christians - idols

[Mike182]

idk i thank paintings and reparations of things in heaven is fine, but what i don't understand is that Jesus thought that to have a pure faith in him you need not these things so why are these things important?... but the bible dose tell that idols are the representation of the devil, if praying to a photograph is ok then down the line other more grieves acts are also ok... almost like a gateway drug, because you rationalize praying to idols to ask or pray to god instead of having a pure faith in Christ and God to talk to them directly. This is the way it seems to me when i read the bible. I don’t want to put any one down it seem you rationalize one thing knowing that what you are doing is wrong. That’s what I am getting out of this debate I’m sorry if I see it wrong… if I do I thank more explanation is in order…

im sorry, your post has me a tad confused

i was mainly arguing that you can use an item (idol) to gain a picture of God, to enable you to more freely express love and prayer, and that this is not wrong.

note: wow, looking back at younger me........ my ideas and arguments have changed, but my basic beliefs are still as sound as ever

 

[Adstar]

Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Deuteronomy 4
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. 19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the LORD your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mike182]

Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

so if i am severly dyslexic, and i cannot even comprehend the idea of heaven or jesus, but i can comprehend this small wooden carving of jesus, and i have a picture showing how this wooden carving saved all of humanity, im in the wrong?

without the wooden carving i would not be able to comprehend the very basic message of christianity - im damned if i do and im damned if i don't........

for reference, i am not severly dyslexic, but there are people in the world who are, and according to these verses, would be damned either way. in my oppinion, that is not just.

 

[Mister_T]

so if i am severly dyslexic, and i cannot even comprehend the idea of heaven or jesus, but i can comprehend this small wooden carving of jesus, and i have a picture showing how this wooden carving saved all of humanity, im in the wrong?

I would say no. It's a symbol that represents good.

 

[Mike182]

I would say no. It's a symbol that represents good.

is that not an idol?

edit: i am assuming you meant god, or did you mean good?

 

[Mister_T]

is that not an idol?

If it is then the bible is an idol and any church that has the symbol of the cross is commiting idolatry. Do you pray to that carving? Or do you pray to God? The carving is a symbol. It represents something. Idols are false; like good luck charms.

No I meant good. God is the epitome of good right?

 

[Abram]

is that not an idol?

edit: i am assuming you meant god, or did you mean good?

Sounds like a idol to me?

In fact wasnt it written in the 10 Commandments not to make any image of stone or wood to be a image of God?

 

[Mister_T]

In fact wasnt it written in the 10 Commandments not to make any image of stone or wood to be a image of God?

The Bible is made out of paper. Paper is made from wood.......

 

[Abram]

The Bible is made out of paper. Paper is made from wood.......

Oh come on... We read from it to learn the word of God. We don't wear it around our neck, or bow to it. It's not a symbol of any sort.

 

[Mister_T]

Oh come on... We read from it to learn the word of God. We don't wear it around our neck, or bow to it. It's not a symbol of any sort.

You don't need a book to learn the word of God. You can learn the word of God by having a relationship with him. I'm just going by what you said. You said one of the 10 commandments says that we are not to make ANY image of him out of stone or wood. The Bible is made out of wood. The cross is a symbol that has been in every Christian church that I've visited. Is a Bible necessary to have a relationship with God? No. You can have a fruitful relationship with God through prayer and humbleness. Yet most Christians can't be separated from their Bible. It has become a crutch. One that they can't function without. It makes them feel good and gives them comfort. Like the golden calf.

Aside from Bible study, there is no difference between having a Bible and having a carving of Jesus. So if having a Bible is ok, than having a carving of Jesus is ok.

 

[Abram]

You don't need a book to learn the word of God. You can learn the word of God by having a relationship with him. I'm just going by what you said. You said one of the 10 commandments says that we are not to make ANY image of him out of stone or wood. The Bible is made out of wood. The cross is a symbol that has been in every Christian church that I've visited. Is a Bible necessary to have a relationship with God? No. You can have a fruitful relationship with God through prayer and humbleness. Yet most Christians can't be separated from their Bible. It has become a crutch. One that they can't function without. It makes them feel good and gives them comfort. Like the golden calf.

Aside from Bible study, there is no difference between having a Bible and having a carving of Jesus. So if having a Bible is ok, than having a carving of Jesus is ok.

I think the cross is a form of idolatry. If some one burns one or hangs it upside down some Christians would freak out. I don't care! I don't like the cross and what it symbolizes. See my post #18 for why. But this is my opinion and am not trying to change any ones views here.
There are many forms of idolatry we all face.
Personally I need a Bible to learn more about God and his personality and it opens my true self. I agree you don't need one to have a relationship with God. The OT is full of folks that walked with God with no Bible. I do think that it clears up truth and keeps you from forming your own God. If you reject it, I would say you don't have a clue who God is.
Isnt it great to have a place we can air our own opinions...

 

[Mike182]

I think the cross is a form of idolatry. If some one burns one or hangs it upside down some Christians would freak out. I don't care! I don't like the cross and what it symbolizes. See my post #18 for why. But this is my opinion and am not trying to change any ones views here.
There are many forms of idolatry we all face.
Personally I need a Bible to learn more about God and his personality and it opens my true self. I agree you don't need one to have a relationship with God. The OT is full of folks that walked with God with no Bible. I do think that it clears up truth and keeps you from forming your own God. If you reject it, I would say you don't have a clue who God is.
Isnt it great to have a place we can air our own opinions...

the part i highlighted is the very nautre of an idol

so why should they be forbidden?

If it is then the bible is an idol and any church that has the symbol of the cross is commiting idolatry. Do you pray to that carving? Or do you pray to God? The carving is a symbol. It represents something. Idols are false; like good luck charms.

No I meant good. God is the epitome of good right?

i think we can agree on this :bounce

 

[joeboonda]

Idolatry is worshipping anything other than God. Like worshipping cows, or statues of cows, but God wants us to love and worship Him. We tend to worship the creation which includes things we have or are or like to do, instead of or more than worshipping God. The epistles warn us of worshipping idols which represent other gods which the OT calls not gods at all, and the NT calls demons. Now symbols representing our faith are not idols. The cross is a symbol, not an idol. If you love God, and pray to Him, and worship Him, you are fine. If you are worshipping some other gods and praying to and bowing down to their statues, then you are committing idolatry. On another level it can mean putting other things in our lives before God, and we all do that to some degree at some times. But, the Holy Spirit shows us, and we can change as we grow in grace.

 

[Mister_T]

Idolatry is worshipping anything other than God. Like worshipping cows, or statues of cows, but God wants us to love and worship Him. We tend to worship the creation which includes things we have or are or like to do, instead of or more than worshipping God. The epistles warn us of worshipping idols which represent other gods which the OT calls not gods at all, and the NT calls demons. Now symbols representing our faith are not idols. The cross is a symbol, not an idol. If you love God, and pray to Him, and worship Him, you are fine. If you are worshipping some other gods and praying to and bowing down to their statues, then you are committing idolatry. On another level it can mean putting other things in our lives before God, and we all do that to some degree at some times. But, the Holy Spirit shows us, and we can change as we grow in grace.

This is the point I was trying to make. Nicely said :clap

 

[Mike182]

Idolatry is worshipping anything other than God. Like worshipping cows, or statues of cows, but God wants us to love and worship Him. We tend to worship the creation which includes things we have or are or like to do, instead of or more than worshipping God. The epistles warn us of worshipping idols which represent other gods which the OT calls not gods at all, and the NT calls demons. Now symbols representing our faith are not idols. The cross is a symbol, not an idol. If you love God, and pray to Him, and worship Him, you are fine. If you are worshipping some other gods and praying to and bowing down to their statues, then you are committing idolatry. On another level it can mean putting other things in our lives before God, and we all do that to some degree at some times. But, the Holy Spirit shows us, and we can change as we grow in grace.

i am in agreement with you, thanks!

 

[gnomon]

Could a certain level of patriotism fall under the category of idolatry? I believe there are some Christians who place Old Glory at an equal or greater level than Jesus. This was a basis for the JW's challenging in the early 20th century the concept that their children salute the flag. I've wondered why more Christian denominations never sided with them on this issue.

In general, however, beyond physical idols can a certain level of patriotism be considered idol worship?

 

[Abram]

Could a certain level of patriotism fall under the category of idolatry? I believe there are some Christians who place Old Glory at an equal or greater level than Jesus. This was a basis for the JW's challenging in the early 20th century the concept that their children salute the flag. I've wondered why more Christian denominations never sided with them on this issue.

In general, however, beyond physical idols can a certain level of patriotism be considered idol worship?

I'd agree with you here. I'm agreed with the JW's LDS on the whole cross thing.
As joeboonda said we all worship idols of some sort in our lives.
The Bible does say we are to support who ever our leaders regardless of their decisions are. He tells us he is always in control.

 

[Adstar]

so if i am severly dyslexic, and i cannot even comprehend the idea of heaven or jesus, but i can comprehend this small wooden carving of jesus, and i have a picture showing how this wooden carving saved all of humanity, im in the wrong?

without the wooden carving i would not be able to comprehend the very basic message of christianity - im damned if i do and im damned if i don't........

for reference, i am not severly dyslexic, but there are people in the world who are, and according to these verses, would be damned either way. in my oppinion, that is not just.

You have the free will to hold whatever opinion you wish to. As you do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Could a certain level of patriotism fall under the category of idolatry? I believe there are some Christians who place Old Glory at an equal or greater level than Jesus. This was a basis for the JW's challenging in the early 20th century the concept that their children salute the flag. I've wondered why more Christian denominations never sided with them on this issue.

In general, however, beyond physical idols can a certain level of patriotism be considered idol worship?

That has more to do with seeking to serve two masters. The King of Kings and worldly powers. Jesus said we cannot serve two masters and He was right. Many people have different ideas on the matter and seek to serve two masters.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mykola]

many christians believe that it is wrong to worship idols, is this really the case? i put this in the debate as it will most probably becoem one

The answer is yes, of course.
More on that: ALL Christians believe that it is wrong to worship idols, otherwise they're not Christians - by definition

But I would like to stress the point almost anyone somehow misses altogether: idolatry is worshiping just anyone or anything except God, - which includes mother of Jesus, 'saints', angels etc.
Even statues and icons put aside, - well, let's see... for instance, Orthodox pray to St.Nicholas... This is idolatry, period.