Christians Only: Explaining the Trinity

[Shiranui117]

Yes, in rereading Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 it still says the pre-human Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
God is uncreated and from everlasting ( No beginning ) Psalms 90:2
So, Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Jesus was the beginning of creation, as in, He was the One Who began it. (John 1:3)

Jesus was firstborn of every creation - Colossians 1:15

Jesus is also called the firstborn of the dead three verses later, in Colossians 1:18. Was Jesus the first person to ever die? No. Was Jesus even the first person to ever rise from the dead? No. So in the same way that being the firstborn of the dead doesn't mean that you are the first one to die or rise from the dead, so it is also the case that being the firstborn of creation doesn't mean that you are the first thing to be created. Being called "firstborn" is an honor; it means that Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation, and more greatly honored than any creature.

Gospel writer John also wrote that No man has seen God at anytime - John 1:18 - people saw Jesus - 1 John 4:12
People saw Jesus and lived - Exodus 33:20

Moses also saw God and lived. (Exodus 33:20-23). Jesus said "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Matthew 5:8)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus was the beginning of creation, as in, He was the One Who began it. (John 1:3)
Jesus is also called the firstborn of the dead three verses later, in Colossians 1:18. Was Jesus the first person to ever die? No. Was Jesus even the first person to ever rise from the dead? No. So in the same way that being the firstborn of the dead doesn't mean that you are the first one to die or rise from the dead, so it is also the case that being the firstborn of creation doesn't mean that you are the first thing to be created. Being called "firstborn" is an honor; it means that Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation, and more greatly honored than any creature.
Moses also saw God and lived. (Exodus 33:20-23). Jesus said "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Matthew 5:8)

Where in Exodus 33:20-23 does it say Moses saw God ? Wasn't it God's ' glory ' that passed by ?
Wasn't Moses a man? ______ What did John write about any man seeing God - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12
Didn't Moses live after his encounter with God ?______ so, it was God's ' glory ' that Moses saw otherwise wouldn't Moses have died according to John 1:18; 1 John 4:12

Jesus was Not called Creator - Revelation 4:11 - but according to Revelation 3:14B Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
God used the pre-human Jesus to create - John 1:3; John 1:10; Colossians 1:15; 1 Corinthians 8:6
Only God was before the beginning according to Psalms 90:2
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Yes, Jesus was the first one to be resurrected to spirit life - John 3:13; Acts of the Apostles 2:34; Matthew 11:11
God resurrected Jesus out of the grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 2:31-32 ; Acts of the Apostles 13:30; Colossians 2:12 B ; Hebrews 9:24
God then gave Jesus the power of the resurrection - Revelation 1:18
Doesn't the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still think he has a God over him ?______ - Revelation 3:12

So, like Moses, people can ' see ' God - Matthew 5:8 with the mind's eye, the eyes of understanding.

 

[David1967]

Where in Exodus 33:20-23 does it say Moses saw God ? Wasn't it God's ' glory ' that passed by ?
Wasn't Moses a man? ______ What did John write about any man seeing God - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12
Didn't Moses live after his encounter with God ?______ so, it was God's ' glory ' that Moses saw otherwise wouldn't Moses have died according to John 1:18; 1 John 4:12

Jesus was Not called Creator - Revelation 4:11 - but according to Revelation 3:14B Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
God used the pre-human Jesus to create - John 1:3; John 1:10; Colossians 1:15; 1 Corinthians 8:6
Only God was before the beginning according to Psalms 90:2
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Yes, Jesus was the first one to be resurrected to spirit life - John 3:13; Acts of the Apostles 2:34; Matthew 11:11
God resurrected Jesus out of the grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 2:31-32 ; Acts of the Apostles 13:30; Colossians 2:12 B ; Hebrews 9:24
God then gave Jesus the power of the resurrection - Revelation 1:18
Doesn't the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still think he has a God over him ?______ - Revelation 3:12

So, like Moses, people can ' see ' God - Matthew 5:8 with the mind's eye, the eyes of understanding.

Interesting discussion isn't it? You two are making some good points from both schools of thought.

 

[Katzpur]

It seems to me anyway that the main point of contention between Christianity, Islam and Judaism ( and to be fair, some types of Christianity) is the Concept of the Trinity. I would like to see an explanation for the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God.

Consider the fact that "God" is a title that we humans use to address our deity, and that the word "God" can be used as a collective noun (a noun which is treated as plural when the group it names is considered to be made up of individuals -- like "team," "audience" or "choir"). Next, look up "Godhead" in pretty much any dictionary. You will see the word "God" listed as a synonym. So, "God" can be used to refer to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost -- individually, since they share this title. It can also be used to refer to the "Godhead" and to all three members of the Godhead collectively. When used to refer to the Godhead, the singular form of the verb "to be" is used, so we say "the Godhead is" as opposed to "the Godhead are," the same as you would when using any collective noun. In other words, whether there are four people or thirty people on a team, it's still just "one team." The same is true when you use the word "God" and are referring to all three members of the Godhead.

 

[james2ko]

Jesus was the beginning of creation, as in, He was the One Who began it. (John 1:3)

1. Long time no speak. Doesn't the context of Joh 1:3 imply God the Father as the One doing the creating "through" Christ? Christ was indirectly involved as the Father's agent but the Father is the One who actually "began it", and He "began it" with the creation of Christ.

This is made evident by the subjective genitive in Rev 3:14 (creation of God), reflecting the subject-- The Father (God)-- as the one creating the object--The Amen, The Faithful, and True Witness-Jesus Christ.

Jesus is also called the firstborn of the dead three verses later, in Colossians 1:18. Was Jesus the first person to ever die? No. Was Jesus even the first person to ever rise from the dead? No. So in the same way that being the firstborn of the dead doesn't mean that you are the first one to die or rise from the dead, so it is also the case that being the firstborn of creation doesn't mean that you are the first thing to be created.

2. But He was the first dead human to be raised to immortality. So in the same way Christ could not be literally called “Firstborn from the dead” had He not been the first human being to die and be raised to immortality, so it is also the case He could not be called “the Firstborn of all creation” had He not been the first being ever created.

Being called "firstborn" is an honor; it means that Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation, and more greatly honored than any creature.

3. Preeminence is a secondary definition of prototokos [firstborn] . Its primary and static definition is the first-begotten or first in time or place. We get our English term "prototype" from its root. Prototype is defined as, not the most honored or greatest, but the very "first" model of something. The indication in scripture is that both the primary and secondary definitions apply to Christ. He was The Father's first creative act, who after His incarnation, death, and resurrection, gained pre-eminence over all creation.

 

[Acim]

My understanding / explanation of Holy Trinity:

God - Holy Spirit - Child

God = Father/Mother/Creator and/or Source for All that exists

Holy Spirit = God's Word, or Voice of God, or that which communicates with God's Creation*

Child = Son/Daughter and/or Creation(s), extensions of God, Christ

There is no separation between the three. There is distinction.
*Holy Spirit is not necessary for God to communicate to Creation as that occurs (always) through direct revelation, but because the Child may believe (read as have very strong conviction) in separation between Own Self and God (Father), the Holy Spirit is medium between the two (which in reality are One) so that Child would always have path (or knowledge of) Home.

 

[Shiranui117]

1. Long time no speak. Doesn't the context of Joh 1:3 imply God the Father as the One doing the creating "through" Christ? Christ was indirectly involved as the Father's agent but the Father is the One who actually "began it", and He "began it" with the creation of Christ.

Yet there is nothing which says that Jesus was created. In fact, Hebrews 1 straight-up denies that Jesus is an angel, which is the assertion of those who deny Jesus' Divinity.

This is made evident by the subjective genitive in Rev 3:14 (creation of God), reflecting the subject-- The Father (God)-- as the one creating the object--The Amen, The Faithful, and True Witness-Jesus Christ.

Then why are Psalm verses directed to Yahweh in the OT applied directly to Jesus in Hebrews 1? I'm thinking of Hebrews 1:10-12, which cites Psalm 102:25-27.

I'll give you Psalm 102:24-28 so you get a bit of a feel for the context.

“O my God,” I say, “take me not away
in the midst of my days—
you whose years endure
throughout all generations!”

25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
27 but you are the same, and your years have no end.
28 The children of your servants shall dwell secure;
their offspring shall be established before you.

Can you tell me why those verses, which are directed explicitly at Yahweh, are used to address Jesus in Hebrews 1? How can you look at that any other way than to say that Jesus is God?

2. But He was the first dead human to be raised to immortality. So in the same way Christ could not be literally called “Firstborn from the dead” had He not been the first human being to die and be raised to immortality, so it is also the case He could not be called “the Firstborn of all creation” had He not been the first being ever created.

3. Preeminence is a secondary definition of prototokos [firstborn] . Its primary and static definition is the first-begotten or first in time or place. We get our English term "prototype" from its root. Prototype is defined as, not the most honored or greatest, but the very "first" model of something. The indication in scripture is that both the primary and secondary definitions apply to Christ. He was The Father's first creative act, who after His incarnation, death, and resurrection, gained pre-eminence over all creation.

Yet there is nothing to suggest that He was created.

 

[james2ko]

Yet there is nothing which says that Jesus was created. In fact, Hebrews 1 straight-up denies that Jesus is an angel

1. You must be referring to Heb 1:4-5 and 13:

Heb 1:4-5 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again: "I WILL BE TO HIM A FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE TO ME A SON"? Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL"? ​

I agree. At this point in scripture, the author of Hebrews (I believe is Paul) is clearly indicating Christ "is" no longer an angel. The question becomes, are these passages really explicit statements of fact asserting Christ was never a created angel?

If you examine the immediate context closely, Paul writes about who the angels are and what they will be doing (worshiping Christ). Verse nine continues to imply as a result of Christ's sacrifice, The Father anointed Him above His companions (other angels-implying Christ was one Himself), now no longer being considered a mere created angel, but officially God's only begotten son (Joh 1:18;Heb 1:5) who sits at His right hand. It was a change of his rank and status, with no change to His ontological status of a created being.

When applying your reasoning to verse 4, it's like claiming, I became better than a human, therefore we can conclude I was never a human. In the same sense, Christ now being or becoming better than the created angels does not exclude Him from ever being one in the past.

edit: Paul's statements are ones of comparison not denial.

which is the assertion of those who deny Jesus' Divinity

2. I am not denying Jesus' divinity. What I am denying is that He was uncreated. The term "divine" [theois] is simply defined as godlike. The disciples were made "divine" [godlike] when they healed and raised the dead. Humans will also be made divine when they are resurrected (1 Jn 3:2-be like Him). It is tradition, not scripture, that has shaped the definition of the term limiting it to the uncreated:

2Pe 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine [theios-G2304] nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. ​

If created humans can be made divine, logic would dictate a created spirit being (Christ) can also be made divine.

Then why are Psalm verses directed to Yahweh in the OT applied directly to Jesus in

Hebrews 1? I'm thinking of Hebrews 1:10-12, which cites Psalm 102:25-27. Can you tell me why those verses, which are directed explicitly at Yahweh, are used to address Jesus in Hebrews 1? How can you look at that any other way than to say that Jesus is God?

3. I'm not denying Jesus was a member of the God family. He was a "God". What you are assuming is that He could not be created. The scriptures reveal YHVH is the God family's name (Eph 3:14-15). Loosely similar to a human father distributing his surname to his offspring. The Father allowed His angels to utilize His name. We find evidence of this in Gen 18-19 and several other scriptures including yours above.

Yet there is nothing to suggest that He was created.

4. If you believe Christ was the first human to die and become immortal--firstborn from the dead (Col 1:18), then it is only logical to believe He was the first created being--firstborn of every creature or all creation (Col 1:15).

If my memory serves me right, you are familiar with Greek. Can you elaborate on the Greek term prototokos, as utilized in scripture? Can you also elaborate on the subjective genitive in Rev 3:14, suggesting the subject (the Father) created the object (Christ)? Perhaps I am missing something.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. Long time no speak. Doesn't the context of John 1:3 imply God the Father as the One doing the creating "through" Christ? Christ was indirectly involved as the Father's agent but the Father is the One who actually "began it", and He "began it" with the creation of Christ.
This is made evident by the subjective genitive in Revelation 3:14 (creation of God), reflecting the subject-- The Father (God)-- as the one creating the object--The Amen, The Faithful, and True Witness-Jesus Christ.
2. But He was the first dead human to be raised to immortality. So in the same way Christ could not be literally called “Firstborn from the dead” had He not been the first human being to die and be raised to immortality, so it is also the case He could not be called “the Firstborn of all creation” had He not been the first being ever created.
.

Yes, Jesus was the first to be raised to immortality - John 5:26; 1 Corinthians 15:20
Didn't Jesus say at John 3:13 No one had ascended to heaven ?______So, who was the first to die and be raised to immortality if Not Jesus ?
Jesus resurrected No one to heaven. ALL of his resurrections were bringing people back to healthy physical life on earth.
Jesus' resurrections were a preview, or coming attraction, of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during his 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth.
Colossians 1:15 does call Jesus the firstborn of every creation - 1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[james2ko]

Agreed. But I'm afraid no matter how abundantly clear we make the biblical evidence, it will mostly fall upon deaf ears. The "created Christ" doctrine, which refutes the trinity doctrine (for those who feel this is off topic), has been trademarked and marred as an Arius/JW heresy. This fact alone fuels attitudes of bias and energizes subjectivism limiting most Christians to a mere cursory study of the doctrine or worse yet, simply take their bible teachers' word for it. Unfortunately, the very powerful paradigm assuming an uncreated Christ will persist until He returns.

 

[Ralphg]

I usually see the Trinity as:

Begin - Being - End (in a forever lasting cycle).

Because that way it's possible to extend it the easiest way to the Duality, which is 'direct opposites forever', and the singularity: 'Forever'.

 

[midopafo]

It seems to me anyway that the main point of contention between Christianity, Islam and Judaism ( and to be fair, some types of Christianity) is the Concept of the Trinity. I would like to see an explanation for the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God.

So how many gods would you like to see ? Three ? Like plurality of gods ? Like the Romans, Greeks whatever ?

 

[midopafo]

Hi heksesang

In Bible Jesus (pbuh) never claim he is God , on contrary he worship his God "father" , not worship Holy Spirit . , SO God (Fathre ) is greater ONE .

The word Trinity is not exist in Bible , it's invented by Church .

there is BIG different between claim of Authors of Bible and Jesus "teaching" .

God said in Quran that Jesus (pbuh) will deny (in judgement day) that he said he is God or "worship me" .

Well you are wrong about that, " When Abraham was made I Am " Also, My Father and I are One, My Father is greater than I, ( ie. respect ) Well anyway if the Quran is your life then live it. As for the Trinity word in the Bible, there is none. However may I refer you to Abraham and the Three Angels ? Think about it, Angels ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Well you are wrong about that, " When Abraham was made I Am " Also, My Father and I are One, My Father is greater than I, ( ie. respect ) Well anyway if the Quran is your life then live it. As for the Trinity word in the Bible, there is none. However may I refer you to Abraham and the Three Angels ? Think about it, Angels ?

Jesus (pbuh) is not angels , he is human .

There is big different that teaching of the authors of bible and Jesus (pbuh) .

Jesus (pbuh) never claim deity or he will die for sins , thats the authors claim(thought).

 

[David1967]

So how many gods would you like to see ? Three ? Like plurality of gods ? Like the Romans, Greeks whatever ?

I'm not sure I understand your question, but I think one God is adequate. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Coder]

First, I should tell you that I come from a Catholic background and I do view Scripture as authoritative however it must be understood in terms of its context. This context goes beyond context of the sections and other passages in the Bible but also the context of the early preaching (Church) that included teaching many Greek/Romans/pagans.

I propose that the "terminology" used in Scripture itself is "parabolic" (a parable) using "father gods" and "son gods" (e.g. Saturn-Jupiter) terminology (in some places) to relate the reality of the _one_ true God becoming man to pagans who had pervasive concepts of "father gods" and "son gods". In fact, given the environment that the early Church was preaching in, wouldn't one even expect to see language like this? Notice how this language is particularly in John, a later Gospel, perhaps written after some experience had been gained trying to preach to pagans. The Holy Spirit is the term used in Scripture to tie the teaching back to the Jewish roots to indicate that still, we are talking about the one true Judeo-Christian God who does not have parts/persons.

God Bless

 

[ronandcarol]

Christians Only: Explaining the Trinity

Our mere human minds can't explain it, we believe it by faith.
ronandcarol

 

[peacecrusader888]

The Holy Trinity is not a mystery anymore

The spirit of Ama and I had a conversation about the Trinity. This is how it went:
Aristeo: Ama, what is the meaning of Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of God?
Ama: To His right.
Aristeo: Is that to His right?
Ama: Yes.
Aristeo: Aren't they only one? Jesus Christ, He is that God. Why will He say to His right?
Ama: Right. Right. Because there is God the Father.
Aristeo: Isn't God the Father, He is also Jesus Christ?
Ama: Good. That is right. But they were made into three: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It is only one but they were made into three.
Aristeo: Ama, You are that God the Holy Spirit, aren't You? You are also Jesus whose spirit lived in the physical body of what we call Jesus Christ. Is that correct?
Ama: Good. For example, you, your child said "Daddy, please buy me a dress." Then your daughter said, "Daddy, please buy me a dress." You don't have sufficient money to buy for the two. You will ask yourself, who will you buy immediately? Who is that? Question. Isn't it that it is you yourself? Who did you ask? Isn't it that it is you yourself? Who said that it is that child you have to buy immediately? Isn't it that it is you yourself? Then you are three.

The one who decided is God the Father, The one who asked the question, God the Son. The Holy Spirit, who is it? That is the answer. You are three but you are only one,

(For Filipinos, this conversation is at http://aristean.org/transcript006.htm titled "Paliwanag tungkol sa Trinity".) (From 1999-04-25)

 

[midopafo]

Well whatever you all belief is what you believe. Does it really matter ?

 

[peacecrusader888]

Well whatever you all belief is what you believe. Does it really matter ?

Yes, it does really matter. You have heard what He said. It is up to you whether you want to accept it or not. We have done our part of disseminating it to the people. That is what we can do.