Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

[CG Didymus]

IF you have seen Jesus THEN you have seen the Father. IF you have seen the Father THEN you have seen Jesus

Sai Baba is the Father, hence I have seen Jesus, hence I know

Except the problem is born-again Christians won't believe you. They believe they "know" their Jesus and Sai Baba, for them, is not Jesus. Then there is the Baha'is. I doubt if they will believe you also, since they believe their prophet is the return of Christ, and they don't believe another manifestation will come for at least 1000 years. What evidence and proof do they have? Probably nothing more than their prophet or their Scriptures say so. But, as you know, they reject each other too.

 

[Brian2]

Are you just preaching, here?

I think it was an appropriate reply to @stvdv 's comment in post 9 (even though stvdv sounded tongue in cheek)

stvdv said: IF you have seen Jesus THEN you have seen the Father. IF you have seen the Father THEN you have seen Jesus

Sai Baba is the Father, hence I have seen Jesus, hence I know

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible, or any Scripture for that matter, points us in the right direction.

I think some people take them too literal which then...

I know the essence of the Bible is true

Causes them to miss the essence of what is being said which then...

I focus on the bigger picture, which is true

Causes them not to see the bigger picture. And all those thoughts of yours are similar to what a Baha'i may say, but will they see the essence of your beliefs, or get to wrapped up in Baha'u'llah being the "only" truth for today? Meaning... Can they truly see and believe in the oneness and truth in all religions? If they reject Sai Baba, then I'd say they can't.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'll repeat myself:--
Can you explain what you mean by ‘believe in Him’?
Do I believe that he was…
a) a good man?
b) a prophet?
c) the Messiah?
d) the Second Person of the Trinity?
e) Savior?
f) that He existed?

What do you mean? (see #15)

The way a Christian believes in Him. So for your denomination it might be a bit different. But if you do believe Christ was sent by God, how do you know that? What is it that makes you believe in Jesus?

 

[Brian2]

The agenda of the critical thinker is to avoid holding false beliefs and to accumulate only demonstrably correct ones. Faith is not a path to truth. That's self-evidently true, since whatever can be believed by faith, so can its polar opposite. This is a method that can't tell a correct idea from an incorrect one, and which is orders of magnitude more likely to be faith in a wrong idea that a correct one, since the former far outnumbers the latter.

If people of faith chose their belief by choosing from a hat, one out of millions of other possible beliefs, then chance might have something to do with it and what you said might make some sense.

 

[CG Didymus]

I recall an incident where I was at work and one lady was a devout Christian. She was friendly and we got along fine. But when she heard I believed in Buddha and Muhammad and Krishna she said the Bible condemns them all as false prophets.

So I challenged her to show me exactly where the name Buddha was mentioned as a false teacher because Buddha came well before Christ. She kept flipping pages saying He was Satan but I asked for exactly where was His name mentioned and she couldn’t find it because it’s not there!

The Bible never condemns Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna or Baha’u’llah. It is purely a concoction of Christian laymen and clergy. Yet Christians act so sure that all other religions are false without any backing whatsoever from the Bible.

The Bible is the Word of God. So it should know who is false and who is true yet you will not find any condemnation of Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad or Baha’u’llah in it whatsoever. Yet, according to most Christians we are all deceived by Satan and only their spiritual experiences are valid not ours.

To me that’s prejudice because Christians themselves admit that their belief comes down to a ‘subjective gut feeling’ one that they call ‘satanic’ for any other religionists of any other religion to have.

And where in the Bible does it say Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religion is true? Where in the Hebrew Bible does it say Christianity is true?

 

[Brian2]

But then, like here on this thread, there is you a Christian and Loverofhumanity a Baha'i. You both believe you have enough evidence that your beliefs are true, yet they contradict each other. Your evidence is such that you know that his evidence is false. The Jesus he believes in is not the same Jesus you believe in. And, if you are a Trinitarian Christian, the God you believe in is not the same God he believes in.

But, as the thread about religion being a placebo, does it matter? Both of you try to live by the things your religious beliefs tell you. If God is real, then I think it does matter. Is one of your religions true and the other false? Are both of them true? How can we know without more and better evidence?

If God spoke, appeared to people, sent angels, sent prophets etc, in the Bible, then God has ways to prove himself real. If he didn't, then the Bible is just a book of religious myth. If the Baha'is are right, and all we can know about God is from his manifestations, then what the Bible says about God and what he's done and can do is still fictional.

The fruit of Baha'u'llah is to throw doubt on the Bible and it's obvious meaning. It says the Bible is true but then tells us about the places it is not true and the places it does not mean what it says.
Are you talking specifically about Baha'i?

 

[stvdv]

Many people like yourself have spiritual experiences which put you in touch with God. No one can invalidate your experience but in many forums I come across people mostly Christians who tell me my spiritual experience is not valid and that I am deceived by Satan, all while admitting that they themselves believe by faith.

Hence the Wise advise "don't throw pearls to swines"

I loved the advice given by the Wise "only share after you got all the benefits of personal Divine experiences"

If you got all the benefits, no one ever take it away from you, and negative attacks don't dent your faith at all

Usually I share personal experiences not in the first year, but I rather wait 3 years (even Bible speaks about education length of 3 years) before sharing God's Granted Gifts

Also a good exercise in silence and patience, both excellent virtues for a sadhaka

 

[Brian2]

Can you make a case for some other kind of epistemic evidence? So it's all a conspiracy. We're working for the opposing team.
"Evidence for faith" sounds a bit oxymoronic; evidence for the unevidenced. "People of faith" = "people of unwarranted belief."
No. That is not what's meant by faith. It's poetic gibberish.
How is belief 'assurance'?
How about when they're shown to be unwarranted?
I've noticed that.
How does God supply you with answers; by what mechanism? And why does He supply different people of different faiths with with conflicting answers?

How has it been shown that faith in the God of the Bible is unwarranted?

 

[stvdv]

Except the problem is born-again Christians won't believe you. They believe they "know" their Jesus and Sai Baba, for them, is not Jesus. Then there is the Baha'is. I doubt if they will believe you also, since they believe their prophet is the return of Christ, and they don't believe another manifestation will come for at least 1000 years. What evidence and proof do they have? Probably nothing more than their prophet or their Scriptures say so. But, as you know, they reject each other too.

Thank you for your kind reply

And true, I know that there are (plenty of) people who don't believe what I believe,
which is totally fine with me, as I believe that there is not 1 correct belief

Why ?
Because belief does not equal Goal
Belief is the Start...Goal is the End
Scriptures are roadmaps to End Goal
Reading roadmaps without travelling
Obviously won't get you to the Goal

Fortunately, this OP didn't ask:
"Share how you know Jesus and the Bible are true, and in such a way that all can agree". I would not even have tried

 

[Brian2]

This is an interesting perspective I haven't really put into thought quite like this. I might state it a little differently, in that this inappropriate expectation of evidence in regard to what is inherently ineffable and transcendent is in effect nothing more than a glorified strawman argument. It stuffs a soldier full of straw of their own design, and then knocks it down with the greatest of ease and calls that a victory; "If God were real, he would show up on deepfield scans of outer space, and since he doesn't, God isn't real".

The problem with this of course is that isn't evidence either for or against God. It is rather evidence for or against people's ideas about God. "There isn't evidence that supports the idea that God lives in a cave in the mountains", is a correct statement. "I don't believe that God exists, because there isn't evidence God lives in cave in the mountains. Therefore, I'm an atheist and don't believe any God exists," is a fallacy of logic.

Is it an excuse to avoid "God"? That's a challenging question, and I think the answers are more complex than that. Ultimately however, anything we do in life that avoids a confrontation with the Infinite, including being religious, can be that for us. But that's not just atheism. That's any of our human projects of Self-avoidance, or I prefer the term our "Atman Projects". We could start a whole thread on that.

There certainly are a lot of ways to avoid meaningful answers to the big questions. Other things in life can just become so important and time consuming that God is forgotten.
Being religious should mean that the confrontation with God has already happened and we see our need for God, but I suppose people can hide in belief and religion.

Well, yes. I consider that when you meet a "True Believer", those that refuse to let go of their beliefs in the face of hard evidence to the contrary, such as denying the science of evolution in favor of a literal reading of the book of Genesis as a scientific account, that indicates a weakness of their rooting, or ground, or faith.

It can take time to allow ourselves to go from one important belief we hold to a contrary belief and sometimes those beliefs are less important than we have been led to believe in the array of beliefs we have in our faith.

While I'm not a fan of Peterson, he does have valid insights into certain things. From what I have seen of this video so far, I very much find myself appreciated his thoughts. They echo my own quite well (up to the 4 minute mark I have watched so far). Something he said here I wish to repeat, as it very much echos things I have said in different ways.

However, the people who wrote these stories thought more like dramatists think, more like Shakespeare thought. But that doesn't mean that there isn't truth in it. It just means that you have to be a little bit more sophisticated about your ideas of truth. And that's okay. There are truths to live by.
​

This is definitely a more sophisticated understanding of religious faith and biblical materials than what you find in literalist views of scripture, which are then directly echoed in atheistic notions of God. What are your thoughts to what he said above?

Yes I suppose atheistic notions of God do echo literalist views to an extent.
I think that the stories we have in the Bible are what God gave us. They are nuanced and sophisticated because of that and because God knows that humans are like that.
The big picture of the Bible and the overall story is something God put together and as Peterson said, that it is amazing that such a diverse collection of stories and writings, by so many people and over such a vast expanse of time could produce an overall story.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That’s fine. But when other people of other religions believe ‘by faith’ Christians condemn them as having been deceived by Satan.

So? That just confirms we actually believe what we say we believe.

 

[stvdv]

I think it was an appropriate reply to @stvdv 's comment in post 9 (even though stvdv sounded tongue in cheek)

stvdv said: IF you have seen Jesus THEN you have seen the Father. IF you have seen the Father THEN you have seen Jesus

Sai Baba is the Father, hence I have seen Jesus, hence I know

Yes, then it might be appropriate if my reply felt "tongue in cheek". My excuse for not being clear and gave you that feeling, and thanks for letting me know

I was sincere though, as Sai Baba did make quite some claims, bigger than Jesus even. And I have full Faith in Him. Therefore also in Jesus, as Sai Baba did declare that Jesus realized that He and the Father are one. So, no tongue in cheek from me whatsoever. Just my believe

 

[Windwalker]

Many people like yourself have spiritual experiences which put you in touch with God. No one can invalidate your experience but in many forums I come across people mostly Christians who tell me my spiritual experience is not valid and that I am deceived by Satan, all while admitting that they themselves believe by faith.

That's unfortunate. Christianity does not own God.

 

[stvdv]

I think some people take them too literal which then...

Causes them to miss the essence of what is being said which then...

Causes them not to see the bigger picture. And all those thoughts of yours are similar to what a Baha'i may say, but will they see the essence of your beliefs, or get to wrapped up in Baha'u'llah being the "only" truth for today? Meaning... Can they truly see and believe in the oneness and truth in all religions? If they reject Sai Baba, then I'd say they can't.

Spot on points you made:
1) Those who take Scripture too literal
2) Miss the essence what's being said
3) Fail to see the bigger picture
4) Fail to really see oneness they claim

Why do they "take their Scripture too literal" is an interesting next questing that pops up. Also why the same people usually, I think 80+%(#1), feel the need to declare their Religion to be the only true religion, and some even go as far to sit on God's Throne by declaring "Jesus is the only Salvation for all". This maybe amazes me the most

My idea why this happens:
0) They lack Love, compassion, empathy
1) They have some unsolved emotional fear
2) They never met a real life enlightened Teacher
3) They rely solely on Bible (=bookish) knowledge
4) They don't use common sense, discrimination etc.
5) They just "are" arrogant, hence their arrogant behavior

#1) Pew gave numbers that surprised me about Christians, glad I doublechecked. I don't see these reflect the Christians in my country (Holland) though, but the poll was done in America
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/202...18-39-believe-jesus-not-only-way-to-salvation
@stvdvRF

 

[CG Didymus]

The fruit of Baha'u'llah is to throw doubt on the Bible and it's obvious meaning. It says the Bible is true but then tells us about the places it is not true and the places it does not mean what it says.
Are you talking specifically about Baha'i?

Yes, I know that they think they have the correct, symbolic, interpretation of the Bible and NT, but to me, it's just a convenient way to say they believe in the Bible, but then interpret it in a way that makes them the true and correct religion.

I have my doubts about the stories in the Bible also, but I don't reinterpret them to fit my beliefs and then call Christians wrong in the way they interpret it. Your Christian beliefs maybe true. If so, the Baha'i Faith is not true. If the Baha'i Faith is true, then most every Christian sect has interpreted the Bible wrong, especially those that believe Jesus is God and that he rose physically from the dead.

 

[CG Didymus]

Spot on points you made:
1) Those who take Scripture too literal
2) Miss the essence what's being said
3) Fail to see the bigger picture
4) Fail to really see oneness they claim

Why do they "take their Scripture too literal" is an interesting next questing that pops up. Also why the same people usually, I think 80+%(#1), feel the need to declare their Religion to be the only true religion, and some even go as far to sit on God's Throne by declaring "Jesus is the only Salvation for all". This maybe amazes me the most

My idea why this happens:
0) They lack Love, compassion, empathy
1) They have some unsolved emotional fear
2) They never met a real life enlightened Teacher
3) They rely solely on Bible (=bookish) knowledge
4) They don't use common sense, discrimination etc.
5) They just "are" arrogant, hence their arrogant behavior

#1) Pew gave numbers that surprised me about Christians, glad I doublechecked. I don't see these reflect the Christians in my country (Holland) though, but the poll was done in America
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/202...18-39-believe-jesus-not-only-way-to-salvation
@stvdvRF

I tried to be a Christian and I also studied with Baha'is back in the 70's. If they truly took the essence of their religions the rest, the doctrines and dogma, wouldn't matter... maybe.... hopefully. But the "our religion is true, and the others are wrong" sure has a lot of appeal to people. To know, or at least to think they know, that they have the real, genuine truth and everybody else is wrong makes them special. God's chosen few.

 

[stvdv]

I tried to be a Christian and I also studied with Baha'is back in the 70's. If they truly took the essence of their religions the rest, the doctrines and dogma, wouldn't matter... maybe.... hopefully. But the "our religion is true, and the others are wrong" sure has a lot of appeal to people. To know, or at least to think they know, that they have the real, genuine truth and everybody else is wrong makes them special. God's chosen few.

Aha, I didn't know you tried Christianity and Bahai...I was wondering why you were so nice and respectful to me...I tried both too, and was heavily disappointed at exactly this "one Religion has to be the one and only true Religion", so had to discontinue those

But the "our religion is true, and the others are wrong" sure has a lot of appeal to people.

To know, or at least to think they know, that they have the real, genuine truth and everybody else is wrong makes them special. God's chosen few.

And that is evidence why these Religions create this problem

I was lucky reading the following phrase in one of the first Scriptures/books I read in my early quest being in India:
"The biggest obstacle in Spiritual life is Spiritual arrogance. Normal arrogance is detrimental, but Spiritual arrogance is 1000 times worse, as it is (by its definition) impossible to get rid of, even God is helpless here"

This phrase I took at heart and very serious, kind of my number 1 mantra, the Greatest Commandment. And this helped me to stay out of Spiritual arrogance. I do my utmost best to never belittle in any way other religions

Because you are right, and I have always been aware of that, that it's easy to give in to the idea "I am special, and more special than others"

Hence, when I had to read English literature, the novel "Animal Farm" was my number 1 favorite with:
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others" (If I remember correctly, it were the pigs that were most 'equal')

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's unfortunate. Christianity does not own God.

There are wonderful Christians who I deeply admire and respect. But isn’t it possible for a spiritual person with no religion or a Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim to all have found truth? Humanity is like a beautiful garden of different coloured flowers. Although we each are unique, we all get our warmth from the same sun and rain from the same sky. Yet we often oppose one another and treat each other as enemies just because we are different.

This is the age to get rid of once and for all the attitude that any race, religion or nationality is superior to another.

 

[RestlessSoul]

No. But by the same token Christians often condemn people who believe in other religions by calling them ‘deceived’ when they have had the same personal subjective experience Christians have had about Jesus.

So it’s ok and valid for a Christian to have a personal experience about Jesus to justify their belief but not a Muslim or Hindu or Baha’i? These people are all accused of being deceived by Satan. I believe this to be bias, discrimination and prejudice.

I don’t believe many modern Christians do this. I’ve certainly never heard any Christian say followers of other religions are ‘deceived by Satan’. But then, I don’t live in America and I don’t know many evangelicals.