make you feel more secure to create a proxy group of like minded people who all share your conclusions?

If I am going to discuss a subject for very long with another person, given the limited time I have I require at least one of the following from them.

1. Sincerity.
2. Ability or competence.
3. Civility.
4. Or even good natured humor.

When I can't get any of the four I eventually decide I cannot justify wasting of my time any further. So, you and your army of 1, need to pick up your game.

That was pretty much my point. We do have physicial attributes, and they define a huge portion of the human experience. Because of them, we can feel hunger, cold, nausea, and the sting of fire.

We are also part of a biological chain. We have parents and children. This god knows nothing of such things.

We are imperfect and less than omniscient. So we have shame and regret, divorces, and courtroom battles.

There is no meaningful sense in which man is made in the image of that god. I have more in common with any any sentient, incarnate animal on earth.

Are these ideas agitating you?

Physical attributes have nothing to do with the concept of "made in God's image". The bible is not referring to how I look or feel to God's image. Once you understand that then you are left with only one argument. Not the one your making, the only argument arising from our being made in God's image is if you had said that if God lacks any physical quality then he also lacks experiential knowledge and so is not omnipotent. I am so desperate I am trying my best to help you make an actual argument.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

To claim that you know a universal negative is arrogant, absurd, and lowers your credibility. I thought I had previously given up on our discussion, but I couldn't remember for certain, I now see why I probably had given up on you. The next absurdity I see from you will end this discussion for good.

Bellying up? I have no objection.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Physical attributes have nothing to do with the concept of "made in God's image". The bible is not referring to how I look or feel to God's image.

So says you. What do the next 10,000 Christians assert without support without support?

 

[rusra02]

I think that you would have liked a humanist god better - not so big on punishing you for being what you are. Such a god would get nothing out of harsh, angry, judgement and get no pleasure out of keeping you unconscious after death just to make you suffer gratutiously when he dropped you in a lake of fire.

That's not a humanist value. We've got that beat by a mile.

Some people are murderers, others are rapists, child molesters, thieves, you name it. Is it your postion such ones should not be punished for being what they are? "Everlasting destruction", not torment, is the punishment for willful sin. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)

 

[Valerian]

For all the incompetent preachers and their wanting evidence, I would certainly hope so.

?..?...?.....?......?
In any case, I take your irrelevant remarks here as a dodge to confronting the illustration and my opinion: "as a succinct summery of Christian salvation I believe it's spot on." So I'm going to assume you agree, but don't want to admit it..

Here is why I find your reasoning or meme to be bogus.

Who is Jesus talking to in those words? He is talking to those who been exposed to the teachings in various ways but currently have no use for Him or involvement with His teachings.

Obviously, if you are in some primitive tribe in Africa or a destitute Hindu in Delhi you may never hear Jesus Christ “knocking” in some clear or profound way. So the knock is for you, not them. But you want to make this out to be as though it is one or two moments in one’s life where one has ample reason to consider the message or the evidence and says “no way.” No. It is a message or evidence that has been presented in many ways on many occasions with true reason that the selfish man or the lazy man says “no” to. So your excuses wear thin.

Romans 2:14-15 “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.”

Secondly, you want to make it sound like some person was better off never having heard of Jesus Christ and being totally blameless. First of all, no one is totally blameless once they reach an age of accountability. Also, only an atheist could make such a remark. If there is a God above then there is deep purpose for our time here on earth faced with struggles, fears and choices. Jesus did not come down from heaven suffer and die for no intended purpose.

You see, what you and most of the world does not understand is that there is a purgatory, not just a heaven and a hell. And by bringing the world to know Jesus they do not necessarily increase their chances of going to hell by then rejecting Him --- but they increase their chances of shortening their time in purgatory where they are purified, and also assist those around them for the same noble cause. No, the world would be a much darker, dreary, sorrowful, violent and inhospitable place without having know Jesus Christ and his commands of being charitable and forgiving towards others.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't see how this Jehovah is supposed to be so merciful, loving, and forgiving when he expresses far less of those features than my mother.

First of all, no one is totally blameless once they reach an age of accountability. Also, only an atheist could make such a remark.

Then why are so many Christians so quick to displace blame and say it's the devil's fault?

 

[Valerian]

I don't see how this Jehovah is supposed to be so merciful, loving, and forgiving when he expresses far less of those features than my mother.

Perhaps your mother did not encounter the evil one as often and violently as our Lord does? ‘Tis far easier to be neighborly and accepting to those around us when they are not trying to destroy our lives and our souls. But the pain your mother may have inflicted upon you as a child was for a loving purpose. God wants us to endure trials and difficulties for the sake of becoming a being more grateful for goodness and more noble having taken up the cross. What parent would prefer to raise a child that was given everything and grateful for nothing? What husband would prefer a wife forced to love him verses chooses to love him?

[me: "First of all, no one is totally blameless once they reach an age of accountability. Also, only an atheist could make such a remark."]
Then why are so many Christians so quick to displace blame and say it's the devil's fault?

Who knows? In the vast majority of cases I would submit it is a cop out and a worthless excuse. Without doubt the devil influences the hearts and minds of men, but only to some degree of temptation. To those furthest removed from piety and love God those temptations become much easier to indulge in. To those close to God, they carry much greater guilt having acquiesced --- and the more often they pray for forgiveness with a truly contrite heart, the more graces they receive and the ability to resist temptations in the future becomes easier.

 

[1robin]

Bellying up? I have no objection.

I don't know what bellying up means in this context.

 

[1robin]

So says you. What do the next 10,000 Christians assert without support without support?

It does not matter what I or any other Christian says, it matters what God revealed. But you seem to have no interest in what the bible actually says. You never ask for scriptures to back up my claims, and when I provide them on my own initiative you seemingly ignore them, and change the topic.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not know why people take fiction so seriously?