Christians only: Please help me understand!

[Katzpur]

Hyper Calvinists have told me that God the potter created some for honor and some for dishonor.... why?

Well, I'm afraid I can't answer this one because my perspective is about as far from that of a "Hyper-Calvinist" as it is possible to be. I'm curious, though... Do you believe God created some for dishonor?

The primitive man who was led to leave his village and seek knowledge about a god he had never heard the name of before... why?

Again, I don't know. But I absolutely loved your story. I actually tried giving you more frubals, but apparently I'm not spreading them around sufficiently.

 

[Katzpur]

Having lived on this earth, most people will argue that you can see that there is some kind of God. Romans 1: 18-21 Talks about how everyone is without excuse.

C.S. Lewis talks about an inherant knowing of what is right and wrong. We can determine that killing is wrong and that loving one another is right. Once someone comes to the conclusion that there is a God, he would understand that he is accountable to this "entity." A wrong or sinful action would result from something less of God. The person in question could then realize the need for repentance. This can also be backed by the fact that most remote religions have some kind of sacrifice that pleases their "gods." From there it could be rationalized that there could only be one "god" because by the term "god" your implying that it is something all powerful. The question there becomes can there be more than one all powerful entity? Moving along in the train of thoughts, the person in question has no learned he needs repentance. In the book of Joel, it states that those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, and i believe that is as far as one needs to go. I have not been able to find an article on this, but i was told a story that a man in Japan once went through this thought process and denounced his religion to follow God. Believe it or not i guess.
It is not that God is unloving that people would be condemned to go to hell, but because He is just. Something that is sinful cannot dwell in a place where sin is forbidden to dwell in can it? I ask this because this is the question that i am presently dealing with.

You've made some good points, but again, there is a difference between inherently knowing the difference between right and wrong and accepting Jesus Christ as the only means by which we can be forgiven of our sins. What about the millions of good Muslims in the world today? (Since I know some of them personally, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume there are others.) They are evidently choosing right over wrong, at least according to the knowledge they have. But clearly, they do not have the faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior that the Bible insists they must have.

 

[Happier]

Well, I'm afraid I can't answer this one because my perspective is about as far from that of a "Hyper-Calvinist" as it is possible to be. I'm curious, though... Do you believe God created some for dishonor?

Again, I don't know. But I absolutely loved your story. I actually tried giving you more frubals, but apparently I'm not spreading them around sufficiently.

Hey Katzpur, thanks for the frubals.

As to the questions... I honestly don't know. It all leads me back to the absolute sovereignty of God, which is something I ponder all the time and try to keep focused on throughout my life.

Really, either God is sovereign or he isn't. I didn't make this stuff up:

[SIZE=-1]I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

[/SIZE]"Therefore he has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." (Rom. 9:18)

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21)

"Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD." (Ex. 14:4)

Hard, very hard truths for all to absorb. Definitely not for baby Christians.

 

[MasterOblivion]

God said only those who accept Jesus as their savior may come into heaven. but God also does not judge everyone the same, he judges you according to your heart. God put it into our heads that there really is a God. wether u accept it or not, its there. Most of those Indian tribes believe in Great Spirit or power of some sort, in other words a God. I believe God will be merciful for them. but for those who have heard about God and Jesus and the way to be saved and they dont accept it then they will go to hell.

 

[Quiddity]

God said only those who accept Jesus as their savior may come into heaven. but God also does not judge everyone the same, he judges you according to your heart. God put it into our heads that there really is a God. wether u accept it or not, its there. Most of those Indian tribes believe in Great Spirit or power of some sort, in other words a God. I believe God will be merciful for them. but for those who have heard about God and Jesus and the way to be saved and they dont accept it then they will go to hell.

Well you personally cannot know this. Since you DO NOT know their hearts. So why say it?

 

[Arrow]

You've made some good points, but again, there is a difference between inherently knowing the difference between right and wrong and accepting Jesus Christ as the only means by which we can be forgiven of our sins. What about the millions of good Muslims in the world today? (Since I know some of them personally, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume there are others.) They are evidently choosing right over wrong, at least according to the knowledge they have. But clearly, they do not have the faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior that the Bible insists they must have.

I kinda got at this issue with my other thread, how powerful is Satan. It gets to a point of how is somone supposed to know truth without a Bible, Koran, ect... I am still working on trying to figure this out. I am sure that everyone will be exstatic to read my thread when it finally does hit me. If it hits me that is. And for today and tomorrow i think that every post should end with a bright happy smile. Starting now. Btw i think i need some sleep.

 

[Baerly]

Let us start with the idea that babies are lost when they die. This is Calvinist teaching . The bible teaches that were fearfully and wonderfully made
(Psalms 139:14). A child is born innocent and he remains that way till the point where they CHOOSE to do wrong (Rom.3:23)(1John3:4).This is something Calvinist had rather not talk about since they believe babies are born totally depraved, evil and without any good within themselves.Anyone who believes this thinks any child who dies will be lost,when in fact the opposite happens when a child dies. (Matt.19:14) tells us Jesus said to allow the children to come to him,for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Doesn't sound like children will be lost to me when I hear Jesus speaking about them.
* How about the idea that we have a second chance to learn the gospel and obey it after death? We learn in (Heb.9:27) that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die,but after this the judgment. Doesn't sound like to me that there will be a second chance. You die and then there is the judgment. No second chance in the word of God. It is because of verses like these that many try to discredit the bible,because its teachings directly oppose certain peoples doctrine.

* How about the idea that Jesus spoke to people after they died and gave them a second chance to obey the gospel? Let us look at (1Peter 3:18-19).We must note that (vs 20) explains (vs 19). Jesus went and preached to those in prison.Question, WHEN did he do this? (vs 20) tells us WHEN,it was DURING THE DAYS OF NOAH. not after the people died. Jesus actually had a part in teaching people during the Old Testament. Please note (1Cor.10:4) says that those in the Old Testament partook of a spiritual ROCK and that ROCK was CHRIST.We must let the bible define itself.

Please notice (Luke 4:18),it says the (spirit of the Lord) is upon me,because he hath annointed me to preach the gospel to the poor: He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to PREACH DELIVERANCE to the CAPTIVES, and recovering the site to the blind,to set at LIBERTY those that are bruised (Luke 4:18). Here we have the prophet preaching a message that would set at LIBERTY those who were CAPTIVE during the Old Testament, NOT after death, but during the Old Testament while they were living.They were CAPTIVES of SIN. We can read more about this in the New Testament. we read about people in the New Testament being SERVANTS of SIN? Then we read in (Rom.6:16-18) we learn that sin keeps us captive.We are servant to sin if we yeild to sin.But notice how they were SET FREE. (vs 17) Tells us that when they OBEYED from the heart that FORM OF DOCTRINE that was delivered to them, being then made FREE FROM SIN. They had OBEYED THAT GOSPEL back in (Rom.6:3-6). Obeying that GOSPEL actually set them FREE FROM SIN (Rom.6:18). Then we read in (Acts 22:16) That Pauls SINS was WASHED AWAY in exactly the same way.When Paul was Baptized his sins were WASHED AWAY IN WATER BAPTISM and NOT BEFORE. Everyone today must obey that same form of doctrine to rid themselves of SIN.When we do this the blood of Jesus washes us clean of our sins (Eph.1:7)(COl.2:12)(Titus 3:5)(Eph.5:26). But this is all while we are living NOT after we pass from this life.(Luke 16) teaches us that after we pass from this life, those who are saved cannot communicate with those who are in torment. The reason is because there is a great gulf that cannot be crossed (Luke 16:26).Neither can anyone go back to the earth (Luke 16:31). -in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

God said only those who accept Jesus as their savior may come into heaven. but God also does not judge everyone the same, he judges you according to your heart. God put it into our heads that there really is a God. wether u accept it or not, its there. Most of those Indian tribes believe in Great Spirit or power of some sort, in other words a God. I believe God will be merciful for them. but for those who have heard about God and Jesus and the way to be saved and they dont accept it then they will go to hell.

May I suggest that Jesus himself said He was THE WAY,THE TRUTH,and THE LIFE: NO MAN cometh to the father but by me (John 14:6). All human beings who are of the age of accountability and who have their right mind must go through Jesus to get to the father in heaven.When Jesus said THE WAY he meant there is ONLY ONE WAY and it is by me (JESUS). People have claimed to tell truth.But I know of no one who claimed to be THE TRUTH. There is no alternative way to heaven.Jesus is the ONLY MEDIATOR (Heb.9:15).Jesus said he that doeth my will will go to heaven (Matt.7:21)- in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

Moving along in the train of thoughts, the person in question has no learned he needs repentance. In the book of Joel, it states that those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, and i believe that is as far as one needs to go.


Arrow, How are you? I read your above statement and I know alot of people think all they must do, is say aloud that they believe on the Lord and they will be saved
(Matt 7:21). Now if they bible says that I believe it. But the problem is we must also let the bible define what calling on the Lord is. This is a very important point. It might make the difference in us doing OUR WILL or THE WILL OF JESUS
(JOHN 14:15,21 ; 15:14).
The prophet Joels passage is brought up in (Acts 2:21).But let us go to the bible and let the word of God tell us exactly what calling on the name of the Lord is. Saul was blinded on the road to Damascus.After realizing the Lord was speaking to him he was frightened (vs 4).In (vs 6) Saul asked the Lord what would he have him to do? The Lord gave him instructions to go into the city and it shall be told thee what thou MUST DO. Saul was blinded which was a sign of him being in darkness spiritually. Men had to actually guide him to the city of Damascus. He was there three days without food or his sight (vs 9). Saul turning from hurting and killing christians to obeying the Lord was a act of repentance.But he still had his sins according to the bible.Then we come to (Acts 22:16). In (Acts 22:16) We find the apostle Pauls conversion. He has been blind,praying,he had repented and yet he still has his sins. Remember he already called on the name of the Lord on the road (Acts 9:5),but he still has his sins in (Acts 22:16).

Saul was told to do four things in this verse.This is what the Lord wanted him to do.
1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Your Sins Away
4. CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD

Please notice Sauls sins was NOT WASHED AWAY till he was BAPTIZED IN WATER.Notice also the word CALLING. ING actually means something is presently going on now. So the ING on the word CALLING actually means that as Saul was CALLING ON THE LORD as he was being baptized. If we say the kids are playING in the yard. That means they are doing it presently. So when we obey our Lords commandments we are calling on the name of the Lord. This is how the bible defines calling on the name of the Lord. I hope people will accept this bible definition. I know it is not popular,but Jesus did not come to this earth to make us popular.He said I come to bring a sword (Matt.10:34). Our sword is the word of God (Eph.6:17).
Please do not get upset at the simplicity of this very important lesson.Some do and I am sad they decide to get mad rather than accept a bible principle.
- in love Baerly

 

[Baerly]

Hey Katzpur, thanks for the frubals.

As to the questions... I honestly don't know. It all leads me back to the absolute sovereignty of God, which is something I ponder all the time and try to keep focused on throughout my life.

Really, either God is sovereign or he isn't. I didn't make this stuff up:

[SIZE=-1]I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

[/SIZE]"Therefore he has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." (Rom. 9:18)

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21)

"Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD." (Ex. 14:4)

Hard, very hard truths for all to absorb. Definitely not for baby Christians.

It has been said That the same sun that melts the butter,hardens the clay.

How could that be, when the same sun is beaming down on both the butter and the clay.

The answer is in the makeup of the clay and the butter.

How we respond to God, depends on how we accept or reject his authority.

Pharoah had a hard time setting his pride aside and submitting to the word of God

After awhile Pharoah did submit to Gods authority,but it was after much damage was done.

People are the same way today.Many will not accept that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven (John 14:6). (2 Peter 1:3) tells us that God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. We need nothing more. -in love Baerly