Christians: If God Loves Us and Wants Us to Join Him in Heaven, Why Didn't He Put Us There?

[MSizer]

I've never understood how god supposedly loves us and wants us to join him in his family in heaven, yet he put us on earth first with the capacity to fail, for which we could potentially loose the priviledge of joining him.

I doesn't make sense. Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That particular narrative would diverge from reality too much for anyone to believe.

 

[Riverwolf]

'Cause heaven is not a place.

 

[MSizer]

'Cause heaven is not a place.

That doesn't address the question of the OP. Even if you don't consider heaven a place literally, there's no doubt that most major christian sects teach that it is somehow something in which christians will be united with god. So to say that it's not a place doesn't address my question, unless you're arguing that heaven doesn't exist at all.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Msizer, I must ask why do you ask such a question? Something that amazes me about staunch atheists, is they persistently ask for answers to something, that no matter what the answer received is, it is never good enough.

So why do you really care? Or were you just out of things to talk about

 

[Metempsychosis]

Msizer,Good question.

 

[MSizer]

Msizer, I must ask why do you ask such a question? Something that amazes me about staunch atheists, is they persistently ask for answers to something, that no matter what the answer received is, it is never good enough.

So why do you really care? Or were you just out of things to talk about

I want to know whether I've missed the point all this time, or whether those who espouse the Belief I'm questionning simply haven't thought it through. It seems to me that either the Believers have missed that detail (which seems to me to be a huge one) or that I've misunderstood something. My intention is to either challenge Believers or correct my misinformed understanding of the idea. Either way I'll be satisfied with the outcome. The only answers I don't want to see are the ones like "we can't know what god has in mind". I find those ones pure cop outs.

I'm not looking to offend anyone, just challenge people to think. 8^)

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I want to know whether I've missed the point all this time, or whether those who espouse the Belief I'm questionning simply haven't thought it through. It seems to me that either the Believers have missed that detail (which seems to me to be a huge one) or that I've misunderstood something. My intention is to either challenge Believers or correct my misinformed understanding of the idea. Either way I'll be satisfied with the outcome. The only answers I don't want to see are the ones like "we can't know what god has in mind". I find those ones pure cop outs.

I'm not looking to offend anyone, just challenge people to think. 8^)

Very well, than I will ask you to explain to me from what experience you have, what does the bible say about your question?

 

[MSizer]

Very well, than I will ask you to explain to me from what experience you have, what does the bible say about your question?

You're forcing me to think back to my catholic school days. Actually, I've pretty much laid it out in the question. I remember being told that we are all part of god's family, and we'll all join each other for eternity in heaven, so long as we don't upset god in such a way as to fail to merit resurrection into heaven. Apparently god loves us too, and wants us to succeed in joining him there. So I don't get it. Have I missed something? All I can cite to back my thoughts is the nicene creed, which states that one who states the creed believes in the literal resurrection of the body, and also in Heaven literally as well.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You're forcing me to think back to my catholic school days. Actually, I've pretty much laid it out in the question. I remember being told that we are all part of god's family, and we'll all join each other for eternity in heaven, so long as we don't upset god in such a way as to fail to merit resurrection into heaven. Apparently god loves us too, and wants us to succeed in joining him there. So I don't get it. Have I missed something?

Yes quite a bit. And might I say, from dialoging with you in the past couple months I have gotten to know you better, I think you studying the bible on your own with your own thoughts would possibly scare you a bit.

If I may, it seems you are applying an ill-informed understanding of what is written throughout the bible to this topic and perhaps most topics you present about the bible, and in doing so, you are only robbing yourself of the good pleasure to be derived from the book.

You are way too smart to dismiss such a treasure of knowledge, and dilute it with the misunderstandings that persist in organized religions and adopt them as your own understanding. Does that make sense?

 

[MSizer]

Well, I think I see what you're saying, but my scepticism is not only for the claims of religious people en masse, but also for any divinity at all. I don't recognize any diety (not because I choose not to, but becuase that's just what happens when I think about it) and also the abrahamic scriptures seem just like scribblings of mortal men to me, just as a comic books and grade school math homework.

 

[Storm]

Maybe, like any good parent, He wants us to earn our own way.

Or maybe not.

 

[MSizer]

Maybe, like any good parent, He wants us to earn our own way.

Or maybe not.

But isn't that completely unnecessary? The concept of "earning our way" only exists because of this earthly life. God could have skipped the whole thing and went right to the finish line to make things the way he supposedly wants them. If he'd just made things the way he supposedly wants them in the first place, there would be no need to earn anything.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Well, I think I see what you're saying, but my scepticism is not only for the claims of religious people en masse, but also for any divinity at all. I don't recognize any diety (not because I choose not to, but becuase that's just what happens when I think about it) and also the abrahamic scriptures seem just like scribblings of mortal men to me, just as a comic books and grade school math homework.

Sorry Msizer, maybe I am misreading what little I know about you, but that explanation seems beneath you.
to reduce the writings in the bible to comic books and grade school material somehow shows more of how little you have possibly spent in the bible. I am being judgmental, but that is just how it seems.

there are many secularist that find great wisdom and comfort in teachings from the bible, without believing in God.

 

[Storm]

But isn't that completely unnecessary? The concept of "earning our way" only exists because of this earthly life. God could have skipped the whole thing and went right to the finish line to make things the way he supposedly wants them. If he'd just made things the way he supposedly wants them in the first place, there would be no need to earn anything.

It's deja vu all over again!

Some time ago, Beaudreaux and I had this conversation. It basically boils down to whether you think God can provide meaning without context, but I'm skipping ahead.

My solution to the puzzle is that God wants us to value our salvation, and we can't do that if we don't know about other possibilities.

It should be noted that it's an entirely intellectual puzzle to me, and I believe none of it.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I've never understood how god supposedly loves us and wants us to join him in his family in heaven, yet he put us on earth first with the capacity to fail, for which we could potentially loose the priviledge of joining him.

I doesn't make sense. Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

So, now that my little tirade is over, I will try to answer your question in a philosophical way.

If it can be said that each human perceives reality in either a little bit different way or in some case drastically different ways from the person next to them, we can use that understanding to put our own current perspective in check.

If you are seeking truth, and if there is a truth to be found, keep trying on the glasses of those available to you. It may be that your very own set of glasses is what provides peace of mind for you, but if you do not have peace of mind, if you have not found the truth you are looking for don't resist those glasses people offer you to try own.

Your question can have many many answers, because each person's view is different from the next person's. So we must eventually ask ourselves, is it the people's view I am after, or the truth if there be one? Since we are discussing Christianity, there is only one option, the bible. If the truth can not be extracted from the source, it is possible there is no truth. Which is why I asked do you know what the bible says about the topic, and it is clear you don't.

It is also clear, I am dancing around your OP

Let me ask you this, why do you not ask such questions and then search the bible for an answer? Personally I don't mind quoting scripture to you, but it just seems strange you don't put on your swim suit and just dive into the bible with your questions. If you need help, than ask me. Check my suggestions, and see if they make sense for you with what you read on your own.

Am I a good dancer?

 

[MSizer]

Sorry Msizer, maybe I am misreading what little I know about you, but that explanation seems beneath you.
to reduce the writings in the bible to comic books and grade school material somehow shows more of how little you have possibly spent in the bible. I am being judgmental, but that is just how it seems.

there are many secularist that find great wisdom and comfort in teachings from the bible, without believing in God.

I'm not saying that the bible is of no more value than a comic book. Of course it contains writing which, with sufficient reflection, can induce wisdom. I don't deny that at all. But the same can be said for many philispophical works. In fact IMO, there are many philisophical writings which are far more valuable than any religious text I've encountered at inspiring wisdom.

My point is that I believe the bible is purely man made. And, since it was written before psychology, the social sciences and neurology were available, it's bound to be (since it's not divine IMO) at best oudated, if not flat out mistaken on matters of human nature.

Sure one could spend time reflecting on biblical passages and finding wisdom in the words, but I find I can get a much more correct view of human nature from Marc Hauser than the gospel of Mark, since Marc Hauser knows a lot more about the human mental condition than the cousin of Barnabas likely did.

 

[MSizer]

It's deja vu all over again!

Some time ago, Beaudreaux and I had this conversation. It basically boils down to whether you think God can provide meaning without context, but I'm skipping ahead.

My solution to the puzzle is that God wants us to value our salvation, and we can't do that if we don't know about other possibilities.

It should be noted that it's an entirely intellectual puzzle to me, and I believe none of it.

OK, so I recognize that it's just an intellectual exercise for you (as it is for me) but then even so, how does it make sense that god needed us to feel the opposite first in order to appreciate his gift of life in heaven? It seems to me that it boils down to the simple fact that if he had the power to create whatever he wanted, it doesn't make sense that he would do anytning else but. And, to try to rationalize why he wouldn't have just done what he wanted in the first place is pure mental gymnastics which avoid the bottom line IMO.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Sure one could spend time reflecting on biblical passages and finding wisdom in the words

which you apparently have not done,

but I find I can get a much more correct view of human nature from Marc Hauser than the gospel of Mark, since Marc Hauser knows a lot more about the human mental condition than the cousin of Barnabas likely did.

It may just be that the knowledge you receive from Mark Hauser is the knowledge you are looking for. I see no need to use that as an occasion to dismiss other knowledge, unless of course it does prove other "knowledge" incorrect.

However, I am not sure from your own testimony you are in a position to state whether or not something from the bible is incorrect or not. We can all abstract statements from any book and make it incorrect or correct, depending on our agenda.

I think it just boils down to what knowledge you are looking for. We seek out what interests us until we find it. The same goes for the bible, there are thing within it, that are unique to it, and you won't find them anywhere else. So if you are not looking for them, they will remain hidden inside, I suppose.

All in all, I think you are honest and pure with intention, and I wish you well in your search!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Msizer, I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my ballet on post 16