Christians only: Repentence

[tomspug]

Or......you can doubt your conversion because of certain things you've done in your life and be re-born again......and again......and again.

I don't think that's Biblical. If you doubt your conversion then ask for salvation, that isn't being born again... again. It's being born again, for the first and only time.

 

[Sola'lor]

Do you have a Biblical passage that confirms this?

I don't think there is a scripture that says this exactly. I'm just using my own personal experiences with the practical application of repentence.

I gave a talk on this in church a few months ago. I'll have to get it out and see what scriptures I used.

 

[sojourner]

I don't disagree with you. However, do you believe SALVATION requires you to repent constantly? That is the question that should be on this poll.

Salvation doesn't hinge upon repentance. It hinges upon God's grace.

 

[sojourner]

What about not repenting? How exactly does that get you closer to God?

Of course we should all do things that get us closer to God, but that assumes there are things that don't get you closer to God.

We're not talking about an apophatic dynamic here. I said that we should do whatever brings us closer to God.

 

[madhatter85]

Salvation doesn't hinge upon repentance. It hinges upon God's grace.

why would Christ give grace to those who weren't sorry? why is it unneccisary when in the bible, COUNTLESS times we are commanded to repent. Why would Christ tell people to repent if it were unnessicary?

 

[Captain Civic]

why would Christ give grace to those who weren't sorry? why is it unneccisary when in the bible, COUNTLESS times we are commanded to repent. Why would Christ tell people to repent if it were unnessicary?

It's not necessary for salvation, it's necessary for spiritual growth.

 

[sojourner]

why would Christ give grace to those who weren't sorry?

Because Christ's paradigm is love, and love is unconditional.

 

[madhatter85]

Because Christ's paradigm is love, and love is unconditional.

see you don;t think there is such a thing as justice, And also you believe in a trinity. So this argument is pointless seeing as you don't Believe in the same idea of God as we do.

 

[sojourner]

see you don;t think there is such a thing as justice, And also you believe in a trinity. So this argument is pointless seeing as you don't Believe in the same idea of God as we do.

I believe love trumps justice. I believe that the joining of God with humanity in the person of Jesus forms the very heart of the Christian faith.

 

[madhatter85]

I believe love trumps justice. I believe that the joining of God with humanity in the person of Jesus forms the very heart of the Christian faith.

I believ both Love and Justice co-exist. Christ said that he came into the world to satisfy the demands of justice, and to be our advocate. If love trumped justice then there would be no need of a savior. Christ would have no place in the plan. there would be no need of him dying for our Sins. The fact remains is that Justice needs to be met, Always. which is why Christ came down on our behalf to pay the price for sin. Mercy can satisfy the demands of justice through the plan of redemption.

Alma 42:

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

God created laws, like Justice. which is not a man made law.

Gen 18:19

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Job 8:

3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?

Job 37:

23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.

Psalms 89:

6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
...
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
...
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
...
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

God is Justice, if he did not meet the demands of Justice he would cease to be God. he would break his own Laws. God does not contradict himself nor does he pretend laws he will not keep.

 

[sojourner]

which is why Christ came down on our behalf to pay the price for sin. Mercy can satisfy the demands of justice through the plan of redemption.

That only works if one espoused substitutionary atonement. I do not.

God created laws, like Justice. which is not a man made law.

Quoting from the BOM won't prove your point with me. Justice is not "a law." Justice is fiar treatment. So, you believe that human beings are capable of doing something that would separate them from God for ever? Human beings can trump God's desire for us to be with God? Even though that stance is patently not biblical? (Where can I go to hide from you?...Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ...etc.) what's fair about eternal condemnation? Even we weak human beings decry the death penalty.

God is Justice, if he did not meet the demands of Justice he would cease to be God. he would break his own Laws. God does not contradict himself nor does he pretend laws he will not keep.

God chose to fulfill God's Law in the Incarnation. But you don't understand this, because you don't believe that God became one of us, to reconcile us to God's Self.

 

[Katzpur]

That only works if one espoused substitutionary atonement. I do not.

I'm curious, sojourner, how would you describe Christ's Atonement if it was not substitutionary? Or do you even consider His suffering to have been an Atonement? I'm not trying to be difficult; I just don't understand.

God chose to fulfill God's Law in the Incarnation. But you don't understand this, because you don't believe that God became one of us, to reconcile us to God's Self.

Sure we do. We just don't believe that God the Father became one of us. Instead He sent His Only Begotten Son -- who was also "God."

 

[sojourner]

I'm curious, sojourner, how would you describe Christ's Atonement if it was not substitutionary? Or do you even consider His suffering to have been an Atonement? I'm not trying to be difficult; I just don't understand.

I don't believe that Christ's death was an atonement at all. It was an act of terrorism. Christ's example of faith in keeping true to his word points us toward salvation, however. God was given lemons. God made lemonade.

Sure we do. We just don't believe that God the Father became one of us. Instead He sent His Only Begotten Son -- who was also "God."

That's dangerously close to a Trinitarian statement. Trinitarian doctrine says that God the Son became one of us -- not God the Father. or God the Spirit.

 

[madhatter85]

That only works if one espoused substitutionary atonement. I do not.

Quoting from the BOM won't prove your point with me. Justice is not "a law." Justice is fiar treatment. So, you believe that human beings are capable of doing something that would separate them from God for ever? Human beings can trump God's desire for us to be with God? Even though that stance is patently not biblical? (Where can I go to hide from you?...Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ...etc.) what's fair about eternal condemnation? Even we weak human beings decry the death penalty.

God chose to fulfill God's Law in the Incarnation. But you don't understand this, because you don't believe that God became one of us, to reconcile us to God's Self.

I quoted one verse of the BoM to show you what we believe. the rest was all biblical about justice being an eternal Law and that God is Just.

God could not have come down and atoned for us himself, he had to send his son because he already has a Physical Body because he was once like us.

 

[madhatter85]

I don't believe that Christ's death was an atonement at all. It was an act of terrorism. Christ's example of faith in keeping true to his word points us toward salvation, however. God was given lemons. God made lemonade.

That's dangerously close to a Trinitarian statement. Trinitarian doctrine says that God the Son became one of us -- not God the Father. or God the Spirit.

So God made up the bit about Christ Dying for our sins Improv? give me a break.

Why did Christ say "To this end came i into the world", and why would he beg the father to take the cup from him?

Saying God made lemonade out of lemons would be sayign that he was suprised by mankind's actions......


Err, you are saying they are 3 distinct beings now. which is it? are they 1 being or 3? there is no Both. either 1 being with 3 names or 3 distinct and separate beings united in purpose?

 

[sojourner]

God could not have come down and atoned for us himself, he had to send his son because he already has a Physical Body because he was once like us.

God didn't atone for us. But God did become one of us -- not just like us -- one of us. That was Jesus. In the Incarnation, God took on human flesh. But I don't believe for one second that God the Father has a human body. God has never been like us -- but we may become like God.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe that Christ's death was an atonement at all. It was an act of terrorism. Christ's example of faith in keeping true to his word points us toward salvation, however. God was given lemons. God made lemonade.

Are you saying that Christ was powerless against his murderers then? In other words, do you see any purpose in His torture and subsequent death by crucifixion?

That's dangerously close to a Trinitarian statement. Trinitarian doctrine says that God the Son became one of us -- not God the Father. or God the Spirit.

Well, if it seems close to to trinitarian in your mind, there's not much I can do about that. I'm surprised that this statement surprises you.

 

[madhatter85]

God didn't atone for us. But God did become one of us -- not just like us -- one of us. That was Jesus. In the Incarnation, God took on human flesh. But I don't believe for one second that God the Father has a human body. God has never been like us -- but we may become like God.

???????????

you say

God didn't atone for us... But God did become one of us -- not just like us -- one of us.

then you say

God has never been like us

what? which is it? you believe God to be the same person as Jesus. If god came down and got a physical body, Died, and then resurrected later "Never to be separated again" then why does he not have a physical body now?

 

[sojourner]

So God made up the bit about Christ Dying for our sins Improv? give me a break.

When did God ever say that Christ would die for our sins?

Why did Christ say "To this end came i into the world", and why would he beg the father to take the cup from him?

Would you want to be crucified??? Christ came here to show us the way -- not through sacrifice, but through obedience.

Saying God made lemonade out of lemons would be sayign that he was suprised by mankind's actions......

I don't think God was surprised. but I think that God took an incredibly insane, cruel human act and triumphed over it...much as one knows one is buying lemons, but plans to use the squeezer later on.

Err, you are saying they are 3 distinct beings now. which is it? are they 1 being or 3? there is no Both. either 1 being with 3 names or 3 distinct and separate beings united in purpose?

Three Persons, one Being. There most certainly is a "both." One Being has three Persons -- not three names.

 

[madhatter85]

When did God ever say that Christ would die for our sins?

Would you want to be crucified??? Christ came here to show us the way -- not through sacrifice, but through obedience.

I don't think God was surprised. but I think that God took an incredibly insane, cruel human act and triumphed over it...much as one knows one is buying lemons, but plans to use the squeezer later on.

Three Persons, one Being. There most certainly is a "both." One Being has three Persons -- not three names.

you forgot to address the first thing i quoted from Christ about him comign into the world to Die.

but you said he was given lemons? how can anyone give God anything? If god is not perfect he would cease to be God.

no it can not be three persons and one being, please describe how it is physically possible. unless you mean they are triplets? what? you make no sense.