Christians in America

[blackout]

Frankly, if I had to listen to 15 minutes of Christmas carols while I stood in line at the bank, I'd probably start thinking about finding another bank. If I had to listen to that all day in my own workplace, I'd probably start looking for another job.

This isn't because of the religious nature of the songs, though... I'd feel the same if you were pumping Celine Dion's greatest hits into the place all day long. Way too many Christmas songs and carols are deeply annoying and can't stand up to even one listening... never mind hearing them every day from Thanksgiving to Christmas.

And I know observant Christians who feel the same way - for many people, carols just get annoying. A bank deciding not to play them might not be so much about bowing to accommodationalism as it is about not driving their customer base away to competitors.

UGH. I agree completely.

On the up side, christmas music
is just one more thing that keeps me out of the stores
for the two straight months
of "you have to buy things for people" marketing.

Still, I think the music is even more annoying
than the pressure to buy stuff.
My kids already know there's no santa,
and I have no money.
The abysmally horrendous music however
requires headphones and an MP3 player
for every outing, including food shopping
which cannot be avoided.

It would be just as awful for me
if I had to shop to country music.
*cringes*

 

[AxisMundi]

In that case, it's the event and several teams.

No government agencies are listed as series or season sponsors on the NASCAR web site, but I imagine that NASCAR probably gets a cut of the event sponsorship money. They definitely get a cut of team sponsorships in the form of series entry fees paid to NASCAR by the teams.

Still a private venue, and the owners of that venue throwing prayers around.

I see nothing that would overstep the Establishment Clause.

These events are for recruitment purposes, yes?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Still a private venue, and the owners of that venue throwing prayers around.

I see nothing that would overstep the Establishment Clause.

Typically, it's the race organizer that specifies the event schedule, not the track owner. Now... in this case, the track owner is ISC, and they may be the organizer as well as the track owner (or the organizer may be NASCAR itself, or it may be some joint venture between the two companies), but whatever arrangement they have, I can't imagine a situation where the entity setting the schedule and the pre-race program of events isn't the same one that gets the Air National Guard's cheque.

In most (all?) other situations, a government contractor is under the same obligations as the government itself. In this case, there's a contract for services made between a private entity and a branch of the government, so why wouldn't the normal requirements be in effect?

These events are for recruitment purposes, yes?

Generally, yes... though I'm not sure where you're going with this.

 

[MissAlice]

UGH. I agree completely.

On the up side, christmas music
is just one more thing that keeps me out of the stores
for the two straight months
of "you have to buy things for people" marketing.

Still, I think the music is even more annoying
than the pressure to buy stuff.
My kids already know there's no santa,
and I have no money.
The abysmally horrendous music however
requires headphones and an MP3 player
for every outing, including food shopping
which cannot be avoided.

It would be just as awful for me
if I had to shop to country music.
*cringes*

Our famiy decided two years ago we wouldn't be spending any money on eachother.

Still many of us who aren't religious love to celebrate the pagan in those holidays with colors and...Xmas trees with made up cards and artwork. It is still a depressing holiday since it is around December when everything gets so dark, cold and gloomy

 

[Wotan]

" It is still a depressing holiday since it is around December when everything gets so dark, cold and gloomy "
Not in Florida!

 

[T-Dawg]

" It is still a depressing holiday since it is around December when everything gets so dark, cold and gloomy "
Not in Florida!

Ugh, I remember being in Florida, it was so terrible... are you telling me that it doesn't snow there even in DECEMBER?!? How can anyone stand living in that sunny, rainy, overheated tropical hellhole? :cover:

They even had PALM TREES at the place I was in... that was the first time I had ever seen a palm tree... it never occurred to me before then that they actually existed in real life.


Fortunately, up here, it starts snowing in like mid-late-October and keeps going for several months (I remember it snowing as I left for Spring Break ).

 

[AxisMundi]

Typically, it's the race organizer that specifies the event schedule, not the track owner. Now... in this case, the track owner is ISC, and they may be the organizer as well as the track owner (or the organizer may be NASCAR itself, or it may be some joint venture between the two companies), but whatever arrangement they have, I can't imagine a situation where the entity setting the schedule and the pre-race program of events isn't the same one that gets the Air National Guard's cheque.

In most (all?) other situations, a government contractor is under the same obligations as the government itself. In this case, there's a contract for services made between a private entity and a branch of the government, so why wouldn't the normal requirements be in effect?

In your argument, then, the vendor is absolutely incorrect in having prayers recited.

However, this isn't a government venue, nor is the g'ment renting said venue. Drivers and patrons both are still the responsibility of said contractor.

Generally, yes... though I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Just seeking clarification as to why the go'ment would be sponsering such an event. I am a fiscal conservative.

 

[Smoke]

I think it's sad that where I work, we are not allowed to play Christmas music. I think that choice should be left up to the business owners - not the HR department. I mean, we are not even allowed to play SECULAR Christmas music. RIDICULOUS! It's so odd that even our customers who come in at Christmas walk in and say, "Wow, it's quiet in here - where's the music?"

What's really odd is that your HR department isn't accountable to the owners of the bank. If that's really the case.

I think it's sad when employees are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas!" and yet they can say, "Oh my god, I had a great time last night!" all they want.

I think it's sad when employees feel they should be paid to represent themselves rather than their employer.

 

[Smoke]

Ugh, I remember being in Florida, it was so terrible... are you telling me that it doesn't snow there even in DECEMBER?!? How can anyone stand living in that sunny, rainy, overheated tropical hellhole? :cover:

Florida is my native state, and I love it. It would be a paradise if it weren't for the alligators and the bugs and the hurricanes and the people.

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

Thing is - the bank's decision has NOTHING to do with what you're suggesting, and everything to do with political correctness. We live in a small, southern town - where most people, believe it or not, like Christmas music. Without exception, our staff WANTS to play Christmas music during the season. We simply can't because of a corporate decision. I want to assure you that if our customers knew that our corporate office had BANNED Christmas music, a good share of them would probably change banks just on principle. I do live in the bible belt.

*holds finger Mr. Burns styles*..Yes yeeeeees the War on Christmas proceeds according to plan!

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Ugh, I remember being in Florida, it was so terrible... are you telling me that it doesn't snow there even in DECEMBER?!? How can anyone stand living in that sunny, rainy, overheated tropical hellhole? :cover:

They even had PALM TREES at the place I was in... that was the first time I had ever seen a palm tree... it never occurred to me before then that they actually existed in real life.


Fortunately, up here, it starts snowing in like mid-late-October and keeps going for several months (I remember it snowing as I left for Spring Break ).

Where do you live? I just moved to New Hampshire from Florida. Man did I hate that place. NH is my homestate though. I lived in Florida for like 10 years

 

[T-Dawg]

Where do you live? I just moved to New Hampshire from Florida. Man did I hate that place. NH is my homestate though. I lived in Florida for like 10 years

I live roughly in the middle section of America. The temperature here is nice in the last 2/3s or so of fall (it snows ), cold in the winter (it snows more ), nice for the first half of spring (it still snows occasionally up into April ), and far too hot in the summer. Not telling the state, people could use it to stalk me .

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In your argument, then, the vendor is absolutely incorrect in having prayers recited.

However, this isn't a government venue, nor is the g'ment renting said venue. Drivers and patrons both are still the responsibility of said contractor.

No, the government isn't renting the venue (not directly, anyhow, but the venue could probably be seen as a subcontractor to the event promoter/organizer in this whole relationship). What the government is doing is purchasing services: specialized advertising and promotion, specifically. These services apparently come packaged with a religious message... one that would be within the power of the government agency to not include, IMO.

 

[Kathryn]

Wait - so your company decided on its own not to have Christmas music?

Then what was with all that stuff before about business owners not being allowed to do what they want? That made it sound like you were talking about some sort of requirement imposed on your bank by the government.

Yes, middle management at our very large company decided this. My issue is not with their RIGHT to determine this - of course they have that right.

My issue is the REASONING behind it. The decision was made by HR and the legal department because they were AFRAID that someone, somewhere, would file a lawsuit over it. Not necessarily a customer, but perhaps even an employee who felt that it would create a "hostile work environment."

I think that it is a ridiculously litigous environment that causes those sorts of fears.

 

[Kathryn]

It is still a depressing holiday since it is around December when everything gets so dark, cold and gloomy

Not here in Texas! We have fabulous winters - usually pretty sunny, highs in the 40's and 50's. Just nippy enough to break out the sweaters and wear a beautiful winter coat in the evenings.

As for Christmas being depressing - sorry you feel that way. Many people don't though.

I agree that there is some horrible Christmas music out there - but there's also some terrific Christmas music, and that's the type I collect and enjoy listening to during that special season. Here's my absolute favorite Christmas album:



Can't wait to break it out again this year...

 

[Duck]

Our famiy decided two years ago we wouldn't be spending any money on eachother.

Still many of us who aren't religious love to celebrate the pagan in those holidays with colors and...Xmas trees with made up cards and artwork. It is still a depressing holiday since it is around December when everything gets so dark, cold and gloomy

Then celebrate the Solstice, which is the turning from increasing darkness to increasing light...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, middle management at our very large company decided this. My issue is not with their RIGHT to determine this - of course they have that right.

My issue is the REASONING behind it. The decision was made by HR and the legal department because they were AFRAID that someone, somewhere, would file a lawsuit over it. Not necessarily a customer, but perhaps even an employee who felt that it would create a "hostile work environment."

I think that it is a ridiculously litigous environment that causes those sorts of fears.

Then maybe that should be the focus of your anger, not secularism. I know that defending against even an unfounded lawsuit can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars... but in that case, the problem isn't with whatever law is used as the (false) basis for the claim; it's with the legal climate for tort cases generally.

 

[Luminous]

Ugh, I remember being in Florida, it was so terrible... are you telling me that it doesn't snow there even in DECEMBER?!? How can anyone stand living in that sunny, rainy, overheated tropical hellhole? :cover:

because its sunny and tropical!!!
plus, we have airconditioning.

 

[AxisMundi]

No, the government isn't renting the venue (not directly, anyhow, but the venue could probably be seen as a subcontractor to the event promoter/organizer in this whole relationship). What the government is doing is purchasing services: specialized advertising and promotion, specifically. These services apparently come packaged with a religious message... one that would be within the power of the government agency to not include, IMO.

To be quite frank, I only know enough about the situation to make educated guesses.

But from what you describe, I see nothing that might oever-step the Establishment Clause.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To be quite frank, I only know enough about the situation to make educated guesses.

But from what you describe, I see nothing that might oever-step the Establishment Clause.

How about this scenario instead:

The Air Guard contracts with a billboard company. The deal is that, for a fee, the company will create a design and then display it on a particular billboard for two months.

The Air Guard gives the company its specs for the graphic design. The company does up a design and sends a proof to the Air Guard for approval. It meets all their specs, but also has a banner across the bottom that says "Praise Jesus!" The Air Guard looks over the proof, says, "yep, that's fine!" and the company puts the ad up.

In that case, would the establishment clause have been broken?

If yes, then why not for the race? In both cases, the governmental agency would have had the ability to approve or deny a product that included a religious message (and one that was specific to a single religion, to boot).