Christians in politics, what say you regarding this?

[Deeje]

False, as God is a "Boss", Jesus is a "Boss" to Christians, and the apostles were "Bosses" to the Christian community.

You misunderstand....there were no human "bosses" in Christianity....certainly none with the same authority as the High Priests in Judaism. There were "overseers" to keep God's 'family' spiritually and morally "clean" and to judge those inside the congregations.

God and Jesus are the only ones who have absolute authority over us. Were their teachings enforceable? Yes they were, but the authority bestowed on their appointed shepherds was backed up by holy spirit.

In Judaism, God's laws were physically enforceable, but in Christianity, the worst that could happen is that you were shown the door and the congregation was not to fellowship with you.

But Jesus the man was never authoritarian in that he never brought punishment on anyone who went against his teachings. He offered his teachings to all and accepted those who were dedicated to the doing of God's will in their lives. Their choice.

At no point in time with Jesus' ministry did he ever say or suggest that Christianity was a "do your own thing" type of relationship. Jesus "taught with authority", so I do think it's very clear that he was "Boss" over this community, and that it was God, the ultimate "Boss", that he took direction from. Since the NT did not exist at first, it was these "Bosses" that people were guided by, and that same exact paradigm was followed by the church as it went through decade after decade and century after century.

Where did I ever suggest "that Christianity was a do your own thing type of relationship?" No Christian was free to do their own thing or to reinterpret Christ's teachings to suit themselves....but neither were they free to ignore Christ's teachings or to pick and choose what they would do, as opposed to what they felt free to ignore.

"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 10-11)

Those who have authority in the congregation do so as overseers or shepherds, not as heavy handed 'police'. If there is unrepentant sin in the congregation, it will be addressed as fairly as is humanly possible and appropriate measures taken to ensure that there are no "unclean" influences in the congregation...on the basis that "a little leaven ferments the whole lump".

The apostle Paul wrote.....
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

You will notice that judging those "inside" the congregations was part of the role of appointed shepherds. They had the power to 'excommunicate' any member who was found in breach of Christ's teachings and who refused to repent.

And there also is "oversight" in a democratic country to try and check corruption. And can be corruption in a religious community as well, btw-- just ask my one set of former JW neighbors that left.

What corruption can you check if you yourself are corrupted? How does a corrupt system ruled by the devil ever police itself? Democracy is not Theocracy (Though some people seem to think that they are one and the same)

Corruption can also be seen in those who find fault with the way things are done, or in what is taught, and they sometimes proudly rebel when there is an attempt to correct them. Those who leave are free to do so......but we are also free to have nothing more to do with them, especially if they are publicly slandering the whole brotherhood because they were disciplined over some issue and have their noses out of joint. I don't know the issue over which your neighbors chose to leave, but if they are bad mouthing our brotherhood over something that happened to them personally, it is not necessarily a reflection on the whole organization. How does your country treat political defectors? They are guilty of treason are they not? Why should we feel any different about spiritual defectors? Their issues are their issues, and they would most likely have been handled the same way in any congregation. Those who feel as if an injustice has been done, humbly commit it to God and allow him to handle it (confident that he will rectify things in his own due time.) They don't walk off in a huff and then isolate themselves from everyone they used to call a "brother". That is an act of pride, not humility.

 

[Deeje]

The "building the fence around the Torah" was done in order to try and protect the Law because it's human nature to try and "fudge" on laws, with they be religious or secular.

They fudged them anyway. When the Pharisees complained that Jesus disciples did not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.

"In reply he said to them: “Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Let the one who speaks abusively of his father or mother be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have that could benefit you is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he need not honor his father at all.’ So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

The "fence" was not doing a good job of protecting the Torah at all, it just gave the Pharisees more room to nit-pick the law as an excuse to throw their weight around. They were teaching their own commands, not God’s. Jesus said that they were hypocrites of the worst order. Was he lying?

False, as there are quite a few Laws given to Moses that deal with guidelines that are to be followed by whomever is king, and they are found in Torah: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

"Nearly 400 years from the time of the Exodus and over 800 years from the making of God’s covenant with Abraham, the Israelites requested a human king to lead them, even as the other nations had human monarchs. Their request constituted a rejection of Jehovah’s own kingship over them. (1Samuel 8:4-8) True, the people properly expected a kingdom to be established by God in harmony with his promise to Abraham and to Jacob, already cited. They had further basis for such hope in Jacob’s deathbed prophecy concerning Judah (Genesis 49:8-10), in Jehovah’s words to Israel after the Exodus (Exodus 19:3-6), in the terms of the Law covenant (Deuteronomy 17:14, 15), and even in part of the message God caused the prophet Balaam to speak (Numbers 24:2-7, 17). Samuel’s faithful mother Hannah expressed this hope in prayer. (1Samuel 2:7-10) Nevertheless, Jehovah had not fully revealed his “sacred secret” regarding the Kingdom and had not indicated when his due time for its establishment would arrive nor what the structure and composition of that government would be—whether it would be earthly or heavenly. It was therefore presumptuous on the part of the people now to demand a human king."
(Excerpt from Kingdom of God — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)

Read 1Samuel 8:9-22 for yourself. Israel displayed a lack of faith in God’s ability to protect, guide, and provide for them, as a nation or as individuals. (1Samuel 8:4-8) The people’s motive was wrong; yet Jehovah granted their request, not for their sake primarily but to accomplish his own good purpose in the progressive revelation of the “sacred secret” of his future Kingdom by the “seed.” Human kingship would bring its problems and expense for Israel, however, and Jehovah laid the facts before the people. They could not say that they weren't warned. And yes, he made laws for those kings....why wouldn't he? Remember that Israel was God's nation....he owned them and had the total say over what they did because they accepted him, of their own free will, as their Sovereign.

If you actually believe in what you're saying, then what you would logically be in favor of would be "anarchy", and I think history well shows that anarchy is unstable, usually resulting in being replaced by an authoritarian system.

Really metis....? Is that what I am saying....would I say that? Please don't put words in my mouth.

What relationship did literal shepherds have towards the sheep they were assigned to care for? Please adjust your thinking to reflect that relationship of human 'shepherds' to God's human 'sheep'. They are the precious possessions of their owner. (Hebrews 13:17) The shepherds have a role, but the sheep do too.

What you keep on missing is the very simple fact what even an elementary Sunday School child well knows, and that is that in the OT God "anointed" kings, such as David, and He also has rules for kings. What that leaves us with is that either God is a scatterbrained idiot who can't make up his mind or that your depiction of God, vis-a-vis politics, is seriously flawed, and I would suggest that it's the latter.

Please read the previous scriptures regarding the reason why Israel had human kings in the first place.

The political rulership of this world is under the devil's influence. (1 John 5:19) It reflects everything the devil uses to distract and to mislead people. (1 John 2:15-17) Why do you think Jesus told us to be NO PART of it? (John 15:18-21)

I know someone's view is 'seriously flawed' but I do not believe it is mine. God is not a' scatterbrained idiot' and still we are to be no part of what the world is promoting. You can be as much a part of it as you please.

We do not agree again......."never the twain shall meet"....it is nothing new.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Amazing how the word Christian can change a thread which is mostly political, can change into a discussion on theology.

 

[metis]

You misunderstand....there were no human "bosses" in Christianity....certainly none with the same authority as the High Priests in Judaism. There were "overseers" to keep God's 'family' spiritually and morally "clean" and to judge those inside the congregations.

A "Boss" gives direction as to what one should or must do, whereas an "overseer" does not necessarily have that power of enforcement. God and Jesus clearly were/are "Bosses", not just "overseers", because they had the ultimate enforcement power.

God and Jesus are the only ones who have absolute authority over us. Were their teachings enforceable? Yes they were, but the authority bestowed on their appointed shepherds was backed up by holy spirit.

Yes, and the process is still applicable today with their appointees and their appointees..., which was the "mark" of the "true church" that Jesus said he would guide until the end of time. But you really don't believe that since you've repeatedly claim that the church fell into "apostasy", supposedly leaving it up to you JW's to somehow miraculously appear many centuries later to try and straighten everyone else out-- as if that makes any sense whatsoever.

But Jesus the man was never authoritarian in that he never brought punishment on anyone who went against his teachings.

Because God would do that for him-- it's in your Bible.

Where did I ever suggest "that Christianity was a do your own thing type of relationship?"

Because you keep claiming that there were no "bosses" in the church. But the apostles demanded that the flock follow their teachings, thus not just a "do your own thingy". As Paul said, the church must be of "one body", not thousands of different denominations each claiming they're their the "true church".

You will notice that judging those "inside" the congregations was part of the role of appointed shepherds. They had the power to 'excommunicate' any member who was found in breach of Christ's teachings and who refused to repent.

Exactly, and the apostles passed that power down to their appointees-- a process that still is in effect today.

What corruption can you check if you yourself are corrupted? How does a corrupt system ruled by the devil ever police itself? Democracy is not Theocracy

That is a terribly misguided stereotype as governments, including those that form your JW leadership, are not all the same

They fudged them anyway. When the Pharisees complained that Jesus disciples did not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.

A teaching is not always followed by all, so if we use your "logic", then all churches and kingdom halls must be Satanic as well since some members don't always follow the rules.

The "fence" was not doing a good job of protecting the Torah at all, it just gave the Pharisees more room to nit-pick the law as an excuse to throw their weight around.

And how could you possibly know that? Oh yes, I'm sure your JW leaders convinced you of that, so now you're here to parrot what they have literally brainwashed you to believe. Again, your and their use of stereotypes is just so immoral, but for some reason, you can't see it.

Read 1Samuel 8:9-22 for yourself.

I've read it many times, Deeje, but what you have shown us time and time again is that you only believe in the scriptures that your JW leaders tell you is acceptable to believe.

I know someone's view is 'seriously flawed' but I do not believe it is mine. God is not a' scatterbrained idiot' and still we are to be no part of what the world is promoting.

Again, you conflate the point, namely as to why God would have Laws as found in Torah that demand how kings must behave, and also how God anointed various kings, and yet you come back with the stereotyped nonsense that all governments are controlled by Satan. You can't see your inconsistency here, so you avoid the question and just continue on with your use of stereotypes.
Again, all you continue to do is to parrot the JW leaders while at the same time ignoring or pooh-poohing away what is found right smack dab in your very own Bible. Between what's found in your Bible versus what your JW leaders tell you to believe, you've chosen the latter. God demanded that kings follow a certain pattern as found in Torah, and yet you just ignore the rather obvious implication of that.

 

[metis]

Amazing how the word Christian can change a thread which is mostly political, can change into a discussion on theology.

Well, the OP actually involves both political and theological aspects, but I agree that it's probably best for me to just get back closer to that, so thanks for the heads-up.

 

[Deeje]

A "Boss" gives direction as to what one should or must do, whereas an "overseer" does not necessarily have that power of enforcement. God and Jesus clearly were/are "Bosses", not just "overseers", because they had the ultimate enforcement power.

There seems to be some kind of block in your comprehension of the scriptures that I have provided to back up what I have said. I have explained the difference in authority between God and his son and the authority of his appointed shepherds. There are the "bosses" (Jesus and his God and Father) and the human overseers or shepherds appointed by them to care for the "sheep". The shepherds had positions of responsibility...NOT power.

The one thing Jesus stressed among his own apostles when they repeatedly argued among themselves about who was the greatest.....was their equality. There was no one greater than the others. (Mark 9:33-37; 10:37, 41-45; Luke 22:24-27) Humility was to place each one on the level of a servant, not a master. Jesus went so far as to wash the feet of his apostles to demonstrate his point. Unless you acknowledge this differentiation, then you will continue to argue against a strawman.

Yes, and the process is still applicable today with their appointees and their appointees..., which was the "mark" of the "true church" that Jesus said he would guide until the end of time.

He also said that the mark of true Christianity was "love among yourselves" (John 13:334-35) Tell me what churches in Christendom demonstrate this quality when their nations go to war? In the two World Wars, Catholic killed Catholic and Protestant killed Protestant in complete disregard for their spiritual "brothers" because politics separated them and divided their loyalties. If your nation went to war with another nation where that same situation existed, tell me how many would obey Christ instead of their government? (Acts 5:29)

Jesus also told his disciples to 'love their enemies' and to 'pray for those who persecute them'. (Matthew 5:44-45)
Again, do you see politically involved Christians following that directive?

In telling his disciples that he would be "with" them in the work that he assigned, right to the end of this system of things, he commanded them to....."Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Matthew 28:19-20)

How did Jesus teach his disciples to preach? He said...."Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."

The word "search" in Greek is "exetazō", it means more than sitting in a building waiting for people to come to you.
A "search" implies that something, or someone is "lost". Jesus was sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
How did he search for them?
If you were lost, how would you like rescuers to "search" for you? Jesus gave parables on this subject....the lost sheep and the lost coin. (Luke 15:3-7; 8-10) No effort was spared to find what was lost. (Acts 5:42; 20:20)

But you really don't believe that since you've repeatedly claim that the church fell into "apostasy", supposedly leaving it up to you JW's to somehow miraculously appear many centuries later to try and straighten everyone else out-- as if that makes any sense whatsoever.

You really don't listen, do you? It was not me who claimed that, it was Jesus and his own apostles who foretold it. The 'church' would follow the same path that Judaism did. Men would gain power....the power would corrupt them...and they would lead the people into apostasy right along with them. Judaism and Christendom are mirror images of one another. This is because human nature does not change.

Now if that was prophesied to happen, why do you deny that it did? The church's own conduct is confirmation that it apostatized not very long after Jesus left the earthly scene.
The apostle Paul said: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things.” The one God of Judaism became the 'twisted' three-headed god of Christendom. Mary, the mother of Jesus then became "Mary, the mother of God". Sheol became a torture chamber instead of the place where the dead are buried to "rest in peace".
Addressing fellow Christians, Peter wrote: “There will also be false teachers among you.” So from where do false teachers come? They would arise from within the Christian congregation. (Read Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Peter 2:1-3.)

 

[Deeje]

Because God would do that for him-- it's in your Bible.

Actually God isn't going to do it for him......Jesus will come in a visible way with an angelic army and bring the whole human race to an accounting.

“It is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8)

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left." (Matthew 25:31-33)

Who are the sheep and who are the goats metis? The sheep get saved...the goats get destroyed. (Matthew 25:34; 41) We don't have the opportunity to change from a 'goat' to a 'sheep' at the last moment. When Jesus arrives to do his judging, then all fates are sealed. Even those who imagine that they are Christians in good standing, will not escape Jesus' denunciation. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Because you keep claiming that there were no "bosses" in the church. But the apostles demanded that the flock follow their teachings, thus not just a "do your own thingy". As Paul said, the church must be of "one body", not thousands of different denominations each claiming they're their the "true church".

If there are "bosses" in the church, then you are in the wrong building.

The apostles did not demand any more than Jesus did. They taught what Jesus taught and if anyone wanted to change those teachings, or add to them, they were shown the door....that is where "the weeping and gnashing of teeth" takes place. Like Adam and Eve were evicted from paradise because of disobedience...the unrepentant ones were kicked out of the congregation because of disobedience to Jesus' teachings. The shepherds are authorized to judge 'within' God's spiritual family. That doesn't make them the boss...they are simply acting as the "Boss's" representatives.

Exactly, and the apostles passed that power down to their appointees-- a process that still is in effect today.

There is no apostolic succession among my brotherhood. Those anointed with God's spirit direct His organization today as we are living in "the time of the end".....a "faithful and wise slave" who are appointed by the Master to "feed" their fellow slaves. (Matthew 24:45)

I don't see men in strange clothing and funny hats sitting on thrones in gold inlaid palaces lording it over the flock and each other, teaching things that Jesus never said.

I don't see those in my brotherhood with blood on their hands because they have chosen to participate in political wars. (Isaiah 1:15)

I see the command to preach "the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth" (Matthew 24:14) as Jesus instructed, but I don't see Christendom doing that....do you? I don't see any of my brothers homeless or begging for food because we take care of one another as a global brotherhood. How does Christendom stack up in these areas?
They might have 'charities', but how many "church" run charities are really businesses with well paid people creaming off a very comfortable living off the poverty of others, when Jesus said "you received free, give free". How many ministers or priests will do a wedding, or a baptism or a funeral for no charge?

That is a terribly misguided stereotype as governments, including those that form your JW leadership, are not all the same

Misguided? Really? You don't think corruption exists in governments? It isn't a stereotype...its just the way it is...and has always been. The Bible says that the devil is the ruler of this world, and he admitted that he can give rulership to whomever he pleases. (Luke 4:5-8) Surely you don't think the world of today is approved of by God?

If you put men in power by voting for them, (because you believe their empty promises) then you have to accept responsibility for what they do with that power.

 

[Deeje]

A teaching is not always followed by all, so if we use your "logic", then all churches and kingdom halls must be Satanic as well since some members don't always follow the rules.

This is your logic?

It depends on which "rules" they fail to follow. Breaking God's stated laws on morality or on political neutrality would mean never being found guilty of sexual misconduct or deliberately taking human life or any crime of violence...Those guilty of 'lawlessness' will be accountable. (Matthew 7:21-23) But in the minor things, we are free to follow the dictates of our own conscience, never judging one another as worthy or unworthy of salvation, but keeping an eye on our brothers so as to tap them on the shoulder if we see them wandering down a dangerous path. (Galatians 6:1) That is the loving thing to do.

And how could you possibly know that? Oh yes, I'm sure your JW leaders convinced you of that, so now you're here to parrot what they have literally brainwashed you to believe. Again, your and their use of stereotypes is just so immoral, but for some reason, you can't see it.

Well, actually it was Jesus. Read Matthew 23. If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck.....the brainwashing of the human race was well and truly accomplished long before God began to gather his people in these last days....they were "washed" but it made them clean in all the right ways.

It was Daniel who prophesied that God would 'cleanse and refine' a people in "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) Someone had to be obedient to the Christ and preach his message all over the world, right up to the time when Jesus was to manifest himself......I don't see the churches doing that.

I've read it many times, Deeje, but what you have shown us time and time again is that you only believe in the scriptures that your JW leaders tell you is acceptable to believe.

Now this I find quite amusing. Are you saying that Israel was not responsible for demanding a human king?
I provided 1 Samuel 8:1-22 as a prooftext that this was so. You say you've read it many times and then tell me that I only believe what my leaders teach me? Seriously? Did I need my leaders to teach me what is clearly stated in the Bible?

Again, you conflate the point, namely as to why God would have Laws as found in Torah that demand how kings must behave, and also how God anointed various kings, and yet you come back with the stereotyped nonsense that all governments are controlled by Satan.

This is what the Bible says....are you disputing it?
1 John 5:19..."We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."
How much of the world are we talking about in this scripture? Do you see your country as an exemption perhaps?

all you continue to do is to parrot the JW leaders while at the same time ignoring or pooh-poohing away what is found right smack dab in your very own Bible.....God demanded that kings follow a certain pattern as found in Torah, and yet you just ignore the rather obvious implication of that.

The "implication" is in 1 Samuel 8:1-22.....before the kings, who did Israel have to lead them? Didn't they have the Patriarchs, older men and appointed judges? (Deuteronomy 1:13-15) After their 400 years in Egypt, Israel went from families of paternal heads to being constituted a nation after God released them from slavery with a great show of his power.

Since Jehovah can exercise his foreknowledge, he preempted the people's demand for a human king and provided for an eventual dynasty of kings that would represent Him in civil matters. These kings, however, were not absolute monarchs, since the priesthood was separate from the kingship and independent of it, and in reality the kings sat on “Jehovah’s throne” as his representatives, subject to his directives and discipline. (Deuteronomy 17:14-20; 1Chronicles 29:23; 2Chronicles 26:16-21)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If I were Christian watching this, I'd seriously consider atheism...

They're all blondes. Interesting.

Lol

 

[Epic Beard Man]

They're all blondes. Interesting.

Lol

I wonder if this was intentional on CNN's part.

 

[metis]

When I watch Fox (only when I'm in a masochistic mood), I can't figure out whether the women are wearing skirts or just belts.

BTW, their outfits are chosen by Fox, so they cannot wear their own.