Christians: is there a hell?

[samtonga43]

Of course he is. Apart from the "subtly". This is far from my first rodeo.

You seem so sure, Alien826, and yet you are wrong. Have you been a victim of proselytizers, as I have?

 

[samtonga43]

Oh jolly good,so you are qualified to say a direct statement is not direct at all if you think it isn't.

Well, I do understand that a direct statement is one in which the words spoken are reproduced within speech marks. I’ll look back and check, but I feel sure that I must have placed that quote in speech marks.

 

[samtonga43]

Thought I see some truth in what you say, I would subscribe to this position:
Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
So, some are without God. IMV but with the option of being with God.

I completely agree. I believe that we are all, while on this side of eternity, in the presence of God, even though we do all not recognize His presence. I also believe that only God can draw us to Himself. If we do not want to be with God eternally ... we won't be.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Of course there is a heaven and a hell. But the concept Christians have, I believe, is far divorced from reality and this Buddhist definition is, in my estimation the closest we can get to what it’s really all about.

Hell

1:17 Agony now, agony hereafter,
the wrong-doer suffers agony in both worlds.
Agonized now by the knowledge that one has done wrong,
one suffers more agony, gone to a state of woe.

Heaven

1:18 Rejoicing now, rejoicing hereafter,
the doer of wholesome actions rejoices in both worlds.
Rejoicing now in the knowledge that one has acted rightly,
one rejoices more, gone to a state of bliss.

Dhammapada 1.17, 1.18


Unless one’s character is transformed, then by belief alone one is not saved, because to be saved means to be saved from sinfulness. And just believing does not rid one of sinfulness. Acting virtuously lessens sinfulness.

 

[Brian2]

Yes,
It’s all through the Bible:
““But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’ And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9‬:‭42‬-‭48‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I don't know what it means when it says "their worm does not die".
The following verse suggests that those cast into "gehenna" die.
Isa 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD. 24 “As they go forth, they will see the corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm will never die, their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.”

This following verse suggests that body and soul are destroyed in gehenna.
Matt 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

A problem that we seem to have with the whole question is that "sheol" in the OT and "hades" in the NT seem to be where the dead go when they die but "gehenna" is probably what is the final place for the wicked, a place of torment yes but also a place where a person, body and soul, is destroyed and so torment is not forever.
In the NT for some reason "hades" is translated as "hell" in most translations and that created a confusion between hades and gehenna, which is probably the lake of fire and the outer darkness spoken of by Jesus.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I don't know what it means when it says "their worm does not die".
The following verse suggests that those cast into "gehenna" die.
Isa 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD. 24 “As they go forth, they will see the corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm will never die, their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.”

This following verse suggests that body and soul are destroyed in gehenna.
Matt 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

A problem that we seem to have with the whole question is that "sheol" in the OT and "hades" in the NT seem to be where the dead go when they die but "gehenna" is probably what is the final place for the wicked, a place of torment yes but also a place where a person, body and soul, is destroyed and so torment is not forever.
In the NT for some reason "hades" is translated as "hell" in most translations and that created a confusion between hades and gehenna, which is probably the lake of fire and the outer darkness spoken of by Jesus.

Well, there is this too:
“Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14‬:‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Brian2]

Well, there is this too:
“Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14‬:‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

That one can be interpreted to mean that yes they are tormented and they have no rest from it, but they are not tormented forever, but it does mean some gymnastics to interpret it that way.

 

[ChristineM]

Well, I do understand that a direct statement is one in which the words spoken are reproduced within speech marks. I’ll look back and check, but I feel sure that I must have placed that quote in speech marks.

In your opinion.
.word usage also indicate "knowledge" as opposed to believe.

 

[Kenny]

I completely agree. I believe that we are all, while on this side of eternity, in the presence of God, even though we do all not recognize His presence. I also believe that only God can draw us to Himself. If we do not want to be with God eternally ... we won't be.

I think this is well said.

 

[samtonga43]

In your opinion.

Not just my opinion, ChristineM. The opinion of anyone who knows what the words ‘direct’ and ‘statement’ mean.

.word usage also indicate "knowledge" as opposed to believe.

Not sure what you mean by this… can you explain?

 

[Alien826]

You seem so sure, Alien826, and yet you are wrong. Have you been a victim of proselytizers, as I have?

If you are not, then I owe you an apology.

Yes, but I don't typically consider myself a victim. I quite enjoy listening to them (if they are polite and will shut up when I've had enough). I can learn a lot, though it's more about the people than the message. I had these two LDS girls visit me for a while and I listened to their pitch. What I learned was that they had a script that they followed and if you asked something that was not on their list of answers they quickly got lost. Eventually I told them that they could keep coming as long as they liked, but their chances of converting me were zero. They stopped coming. Some time later they turned up on my doorstep and asked for a glass of water. They said they had just come round because it was nice to see someone who wasn't rude to them.

 

[ChristineM]

Not just my opinion, ChristineM. The opinion of anyone who knows what the words ‘direct’ and ‘statement’ mean.

Not sure what you mean by this… can you explain?

You wrote...

"To enter heaven is to become more human than you ever succeeded in being on earth; to enter hell is to be banished from humanity. What is cast (or casts itself) into hell is not a man: it is 'remains.'"​

C. S. Lewis

In quotes as a direct quote so don't give me any of your nonsense,i really cannot be bothered

 

[samtonga43]

You wrote...
"To enter heaven is to become more human than you ever succeeded in being on earth; to enter hell is to be banished from humanity. What is cast (or casts itself) into hell is not a man: it is 'remains.'"
C. S. Lewis
In quotes as a direct quote so don't give me any of your nonsense,i really cannot be bothered

The quote marks enclose the words of Lewis.
These words express a belief.
This belief is stated as a posteriori truth, not as a priori truth.

I’m not understanding why you have a problem with this, ChristineM. What am I missing?

 

[samtonga43]

If you are not, then I owe you an apology.

I am not, so thank you.

Yes, but I don't typically consider myself a victim. I quite enjoy listening to them (if they are polite and will shut up when I've had enough). I can learn a lot, though it's more about the people than the message. I had these two LDS girls visit me for a while and I listened to their pitch. What I learned was that they had a script that they followed and if you asked something that was not on their list of answers they quickly got lost. Eventually I told them that they could keep coming as long as they liked, but their chances of converting me were zero. They stopped coming. Some time later they turned up on my doorstep and asked for a glass of water. They said they had just come round because it was nice to see someone who wasn't rude to them.

Yes, you can learn a great deal about the proselytizers by the way they attempt to follow their script.

 

[ChristineM]

The quote marks enclose the words of Lewis.
These words express a belief.
This belief is stated as a posteriori truth, not as a priori truth.

I’m not understanding why you have a problem with this, ChristineM. What am I missing?

I have no problem though you are Probably you are missing the facts.

Direct statement...

As a form of transcription, direct or quoted speech is spoken or written text that reports speech or thought in its original form phrased by the original speaker.

​

 

[samtonga43]

I have no problem though you are Probably you are missing the facts.

Direct statement...

As a form of transcription, direct or quoted speech is spoken or written text that reports speech or thought in its original form phrased by the original speaker.

​

Correct. So when you say that it was written as a statement of knowledge, what type of knowledge are you referencing?

 

[ChristineM]

Correct. So when you say that it was written as a statement of knowledge, what type of knowledge are you referencing?

Read the text YOU quoted

 

[Sand Dancer]

No...Countless Christians believe atheists and Christians have the same chances to get to Heaven.

Not in the US they don't.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Of course. Jesus talked about hell a lot.

Not really. In Luke there is the story about the rich man and the beggar. The rich man was in hell because he had good things during his life and was selfish. Jesus did not care for the rich much.

In Mark Gahenna is spoken of, but cutting off body parts is not literal obviously.

 

[samtonga43]

Read the text YOU quoted

I have. Here is my question:--
When you say that it was written as a statement of knowledge, what type of knowledge are you referencing?