(Christians, Muslims): Why your religion?

[Samael_Khan]

On many many ways, but to put a few simple ones forward: scientific facts from the Qur'an which far surpass those in the bible in accuracy as well as quantity, and the lack of contradictions within the Qur'an.

The bible isn't a science book so you can't hold it to that standard. It doesn't care about science as that means nothing to the immediate context of the books and the books purpose. It is concerned with psychology and human nature which helped people at the time, is universal for the most part and is relevant for the length of human existence.

What verses prove the scientific accuracy in the Quran? And what are the best opposing arguments against your view?

Also, doesn't comparing a Holy Book to science to prove its accuracy set it up for failure? Science is progressive, so scientific conclusions of today change over the years based on the evidence available. Certain things you claim as scientific miracles in the Quran today might be disproved by science tomorrow.

 

[Pastek]

Islam makes it clear you must believe in God, (all) the messengers, the Books, the angels, the hereafter. That's the minimum

He still didn't answer concerning Jesus.
For what I understand he said if he's christian he would be catholic or orthodox. But they believe in the divinity of Jesus.
If he believes that, then he can't be muslim, point.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Islam makes it clear you must believe in God, (all) the messengers, the Books, the angels, the hereafter. That's the minimum

He still didn't answer concerning Jesus.
For what I understand he said if he's christian he would be catholic or orthodox. But they believe in the divinity of Jesus.
If he believes that, then he can't be muslim, point.

That is actually a good point. If he believes that Jesus is God then that does narrow the choice down.

 

[Wasp]

That is actually a good point. If he believes that Jesus is God then that does narrow the choice down.

If he believed that he probably wouldn't be asking. Maybe he doesn't believe anything and is trying to find something to believe.

 

[Samael_Khan]

If he believed that he probably wouldn't be asking. Maybe he doesn't believe anything and is trying to find something to believe.

Good point.

 

[danieldemol]

Since the issue of science in the Quran has come up I will leave this here;
Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

 

[Ponder This]

I believe in God, and at this point, I've decided that if I were to follow a particular religion, it would either be Christianity or Islam; these two seem most likely of all the religions I've studied to be true. Yet, I'm conflicted about which one of these is true and unable to make up my mind.

So, Christians and Muslims of RF, why should I join your respective religion and not the alternative?

If you are truly conflicted about it, why not try being a Christian Muslim for a while? Yes, there are people who hold both Islam and Christianity to be true, there just aren't very many of them compared to those who identify strictly as either Christian or Muslim. Also it probably won't be easy for you to deal with groups of people from both Christianity and Islam that don't agree with you.

Essentially, the Christian Muslims believe that Muhammad reaffirmed the same message that Christ affirmed and that the Christ was the Ruh Allah or Spirit of God here on Earth. The biggest problem that you have to face is the question of whether or not the Christ died on the cross or not, because Christians generally hold that he did die and Muslims generally hold that he did not die.

Broadly speaking:
Christians say : Christ died and was resurrected.
Muslims say: Christ did not die, but was saved by God.
Christian Muslims say: the Spirit of God is not physical... So.. go argue somewhere else.

Which one are you?

The other thing you have to deal with is how you end up practicing your religion. Muslims pray five times a day. Is that a question of truth? No. It's something revealed to Muhammad and practiced as part of the path of Islam. It's a way for you to follow (because the truth according to Islam is that God wanted people to pray all the time everyday and not just five times a day). Christians need to set apart a day of rest: and in practice that's Sunday. Is it a question of truth? No. It's something Christians did in order to set themselves apart from the Jews who aren't Christians and who rest on Saturdays. So you are going to run into a lots of things like this: the way people of faith have done things in the past and formulated their religious traditions. So when you choose Islam or Christianity you are also choosing a particular group of people who hold common beliefs and common traditions - not because those traditions are "true" but because that's the way in which their higher understanding of God manifests and develops. Does one of these traditions strike you as the best way to build your relationship with God? Consider doing that.

So where do you find your answers?

A Book?
A Person?
A Prophet?
Meditation?
Your Ancestors?
Or do you pray to God directly for understanding?

Each one of these offers potential answers to your questions. Seek and you shall find.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Since the issue of science in the Quran has come up I will leave this here;
Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

Good reference. Funny.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe in God, and at this point, I've decided that if I were to follow a particular religion, it would either be Christianity or Islam; these two seem most likely of all the religions I've studied to be true. Yet, I'm conflicted about which one of these is true and unable to make up my mind.

So, Christians and Muslims of RF, why should I join your respective religion and not the alternative?

It’s a great question. What if both religions are true? If you seperate out what both Jesus and Muhammad taught as opposed to the disparate beliefs held by their followers there will be much more consistency between the two Revelations. One major problem with both religions is they emerged during historical circumstances very different from today. To understand both the Bible and Quran requires a deep understanding of both textural and historic context.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

If you need a perfect written text to validate the truth of a religion for you, then Christianity is not for you. Christianity isn't about a text, it's about a person.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe in God, and at this point, I've decided that if I were to follow a particular religion, it would either be Christianity or Islam; these two seem most likely of all the religions I've studied to be true. Yet, I'm conflicted about which one of these is true and unable to make up my mind.

So, Christians and Muslims of RF, why should I join your respective religion and not the alternative?

Islam accepts both Jesus and the Bible. All it rejects are the interpretations of 40,000 sects and accepts the Quran’s interpretation of Jesus. Both religions are true and I accept them both.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Islam accepts both Jesus and the Bible. All it rejects are the interpretations of 40,000 sects and accepts the Quran’s interpretation of Jesus. Both religions are true and I accept them both.

Islam as far as I know isn't very accepting of the NT

 

[Scheherazade]

It’s a great question. What if both religions are true? If you seperate out what both Jesus and Muhammad taught as opposed to the disparate beliefs held by their followers there will be much more consistency between the two Revelations. One major problem with both religions is they emerged during historical circumstances very different from today. To understand both the Bible and Quran requires a deep understanding of both textural and historic context.

Islam essentially teaches is that Christianity is true but that its original essence has been distorted over time due to religious 'exaggeration' on the part of its adherents, leading them to declare Jesus to be God (Qur'an 4:171, 5:116, 9:31, etc.); so, if I became a Muslim, then that is the position I would naturally adopt. Or are you asking that I consider your religion, the Baha'i Faith? I already have, and I have my own reasons for rejecting it. I am skeptical of all such syncretic attempts to subsume all the major world religions into some kind of artificial unity. To do this is in fact to separate these Traditions from their context, not to realize them within it. You affirm the truth of these religions in a general sense, but do not realize exactly what that entails. A good example is the finality of Muhammad's prophethood in the case of Islam (cf. Q. 33:40). Baha'is do not seem to realize just how essential this teaching is to Islam's understanding of itself. The central teaching of Islam is submission to the One God (Q. 6:71, 112:1-4, etc.) who has sent numerous prophets to guide humanity towards this (Q. 16:36). However, each time, the people turned astray and corrupted the message which was entrusted to them (Q. 2:75-79, 3:77-79, 187, 5:13-15, etc.). Therefore, God sent one final prophet (Q. 33:40) whose message would be for all of mankind (Q. 21:107), and which would confirm the truth which was previously revealed to them (Q. 2:41, 89-91, 101, 3:81, etc.) and right that which they had altered, and God would ensure that this message would be preserved until the end of time (Q. 6:115, 15:9, 41:42). That's as simple a summary of Islam as I am capable of, and from this it is quite clear that the literal finality of Muhammad's prophethood is simply so integral to the fabric of Islam, at least as I understand it, that without it, you've deprived Islam of much of its meaning. Another example is how Shoghi Effendi claims that, in the Baha'i Faith, "the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended" (The Promised Day is Come, p. 109), but what does this even mean anymore if you discount the entire Catholic Tradition and the promises made in Matthew 16?

 

[Scheherazade]

Islam accepts both Jesus and the Bible. All it rejects are the interpretations of 40,000 sects and accepts the Quran’s interpretation of Jesus. Both religions are true and I accept them both.

There aren't 40,000 sects of Christianity. That's a long-refuted myth, and the number is nowhere near that. In any case, most of these sects did not exist until the Reformation, so this should be specifically attributed to Protestantism and its emphasis on "private interpretation of Scripture," not to Christianity in itself.

 

[Unguru]

There are those (me included) who interpret the Christ figure as one who realized his own divinity and attempted to show folks the way to realizing theirs

This is the ONLY interpretation of the New Testament version of Jesus that I can take seriously.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Go for Islam, because Christianity isn't for you

 

[Scheherazade]

This is the ONLY interpretation of the New Testament version of Jesus that I can take seriously.

Why is it more sensible to you that everyone is divine than that one person is divine?

Go for Islam, because Christianity isn't for you

Why do you say that?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Why do you say that?

Because Christianity is about the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the people, not about what a book says. If you need a book of rules then choose Islam

 

[The Reverend Bob]

This is the ONLY interpretation of the New Testament version of Jesus that I can take seriously.

That's fine. But as a Christian the only interpretation of Christ I take seriously is that of him being Lord and Savior

 

[Dawnofhope]

Islam essentially teaches is that Christianity is true but that its original essence has been distorted over time due to religious 'exaggeration' on the part of its adherents, leading them to declare Jesus to be God (Qur'an 4:171, 5:116, 9:31, etc.); so, if I became a Muslim, then that is the position I would naturally adopt.

I agree Muhammad taught the original essence of Christianity has been distorted over time. However to argue Islam after 1400 years hasn’t been similarly distorted will be extremely difficult. Whatever standard or evidence used to establish Christianity’s corruption will surely be applicable to Islam too.

Or are you asking that I consider your religion, the Baha'i Faith?

I wasn’t asking you to consider the Baha’i Faith. As you have, I will address the issues raised that are universally applicable to establishing if other religions such as Islam and Christianity are also true.

I already have, and I have my own reasons for rejecting it. I am skeptical of all such syncretic attempts to subsume all the major world religions into some kind of artificial unity. To do this is in fact to separate these Traditions from their context, not to realize them within it. You affirm the truth of these religions in a general sense, but do not realize exactly what that entails

Both Christianity and Islam are syncretic in that they build on the traditions and sacred books that have come before. It’s estimated that the Quran refers to over 50 Biblical characters and about a quarter of its contents refer to the Christian Bible.

You appear to be accusing the Baha’i Faith of doing exactly what Islam does to Christianity. The denial that Christ was crucified based on two verses in the Quran is a good example. Yet those verses could easily be interpreted metaphorically.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
May, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise
Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat157–158

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

Why is it OK for Islam to so radically and fundamentally change Christianity, even denying what many atheist historians believe is true about Christ (His crucifixion) yet to discount the Baha’i Faith because we interpret the Quran differently?

When you start making very general statements how all peoples of one Faith don’t understand the faith of another, it doesn’t come across well. There are Christians who have an excellent understanding of Islam and vice versa. Baha’is are a diverse group and you will find a diverse range of perspectives and understandings.

A good example is the finality of Muhammad's prophethood in the case of Islam (cf. Q. 33:40). Baha'is do not seem to realize just how essential this teaching is to Islam's understanding of itself.

You could say the same about the resurrection to Christianity. However the real issue is truth, not the extent a belief is upheld by the mainstream of a faiths adherents.

The central teaching of Islam is submission to the One God (Q. 6:71, 112:1-4, etc.) who has sent numerous prophets to guide humanity towards this (Q. 16:36). However, each time, the people turned astray and corrupted the message which was entrusted to them (Q. 2:75-79, 3:77-79, 187, 5:13-15, etc.). Therefore, God sent one final prophet (Q. 33:40) whose message would be for all of mankind (Q. 21:107), and which would confirm the truth which was previously revealed to them (Q. 2:41, 89-91, 101, 3:81, etc.) and right that which they had altered, and God would ensure that this message would be preserved until the end of time (Q. 6:115, 15:9, 41:42).

That is certainly the narrative held by mainstream Muslims. However, one also needs to consider end time eschatology and traditions surrounding the Mahdi or one who will redeem Islam.

Mahdi - Wikipedia

That's as simple a summary of Islam as I am capable of, and from this it is quite clear that the literal finality of Muhammad's prophethood is simply so integral to the fabric of Islam, at least as I understand it, that without it, you've deprived Islam of much of its meaning.

All the world religions have references to future events and one who comes to renew, redeem and restore religion back to its original essence. Islam is no exception. The last idea that God will no longer guide humanity on account of His final guidance through Muhammad has many problems.

The specific term seal of the prophets can have other meanings besides those traditionally believed.

Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia

Another example is how Shoghi Effendi claims that, in the Baha'i Faith, "the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended" (The Promised Day is Come, p. 109), but what does this even mean anymore if you discount the entire Catholic Tradition and the promises made in Matthew 16?

Jesus appointed a successor as did Muhammad (Ali). The legitimacy of a successor based on the will of God is crucial to a faith being freed from corruption. Who denies the entire Catholic tradition? The Baha’is clearly don’t but we don’t accept Catholicism in its entirety as being true any more than we do Shi’a or Sunni Islam. Religion changes with time and man made traditions become inextricably interwoven with what God has Revealed. How can Islam as it stands today represent the final and uncorrupted Revelation from God? Its so divided and out of step with modernity.