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Christians only: Please help me understand!

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I realize that many Christians do not believe that God is going to send all non-believers to Hell, regardless of their circumstances or the way they lived their lives. This thread is not primarily for them, but for those Christians who insist that one must accept Jesus Christ as his Savior in order to be saved and that there will be no ifs, ands or buts about it. I have just been told for the millionth time that this is how it's going to be, and I might just as well get over it. God will not take into account the fact that billions of people lived and died in parts of the world where Christianity was virtually unknown, and that many of them probably would have embraced Christianity had they been exposed to it. Instead, He will send these sorry souls to Hell and welcome the few lucky ones into His presence forever. All I really want to know is this:

How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?

You must remember that God could have sent us all to hell, because we're all sinners. However, he (lovingly) sent His son to die for us so that we might have a chance of getting to Heaven. In this instance, he has already been incredibly merciful, and shown his amazing love for mankind.

I believe that even people who are born into areas of the world who don't know Christianity still have a pretty good shot at Heaven. Because those of us who were fortunate enough to be born in a place where "Jesus" and "Christians" are everyday words, have been commanded to go out to all peoples and to help them understand the Word, to bring them the message of God's amazing love.

How do you reckon that the majority of people on earth will spend an eternity in torment? I'm nearly positive that most everyone in the world have heard about Christianity.

And also, I never said that you might as well get over it. It was you who brought the subject up in the other thread in the first place. :) I am very open to the idea of admitting I'm wrong and changing my beliefs, but I'm going to need something more than "I just can't accept this."
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Well katz, I can see from the "Who's Online" section that you're replying right now, but it's late, and I really have to turn in. So good night all, and I'll tlk2ya tomorrow.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Christiangirl0909 said:
You must remember that God could have sent us all to hell, because we're all sinners. However, he (lovingly) sent His son to die for us so that we might have a chance of getting to Heaven. In this instance, he has already been incredibly merciful, and shown his amazing love for mankind.
I couldn't agree more.

I believe that even people who are born into areas of the world who don't know Christianity still have a pretty good shot at Heaven. Because those of us who were fortunate enough to be born in a place where "Jesus" and "Christians" are everyday words, have been commanded to go out to all peoples and to help them understand the Word, to bring them the message of God's amazing love.
Yes, we have been given this commandment and it's extremely important that we obey it.

How do you reckon that the majority of people on earth will spend an eternity in torment? I'm nearly positive that most everyone in the world have heard about Christianity.
Well, for starters, there were the people who lived during the 2000 year period of time prior to when Christ lived. Two thousand years is a fairly substantial period of time, and an enormous number of people lived during those years.

Secondly, what about the billions of people who lived hundreds of years ago in places Christianity had not yet reached? True, Christianity became the state religion of the Holy Roman Empire fairly early in its history, but there were parts of the world where Buddhism or Hinduism, for example, were the only religions known and practiced. I'm talking about the billions of people who lived in 3rd century China or India, or the jungles of Africa. What about the hundreds of thousands of native Americas who lived on this continent for centuries before Christiantiy was introduced here? Christianity didn't spread to some of these places for many centuries.

Thirdly, do you have any idea at all what literacy rates were in medieval Europe? Only the tiniest fraction of people could even read. Furthermore, had they been able to read, it would have done them no good whatsoever. Until the printing press was invented, the Church had sole access to the scriptures. The Bible was not even available to the common man. How could someone who was unable to read at all be held accountable for reading, understanding and living according to a book that was not even available to him? Many of these people were "Christians" because they had been baptized as babies, but that's certainly not the same thing as saying they had any kind of a choice in the matter.

What about today in countries like Iraq where being a Christian is a capital offense? Millions of Muslim children are indoctrinated against Christianity from long before they are old enough to make an informed decision themselves. How is a ten-year old kid going to know anything other that what he's been taught? Is knowing "of" Jesus Christ the same thing as "knowing" Jesus Christ? And speaking of children, what about the millions who died as infants, before they could possibly have understood who their Savior was? If they were incapable of understanding who He was, they could not very well have recognized the significance of His sacrifice, could they?

With these things in mind, do you still really believe that "most everyone in the world have heard about Christianity"?

And also, I never said that you might as well get over it. It was you who brought the subject up in the other thread in the first place. :) I am very open to the idea of admitting I'm wrong and changing my beliefs, but I'm going to need something more than "I just can't accept this."
I know you didn't. I shouldn't have put it that way. I apologize for that. When I get frustrated, I tend to say stupid things. :sorry1:

Still, however, the question remains:

How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?
 

MM21

Member
Katzpur said:
How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?

You can't.

Like Christiangirl said it we all deserve hell when it comes down to it, but on the contrary, we can not be sure how far His grace measures...:D
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
MM21 said:
You can't.

Like Christiangirl said it we all deserve hell when it comes down to it, but on the contrary, we can not be sure how far His grace measures...:D
Do tiny babies also deserve hell? What have they done to deserve that?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?

I don't really know what will happen to these people. God really didn't give us the answer to this question.

He has charged every Christian with the responsibility to get the gospel out to the world through Christ Jesus. And if we're each doing our part and sharing Christ's love with as many as we can...I don't think we should stress over and worry about God's job.

Because ultimately, it's God who will decide the fate of those who have not heard the gospel. Christ Jesus will come to judge. The job of deciding what happens to these people is in the best of hands, don't you think? These people are HIS creations and are HIS to reward or punish accordingly.

Whether the answer to this question is the one we WANT to hear or the one that is hard to digest...God's way is THE WAY. And I don't think any one of us can say with certainty that we know the answer to this one.

Further, I did find an article that somewhat explains some of my thoughts on this matter. http://members.aol.com/OrthodoxUM/SalvationPritchard1.html

There are points raised within this article that I DO believe.

I'm guilty of this myself...somtimes, when I think of people around the world who haven't heard the gospel...I picture these people as good, kind hearted people who are completely innocent and the thought of them not going to heaven because of never hearing the gospel is a horrible thought. They couldn't possibly deserve such a fate.

Truth is...we all DESERVE hell, when you get down to it. I'm sure there are good, kind hearted people throughout the world who WOULD joyfully embrace Christ into their lives if given the chance. But Christ died in agony because even THEY sin and are tainted. These people aren't innocent. We're not innocent. We aren't clean until we go to Christ in repentance. So, I really don't think the concept of..."they don't deserve it" flies. And I'm personally guilty of thinking this way at times.

And I think regardless of your religious station, or wherever you are in life...the concepts of good and evil stand. And I think individuals, regardless of whether or not they've heard the gospel or not are accountable for their actions and know whether certain actions are right or wrong.

I can't necessarily give a thumbs up on the idea that just because people haven't heard the Word...they have a clean slate...a get out of jail free card. Still, I don't know the hearts of these people...GOD does and again, it's GOD'S job, not mine, to decide what happens to them.

I also agree with something else that is stated in this article.

God most certainly is the very definition of LOVE. He is our Father. He is mercifiul. He is forgiving.

These aren't the only characteristics of God, though. God is also jealous and wrathful...yes, even wrathful. (I can provide scripture if need be.)

Whatever God has planned for those who haven't heard the Word...is JUST.

I didn't create the plan of salvation...HE did. So, whatever He wills...will be. And I do the best I can do and I don't worry about it.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Katzpur said:
Do tiny babies also deserve hell? What have they done to deserve that?

The bottom line...we can't know what their fate is. It's not in our hands. It's in God's. God didn't provide any of us with the answers to this question.

And because it's in God's hands...we have NOTHING to worry about. Because whatever it is that He decides for the fate of even the tiniest little person...is JUST.

That little person is HIS life to give and HIS life to take away. It isn't you and I who know the number of hairs on that child's head. It isn't you and I who know the inner hearts of the mother who carried that child or the father who fathered that child. It is CHRIST who knows this.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Well, for starters, there were the people who lived during the 2000 year period of time prior to when Christ lived. Two thousand years is a fairly substantial period of time, and an enormous number of people lived during those years.

Secondly, what about the billions of people who lived hundreds of years ago in places Christianity had not yet reached? True, Christianity became the state religion of the Holy Roman Empire fairly early in its history, but there were parts of the world where Buddhism or Hinduism, for example, were the only religions known and practiced. I'm talking about the billions of people who lived in 3rd century China or India, or the jungles of Africa. What about the hundreds of thousands of native Americas who lived on this continent for centuries before Christiantiy was introduced here? Christianity didn't spread to some of these places for many centuries.

Thirdly, do you have any idea at all what literacy rates were in medieval Europe? Only the tiniest fraction of people could even read. Furthermore, had they been able to read, it would have done them no good whatsoever. Until the printing press was invented, the Church had sole access to the scriptures. The Bible was not even available to the common man. How could someone who was unable to read at all be held accountable for reading, understanding and living according to a book that was not even available to him? Many of these people were "Christians" because they had been baptized as babies, but that's certainly not the same thing as saying they had any kind of a choice in the matter.

What about today in countries like Iraq where being a Christian is a capital offense? Millions of Muslim children are indoctrinated against Christianity from long before they are old enough to make an informed decision themselves. How is a ten-year old kid going to know anything other that what he's been taught? Is knowing "of" Jesus Christ the same thing as "knowing" Jesus Christ? And speaking of children, what about the millions who died as infants, before they could possibly have understood who their Savior was? If they were incapable of understanding who He was, they could not very well have recognized the significance of His sacrifice, could they?

I don't have all the answers. I know the Bible says something along the lines of "narrow is the path, and few will find it". Just as it says you must believe and be baptized to be saved.

I don't really know what will happen to these people. God really didn't give us the answer to this question.

He has charged every Christian with the responsibility to get the gospel out to the world through Christ Jesus. And if we're each doing our part and sharing Christ's love with as many as we can...I don't think we should stress over and worry about God's job.


Because ultimately, it's God who will decide the fate of those who have not heard the gospel. Christ Jesus will come to judge. The job of deciding what happens to these people is in the best of hands, don't you think? These people are HIS creations and are HIS to reward or punish accordingly.

Whether the answer to this question is the one we WANT to hear or the one that is hard to digest...God's way is THE WAY. And I don't think any one of us can say with certainty that we know the answer to this one.

Further, I did find an article that somewhat explains some of my thoughts on this matter. http://members.aol.com/OrthodoxUM/SalvationPritchard1.html

There are points raised within this article that I DO believe.

I'm guilty of this myself...somtimes, when I think of people around the world who haven't heard the gospel...I picture these people as good, kind hearted people who are completely innocent and the thought of them not going to heaven because of never hearing the gospel is a horrible thought. They couldn't possibly deserve such a fate.

Truth is...we all DESERVE hell, when you get down to it. I'm sure there are good, kind hearted people throughout the world who WOULD joyfully embrace Christ into their lives if given the chance. But Christ died in agony because even THEY sin and are tainted. These people aren't innocent. We're not innocent. We aren't clean until we go to Christ in repentance. So, I really don't think the concept of..."they don't deserve it" flies. And I'm personally guilty of thinking this way at times.

And I think regardless of your religious station, or wherever you are in life...the concepts of good and evil stand. And I think individuals, regardless of whether or not they've heard the gospel or not are accountable for their actions and know whether certain actions are right or wrong.

I can't necessarily give a thumbs up on the idea that just because people haven't heard the Word...they have a clean slate...a get out of jail free card. Still, I don't know the hearts of these people...GOD does and again, it's GOD'S job, not mine, to decide what happens to them.

I also agree with something else that is stated in this article.

God most certainly is the very definition of LOVE. He is our Father. He is mercifiul. He is forgiving.

These aren't the only characteristics of God, though. God is also jealous and wrathful...yes, even wrathful. (I can provide scripture if need be.)

Whatever God has planned for those who haven't heard the Word...is JUST.

I didn't create the plan of salvation...HE did. So, whatever He wills...will be. And I do the best I can do and I don't worry about it.

Yes, I agree with you, dawny. I believe it would be sufficient if we left it at that- God will judge everyone the way he sees fit.

But Katz, if you want to continue the thread, count me in.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
It's sad to read these responses because God has made these things known to us, people just choose to ignore Him.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
nutshell said:
It's sad to read these responses because God has made these things known to us, people just choose to ignore Him.

How so?

If you don't mind expounding...I'm all "ears".:D
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
We are all lost. God is just trying to get as many of us who will humble ourselves to seek him to do so.

14 months ago I hurt my ankle. I went to see a doctor (think Rabbi/Priest/Minister/Shaman) to find out why I was hurting. He diagnosed a heal spur and for a full year treated my injury as such. My ankle has been getting WORSE.

Two months ago, I sought out a different doctor. Having had my fill of testosterone, I found a lady doctor to examine my affliction. Within in a couple of minutes she arrived at a far different conclusion (partially torn tendon) and set up the tests to verify that. She told me that the excercises and treatment for a bone spur are contraindicated for a tendon tear: especially so on the achilles.

Did you know that she had the AUDACITY to give me only one way to treat my tendon? The nerve! The sheer utter arrogance! How stinking narrow minded can you get? ONE WAY??? Who died and made her Hippocrates? However, I had to admit that other doctor had failed miserably and this stinking ankle REALLY hurt.

Well, I acquiesced to her Rx and had a cast fitted on my left leg. Much to my chagrin, my ankle is now healing nicely. It's got to be sheer coincidence, doncha think?

God has condemned NO ONE to hell. We have chosen who we will spend eternity with. Many of us are still seeing the wrong doctor, and have put false hopes in their Rx. A few of us have seen the light and are allowing God to heal us in God's way.

Not everyone realises they have a need. Some are insensitive to it. Others simply deny it. Those who do finally see it, usually do something about it.

Do I know what's right for you? Nope. But I know that I was lost but am so no longer and that I was blind and can now see.

Caveat: 6 more weeks in this stoopid cast. Here I am in Key Largo with a LARGE ScubaBoard party (about 60 of us) watching people go out and dive their fool butts off. Do I doubt my new doctor? Nope, but I sure wish she could have done this differently. :sad4:
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Sorry, i know you probably don't want me replying here, but it'll only be one post and i'm just bursting to say it :sorry1:

I think dawny made a lovely point;
dawny0826 said:


Christ Jesus will come to judge. The job of deciding what happens to these people is in the best of hands, don't you think?

Jesus does the judging!

Jesus, the man who shielded a sinful woman when men wanted to stone her. The man who let a sinner anoint his feet!
My Master was a brilliant and beautiful man, he WAS love and mercy, it was his very nature. The Christ will judge with the same intelligence, love and mercy.

The rules of salvation are God's, they are His to make, His to bend and His to break.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
The bottom line...we can't know what their fate is. It's not in our hands. It's in God's.
I would apply that to every single human being that has ever existed. There's no way anybody can know where they'll for sure end up until we die.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
I would apply that to every single human being that has ever existed. There's no way anybody can know where they'll for sure end up until we die.


I agree, however, many evangelicals seem to condemn those people to hell. I believe those are the people Katzpur was targetting in her thread - not those with more common sense like yourself.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
dawny0826 said:
How so?

If you don't mind expounding...I'm all "ears".:D
We've actually talked about this before, Dawny, and it's not my intention to beat a dead horse. It's just that until a person is willing to at least accept the possibility that the Bible is not our sole source for truth, the answer will be unacceptable. That answer, for those willing to believe, is found in the LDS doctrine of what happens to the human spirit during the time between death and our own resurrection. To us, it is every bit as God-breathed as the scriptures that cause this question to arise in the first place. We believe that God has provided a way for all of His children to be able to hear, understand, and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but that for many of them, it will not be during their mortal lives.

I don't mind expounding on that doctrine, but my point in starting this thread was just to explore what seems to me to be a huge dilemma for traditional Christianity. On one hand, the Bible tells us that God is love, and that He is no respecter of persons. On the other hand, it also tells us that it is impossible for any man to come to God by any means other than a belief in Jesus Chrst. If God truly will condemn those who, through no fault of their own, did not have the opportunity to accept Christ, or for whatever reasons, were unable to fully comprehend the truth of His Gospel (I'm thinking, for example, of the Muslim child who is indoctrinated against Christianity at a very young age), how can it be said of Him that He loves all of us equally and wants us to return to His presence?

What parent would treat his children so inequitably? Certainly not the perfect parent that all Christians believe God to be. The only other option (aside from the LDS doctrine) is that God is a liar, and will simply choose to ignore what He has said to us in the scriptures.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Children who pass on have a protected place in the afterlife. They are looked after and cared for, most often by relatives if they have any.

They develop into ascended beings from that stage on, without needing a more substantial mortal existence.

This afterlife is not heaven. Heaven is not the next step, it is still many schoolhouses and government positions away.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Super Universe said:
Children who pass on have a protected place in the afterlife. They are looked after and cared for, most often by relatives if they have any.

They develop into ascended beings from that stage on, without needing a more substantial mortal existence.

This afterlife is not heaven. Heaven is not the next step, it is still many schoolhouses and government positions away.
Super Universe,

Do Urantians consider themselves to be Christians? I only ask because this thread is open only to Christians. I'm not saying you're not a Christian, because I really don't believe in doing that. If you are a Christian, though, I would be interested in hearing you elaborate on what you've already said.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
We've actually talked about this before, Dawny, and it's not my intention to beat a dead horse. It's just that until a person is willing to at least accept the possibility that the Bible is not our sole source for truth, the answer will be unacceptable.

In my life...God IS the source of truth. Christ Jesus IS the source of truth. The Word of God is truth. The Holy Spirit is truth.

And I'm learning as I go...as I walk with Christ.

That answer, for those willing to believe, is found in the LDS doctrine of what happens to the human spirit during the time between death and our own resurrection. To us, it is every bit as God-breathed as the scriptures that cause this question to arise in the first place. We believe that God has provided a way for all of His children to be able to hear, understand, and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but that for many of them, it will not be during their mortal lives.

It's the debate that will never end...because many of us do not accept the validity of LDS doctrine and Latter Day Saints believe that without that docrine...a believer doesn't have the complete story.

I don't mind expounding on that doctrine, but my point in starting this thread was just to explore what seems to me to be a huge dilemma for traditional Christianity. On one hand, the Bible tells us that God is love, and that He is no respecter of persons. On the other hand, it also tells us that it is impossible for any man to come to God by any means other than a belief in Jesus Chrst. If God truly will condemn those who, through no fault of their own, did not have the opportunity to accept Christ, or for whatever reasons, were unable to fully comprehend the truth of His Gospel (I'm thinking, for example, of the Muslim child who is indoctrinated against Christianity at a very young age), how can it be said of Him that He loves all of us equally and wants us to return to His presence?

I know what I'm supposed to do...I'm supposed to let the light of Christ shine through me and share the gospel with everyone that I can. I have complete Faith that God has a plan for the salvation of those who have not heard the gospel. Newborn or old...He's got it under control. I can't save the world, anyway. Only He can. I am responsible for doing my part as I go.

What parent would treat his children so inequitably? Certainly not the perfect parent that all Christians believe God to be.

I've already stated...I don't have all the answers.

I believe God's got it under control, Kathryn. I do the best that I can do and trust in Him and I don't question His nature....I don't question His motives. I don't know all that He has planned for every individual. He can see into their hearts...I can't.

So...I do the best I can do...and I try daily to give the rest to Him...
 
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