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Christians only: Please help me understand!

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
nutshell said:
That's a nice analogy NetDoc, but what about those who never had access to the right Doctor?
A definite tragedy. Ask someone in Uganda or Zaire just how tragic that is. Then ask yourself what you are doing about it. Will God make allowances? I am not in a position to speak for God. However, those who have met the right doctor and have gone to something else will probably be a bit upset and surprised when finally find out.

No one is getting out of here alive. One by one we will all die and will follow whatever path we chose on earth.

"Whatever you did to the least of these, my brothers & my sisters, you did also to me."
(ND Paraphrase)
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
NetDoc said:
A definite tragedy. Ask someone in Uganda or Zaire just how tragic that is. Then ask yourself what you are doing about it.

I know what I'm doing about it, I'm encouraging others (since I cannot until I'm a bit older now) go on missions, supporting them financially, and spreading the word as much as I can.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
dawny0826 said:
In my life...God IS the source of truth. Christ Jesus IS the source of truth. The Word of God is truth. The Holy Spirit is truth.

And I'm learning as I go...as I walk with Christ.
As am I.

It's the debate that will never end...because many of us do not accept the validity of LDS doctrine and Latter Day Saints believe that without that docrine...a believer doesn't have the complete story.
You couldn't possibly have said it better. I would be the first to admit that it is absolutely impossible for someone to will himself to believe something, just because somebody else believes it. I could expound on this subject till I were blue in the face, and even if you wanted to believe I was right, it would make little difference in what your heart told you.

I know what I'm supposed to do...I'm supposed to let the light of Christ shine through me and share the gospel with everyone that I can. I have complete Faith that God has a plan for the salvation of those who have not heard the gospel. Newborn or old...He's got it under control. I can't save the world, anyway. Only He can. I am responsible for doing my part as I go.
And if every Christian did that as well as you do, Dawny, this world would be a better place.

I've already stated...I don't have all the answers.

I believe God's got it under control, Kathryn. I do the best that I can do and trust in Him and I don't question His nature....I don't question His motives. I don't know all that He has planned for every individual. He can see into their hearts...I can't.

So...I do the best I can do...and I try daily to give the rest to Him...
I'd say that, given the fact you don't believe as I do, you have taken an entirely logical approach to dealing with the dilemma.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
nutshell said:
I agree, however, many evangelicals seem to condemn those people to hell. I believe those are the people Katzpur was targetting in her thread - not those with more common sense like yourself.
Then perhaps those individuals should study the teachings of Jesus more thoroughly. They are in no place to do so nor do they have the right.
 

Fluffy

A fool
How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?

Sorry if I have the wrong idea here but don't LDS believe that you are given a chance to accept God after you die? That should go some way to reconciling these two statements since this appears to give them a fair shot at salvation.

Do you believe that people attained salvation before the advent of Christianity?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Fluffy said:
Sorry if I have the wrong idea here but don't LDS believe that you are given a chance to accept God after you die? That should go some way to reconciling these two statements since this appears to give them a fair shot at salvation.
Yes, we do (although that would be an over-simplification of what we actually believe. :) ). But I actually started this thread for the purpose of exploring the dilemma that exists (or at least should exist) for those who believe that the Bible has all the answers. Is God a loving parent, a non-respecter of persons, who wants to have all of His children with Him in Heaven? Yes, if you believe what the Bible has to say about Him. But does salvation come to us solely through the Atonement of Jesus Christ? Again, yes, at least that's what the New Testament has to say. So what about those who didn't have the chance to believe during their lifetime, and how do non-LDS Christians reconcile this dilemma?

Do you believe that people attained salvation before the advent of Christianity?
Yes we do. The Bible mentions that during the three days following Jesus' death, He went (in spirit form) to the Spirit World where He taught the spirits of those in Prison. Those were the spirits of the millions who had died prior to His sacrifice. They were given the opportunity to accept the message He brought them and to reap the benefits of His Atonement. We simply believe that the Spirit World continues to exist today, since there is no biblical evidence that it doesn't. We believe His Gospel continues to be taught there now, not by Him personally, but by those who accepted it on this earth. Those who didn't have the opportunity to hear it during their mortality will have that chance prior to the final judgment.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Katzpur said:
Super Universe,

Do Urantians consider themselves to be Christians? I only ask because this thread is open only to Christians. I'm not saying you're not a Christian, because I really don't believe in doing that. If you are a Christian, though, I would be interested in hearing you elaborate on what you've already said.

One quarter of the Urantia Book (764 pages) tells about the life and teachings of Jesus. It gives the details of His whole human experience, not just from age 30 on (the part the ancient religious leaders left out of the New Testament).

All human personality/soul conscience beings (humans) are extremely important to the universe because each is unique. No human has the exact same personality traits as any other that has ever lived. None are discarded if there is a chance to save.

The normal process is for a soul to join with a human fetus and then take a backseat to the human personality as it develops into a mature and hopefully spiritually aware being. If a child does not mature and passes from this material world then it goes to the afterlife where it is cared for by those who willingly (often close relatives if there are any) raise this being and guide it on the path of an ascended being.

The next step is not heaven. We don't earn that so easily. There is so much to learn and so much work to do but what do humans know about the universe? We know a single page in an extremely large book yet we think we will go directly to heaven after this? And do what?

What universal language can we speak? What do we know of the balance of energy and matter in the universe? Do you think it maintains itself? What do we know of planting genetics for a new life experiement? Do you think life is an accident?

What can we do?
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
Katzpur said:
Yes we do. The Bible mentions that during the three days following Jesus' death, He went (in spirit form) to the Spirit World where He taught the spirits of those in Prison. Those were the spirits of the millions who had died prior to His sacrifice. They were given the opportunity to accept the message He brought them and to reap the benefits of His Atonement. We simply believe that the Spirit World continues to exist today, since there is no biblical evidence that it doesn't. We believe His Gospel continues to be taught there now, not by Him personally, but by those who accepted it on this earth. Those who didn't have the opportunity to hear it during their mortality will have that chance prior to the final judgment.

Just one thing and then I promise I'll butt out...

But, where in the Bible does it say that?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Katzpur said:
Yes we do. The Bible mentions that during the three days following Jesus' death, He went (in spirit form) to the Spirit World where He taught the spirits of those in Prison. Those were the spirits of the millions who had died prior to His sacrifice. They were given the opportunity to accept the message He brought them and to reap the benefits of His Atonement. We simply believe that the Spirit World continues to exist today, since there is no biblical evidence that it doesn't. We believe His Gospel continues to be taught there now, not by Him personally, but by those who accepted it on this earth. Those who didn't have the opportunity to hear it during their mortality will have that chance prior to the final judgment.

The spirits were not in prison, they were awaiting the Son of God to assume His position over this part of the universe. He could not take His place until He had fulfilled His bestowal mission on the earth.

There is no final judgement for the world or for all of humanity.

There is only final judgement for the individual.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Super Universe said:
The spirits were not in prison, they were awaiting the Son of God to assume His position over this part of the universe. He could not take His place until He had fulfilled His bestowal mission on the earth.

There is no final judgement for the world or for all of humanity.

There is only final judgement for the individual.
Well, the Bible says they were in Prison. Those are the words it uses. Anyway, I'm off to church. MaddLlama, I'll get back to you with my answer later today.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
MaddLlama said:
Just one thing and then I promise I'll butt out...

But, where in the Bible does it say that?
In John 5:25, Christ's visit to the spirits who preceded Him in death is prophesied: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

1 Peter mentions the visit of Christ into the Spirit World where He preached His Gospel to them. What purpose would He have had in doing so if they were not allowed to accept it?

1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison..."

1 Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
 

SoyLeche

meh...
MaddLlama said:
Just one thing and then I promise I'll butt out...

But, where in the Bible does it say that?

Katz covered this very well, but I'd just like to point out that, although it is in the Bible, this belief is much more clearly described in modern day scripture. Specifically:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/40 - pretty much the whole chapter
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/45 - specifically verse 17
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76 - specifically verse 73
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/138 - the whole thing

The last one on the list is the most comprehensive.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Katzpur said:
I realize that many Christians do not believe that God is going to send all non-believers to Hell, regardless of their circumstances or the way they lived their lives. This thread is not primarily for them, but for those Christians who insist that one must accept Jesus Christ as his Savior in order to be saved and that there will be no ifs, ands or buts about it. I have just been told for the millionth time that this is how it's going to be, and I might just as well get over it. God will not take into account the fact that billions of people lived and died in parts of the world where Christianity was virtually unknown, and that many of them probably would have embraced Christianity had they been exposed to it. Instead, He will send these sorry souls to Hell and welcome the few lucky ones into His presence forever. All I really want to know is this:

How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?
Katzpur, The only thing I can say is that God's Word does not return unto Hi, void nor does He bare false witness against Himself. I believe God extends grace to little children who are not of age to comprehend salvation or someone who was born mentally incapacity, but for the majority of individuals, God's Word specifically refers to condemnation to those who reject Christ. Regarding those who have never heard the gospel, refer to Romans 1:18-20. There would have been no need for Christ to die a gruesome death if that was not a requirement for our redemption and a personal relationship with God through Christ. At the end of the day, God does not send people to hell, people do that all their own with a free will decision to separate themselves from God by rejecting Jesus. God just honors an individual's free will decision, but in that day, it will be an eternal separation according to the Word of God. Romans speaks of individuals who have not heard the gospel of Christ, having other evidences of God through His creation and the fact that their is a higher authority. They are able to been drawn to Him and His light through creation. But it also states that they would be without excuse.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
blueman said:
Romans speaks of individuals who have not heard the gospel of Christ, having other evidences of God through His creation and the fact that their is a higher authority. They are able to been drawn to Him and His light through creation. But it also states that they would be without excuse.
I would agree that there is evidence for the existence of God everywhere we look, and that it is quite possible to believe in a Higher Power without knowing anything at all about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not, however, possible for a person to acknowledge Jesus' atoning sacrifice or come to an understanding of its significance if that person has never been exposed to His Gospel.

While Romans 1:21 does say that they will be "without excuse," I don't see how you can, by any stretch of the imagination, pretend that everyone who has ever lived died "without excuse." They will be without excuse because God will allow them to hear the same message Jesus preached to the spirits in Prison. They are in prison at this moment and, just like those spirits to whom Jesus ministered after His death, they too will have the opportunity to "live," (i.e. to be released from their prison by repentence and faith in Him). When they stand before God to be judged, they will then be "without excuse."
 

Arrow

Member
quote: Katzpur "How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?"

I really do not know where i stand on this issue, but i might be able to help you understand where people come from in making this claim.

Having lived on this earth, most people will argue that you can see that there is some kind of God. Romans 1: 18-21 Talks about how everyone is without excuse.
C.S. Lewis talks about an inherant knowing of what is right and wrong. We can determine that killing is wrong and that loving one another is right. Once someone comes to the conclusion that there is a God, he would understand that he is accountable to this "entity." A wrong or sinful action would result from something less of God. The person in question could then realize the need for repentance. This can also be backed by the fact that most remote religions have some kind of sacrifice that pleases their "gods." From there it could be rationalized that there could only be one "god" because by the term "god" your implying that it is something all powerful. The question there becomes can there be more than one all powerful entity? Moving along in the train of thoughts, the person in question has no learned he needs repentance. In the book of Joel, it states that those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, and i believe that is as far as one needs to go. I have not been able to find an article on this, but i was told a story that a man in Japan once went through this thought process and denounced his religion to follow God. Believe it or not i guess.
It is not that God is unloving that people would be condemned to go to hell, but because He is just. Something that is sinful cannot dwell in a place where sin is forbidden to dwell in can it? I ask this because this is the question that i am presently dealing with.
 

Happier

Member
:yes:

This reminded me of a chance encounter that had great impact on my spiritual life.

An acquaintance of mine introduced me to a bearded man with the most intense countenance and 'burning' eyes I have ever seen. When this person was introduced to someone, that someone immediately absorbed his entire focus, which was simple and profound in a way I have never experienced before.

It was like being in the presence of someone who had lived a very long time, or who had lived a very long time ago.

He was a missionary, just returned from years in Papua New Guinea where he lived in the remotest villages. He would enter a village, and find someone to help him learn the language. He lived the simplest life the village had to offer, working alongside the people and forming bonds of friendship, then kinship. He ate what they ate, wore what they wore, suffered what they suffered. All for Christ. When he was able to share the simple Gospel message with all, he would invariably (some would say 'coincidentally') be called to a new, more remote area to live and share in another village.

One day a government official arrived and told him he had to leave the country immediately or face imprisonment or worse. He knew he was in grave and imminent danger, but the spirit told him to stay one more day.

The next day, after he had given away every thing he owned (including his poor worn sandals) a hush fell over the villagers that had crowded around to say their goodbyes. As the crowd parted, a stranger walked directly to him. The man wore only the mud painted on his face, and carried a tall spear. In a strange dialect, he asked "are you the white one I am seeking?" When the missionary questioned him further, the tribesman answered: "Last night as I slept in my hut, a man in a white robe and eyes like the sun appeared to me. He told me to get up and come here to find the man with hair on his face, and that you would tell me who he is. He said his name is Jesus".

The tribesman was completely "uncivilized", that is he didn't know anything beyond his own tribe's limits and lived as his people had lived a thousand years ago, never approaching a town or settlement out of fear of the tribal taboo. His people were primitive hunter-gatherers and had no contact with the outside world.

Yet he ran all night through the jungle to what he believed was certain death, knowing if it was the last thing he would ever do, he must find the bearded man and learn about Jesus.

---------------------------------------------------------

As we sat down to eat, he prayed "Father Creator, thank you for making us. Thank you for making the sun, the moon, the stars and the world we live in. Thank you for sending your son to save us. Help us to be good children. Amen".

I have never seen nor felt nor heard such a simple, profound, intense faith.

Of such is the kingdom of heaven.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:
I realize that many Christians do not believe that God is going to send all non-believers to Hell, regardless of their circumstances or the way they lived their lives. This thread is not primarily for them, but for those Christians who insist that one must accept Jesus Christ as his Savior in order to be saved and that there will be no ifs, ands or buts about it. I have just been told for the millionth time that this is how it's going to be, and I might just as well get over it. God will not take into account the fact that billions of people lived and died in parts of the world where Christianity was virtually unknown, and that many of them probably would have embraced Christianity had they been exposed to it. Instead, He will send these sorry souls to Hell and welcome the few lucky ones into His presence forever. All I really want to know is this:

How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment -- without even giving them a fair shot at salvation?

Excellent thread! Although not for me, it's interesting.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Katzpur said:
I would agree that there is evidence for the existence of God everywhere we look, and that it is quite possible to believe in a Higher Power without knowing anything at all about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not, however, possible for a person to acknowledge Jesus' atoning sacrifice or come to an understanding of its significance if that person has never been exposed to His Gospel.

While Romans 1:21 does say that they will be "without excuse," I don't see how you can, by any stretch of the imagination, pretend that everyone who has ever lived died "without excuse." They will be without excuse because God will allow them to hear the same message Jesus preached to the spirits in Prison. They are in prison at this moment and, just like those spirits to whom Jesus ministered after His death, they too will have the opportunity to "live," (i.e. to be released from their prison by repentence and faith in Him). When they stand before God to be judged, they will then be "without excuse."
I don't profess to know whether God's grace will extend to those who have never heard the gospel and subsequent die without the opportunity to accept Christ. There are some mysteries that will not be revealed to us unto we reach His kingdom. For those who have had the opportunity to hear the gospel, but reject it's message, the consequences are more explicit.
 

Happier

Member
REgarding the OP:

Fascinating. I guess I can only add to the questions, I seem to be in the same boat.

How are we to define God's children? Maybe we could think of it in terms of inheritance. Do we know God created every individual to inherit the Kingdom?

If not - why not?

The people who drowned in the flood - were they His children? If so, why did He drown them all? If not, why did He create them?

It seems the only definitive answers to these kinds of 'why' questions come from the book of Job, where God in turn asks "and where were YOU when I created the universe?" - IOW, God gives a complete picture of His complete sovereignty and tells us He is in control. He knows what He is doing even if we do not. We can hazard a guess but we would probably be wrong.

Hyper Calvinists have told me that God the potter created some for honor and some for dishonor.... why?

The primitive man who was led to leave his village and seek knowledge about a god he had never heard the name of before... why?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
blueman said:
I don't profess to know whether God's grace will extend to those who have never heard the gospel and subsequent die without the opportunity to accept Christ. There are some mysteries that will not be revealed to us unto we reach His kingdom. For those who have had the opportunity to hear the gospel, but reject it's message, the consequences are more explicit.
It sounds to me as if you are at least recognizing that the Bible doesn't give us every bit of information we need to solve this dilemma. You agree that it's a "mystery." To me, you have just made a very significant discovery:

The Bible may very well be "incomplete" in terms of telling us everything that God wants us to know. Why would He leave such an important issue unresolved? The next logical step, in my opinion, would be to not just assume that we need to wait until we get to His kingdom to learn the answers.
 
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