Christians only: Repentence

[sojourner]

Are you saying that Christ was powerless against his murderers then? In other words, do you see any purpose in His torture and subsequent death by crucifixion?

Not at all. Christ could have escaped. He could have run away. But that would have compromised his integrity in the eyes of his followers.
Yes, I do. By his death, he destroyed death.

Well, if it seems close to to trinitarian in your mind, there's not much I can do about that. I'm surprised that this statement surprises you.

I'm kind of surprised that one could make that statement and still not call oneself "Trinitarian."

 

[sojourner]

what? which is it? you believe God to be the same person as Jesus. If god came down and got a physical body, Died, and then resurrected later "Never to be separated again" then why does he not have a physical body now?

I didn't say taht God was the same person as Jesus. I said that Jesus is God Incarnate. There's a subtle difference. I don't know that Jesus doesn't have a physical body now. I suspect that he does not. But I don't believe that God the Father had a physical body, or was once a human being before God became the God of us.

 

[sojourner]

no it can not be three persons and one being, please describe how it is physically possible. unless you mean they are triplets? what? you make no sense.

Did I say it was "physically possible?" No.

God is one Being, in three Persons.

 

[madhatter85]

I didn't say taht God was the same person as Jesus. I said that Jesus is God Incarnate. There's a subtle difference. I don't know that Jesus doesn't have a physical body now. I suspect that he does not. But I don't believe that God the Father had a physical body, or was once a human being before God became the God of us.

If having a Physical body was such a bad thing, why would Chrsit take a physical Body? why would we be given physical Bodies and then promised never to loose them again after we are resurrected?

 

[madhatter85]

Did I say it was "physically possible?" No.

God is one Being, in three Persons.

if it is not physically possible then how can it be?

If anything was divinely possible, then why must we go through mortality? why must we be tested? could it not be done another way?

Why would repentance be taught if it was unnessicary?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm kind of surprised that one could make that statement and still not call oneself "Trinitarian."

Well, I've never yet been accused of being a trinitarian, and I don't consider myself to be one, but my statement stands.

 

[Captain Civic]

if it is not physically possible then how can it be?

Last time I checked, God wasn't bound by physical possibilites.

 

[Katzpur]

Last time I checked, God wasn't bound by physical possibilites.

Was He ever? Jesus Christ had a body when He commanded the elements to "Be still!" Unless you think that He was unable to do that without His Father's help, I'd say that there is absolutely no argument to support the premise that a physical body would limit God in any way.

 

[Captain Civic]

Was He ever? Jesus Christ had a body when He commanded the elements to "Be still!" Unless you think that He was unable to do that without His Father's help, I'd say that there is absolutely no argument to support the premise that a physical body would limit God in any way.

Different circumstances. My implication was that God is outside of physical matter, therefore not subject to its laws.

 

[sojourner]

If having a Physical body was such a bad thing, why would Chrsit take a physical Body? why would we be given physical Bodies and then promised never to loose them again after we are resurrected?

I didn't say that having a physical body is a bad thing. I said that God was never human, until the Incarnation in Jesus.
God became Incarnate in order to reconcile us to God's Self.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information that we never lose our physical bodies after we are resurrected.

 

[sojourner]

if it is not physically possible then how can it be?

If anything was divinely possible, then why must we go through mortality? why must we be tested? could it not be done another way?

Why would repentance be taught if it was unnessicary?

It can be spiritually possible.

Because we are mortal. I don't believe we are tested.

Repentance is necessary for us to live into the reconciliation that is offered. but it is not what saves us.

 

[Katzpur]

Different circumstances. My implication was that God is outside of physical matter, therefore not subject to its laws.

The fact remains that Jesus Christ had a human body and it did not in any way limit Him. Whether you believe that His Father has a physical body or not, it is impossible to argue that such a body is limiting. Jesus Christ is proof that it is not.

 

[madhatter85]

Different circumstances. My implication was that God is outside of physical matter, therefore not subject to its laws.

All spirit is matter, there is no such thing as immaterial matter.

"Nothing" does not exist.

 

[madhatter85]

It can be spiritually possible.

Because we are mortal. I don't believe we are tested.

Repentance is necessary for us to live into the reconciliation that is offered. but it is not what saves us.

Sprits are physical though, they exist. I have seen them, felt them and heard them. they are just refined farther than what we can possibly see with our unrefined vision. we are imperfect and cannot see them without God's help.

the smallest known particles of matter are quarks and leptons. when they appear and we can detect them, they decay into smaller particles which we do not have the equipment to detect. there is always something more refined than what we can see, Matter is eternal, it is impossible to destory matter, it is only possible to change it's state.

 

[Captain Civic]

The fact remains that Jesus Christ had a human body and it did not in any way limit Him. Whether you believe that His Father has a physical body or not, it is impossible to argue that such a body is limiting. Jesus Christ is proof that it is not.

I think it limited Him, although not to the point of a normal human. He could only speak to one person at once, physically be in one place at once (although it seemed He still knew everything), took on physical pain, hunger, exhaustion, thirst and mindset of humans. I would say that's a little limiting.

All spirit is matter, there is no such thing as immaterial matter.

"Nothing" does not exist.

I didn't argue that God is "nothing". He exists. But he isn't confined by this world's laws. He isn't confined by space. He isn't confined by time. He created them, and is outside of them. I think it's a hard concept to understand, and I sometimes struggle with it. But I think it's the truth.

 

[Katzpur]

I think it limited Him, although not to the point of a normal human. He could only speak to one person at once, physically be in one place at once (although it seemed He still knew everything), took on physical pain, hunger, exhaustion, thirst and mindset of humans. I would say that's a little limiting.

and yet He could control the elements by merely speaking, He could turn a few fish and a couple of loaves of bread into a feast for thousands, and He could raise the dead. I think that more than offsets the fact that He experienced the same things that we as mortals do. I would agree that He could only physically be in one place at a time, but if His power and knowledge extended everywhere in the universe at once, I don't see the fact that He was not physically present in more than one place at the same time as a very big deal at all.

 

[sojourner]

Sprits are physical though, they exist. I have seen them, felt them and heard them. they are just refined farther than what we can possibly see with our unrefined vision. we are imperfect and cannot see them without God's help.

the smallest known particles of matter are quarks and leptons. when they appear and we can detect them, they decay into smaller particles which we do not have the equipment to detect. there is always something more refined than what we can see, Matter is eternal, it is impossible to destory matter, it is only possible to change it's state.

There's a fundamental disagreement here with regard to what it is that constitutes "spirit." Even if the spiritual is "physical" in some way, that "spiritual" physicality that we cannot understand does not translate into a physical, human form that we do know and understand. It's something completely foreign to the human experience.

You're hedging your bets. What you're saying is that God has a physical body, and that that body is in a spiritual form. Yet, you also say that God was "just like us" at some point in time. There is nothing in either the Biblical record, or the theological record of God's people that support this theory. Your statement completely undermines the need for the Incarnation of Jesus, according to the most ancient and orthodox understanding of the Incarnation.

The Bible states that God is Spirit -- not that God is Body. That fundamental understanding of difference between the human and the Divine is extant from Genesis 1. All attempts of human to blur the distinction are thwarted. In orthodox Christian understanding, it is God's Incarnation -- becoming fully human -- that reconciles us, not our becoming "like God."

 

[doppelganger]

The idea of spirits, as generally presented, for the longest time seemed like empty superstition to me until I came to understand what they represent mythologically. "Spirits" are ideas about identity. They "exist" in my thoughts about them and the effect they have on the way I relate to the universe of things and beings we experience.

The "Spirit of Christmas", the "Spirit of Giving" and the "Holy Spirit" are all of a kind. The "Team Spirit" among Nebraska football fans, although a different sort of spirit, functions in a similar way.

 

[sojourner]

The idea of spirits, as generally presented, for the longest time seemed like empty superstition to me until I came to understand what they represent mythologically. "Spirits" are ideas about identity. They "exist" in my thoughts about them and the effect they have on the way I relate to the universe of things and beings we experience.

The "Spirit of Christmas", the "Spirit of Giving" and the "Holy Spirit" are all of a kind. The "Team Spirit" among Nebraska football fans, although a different sort of spirit, functions in a similar way.

What is the team spirit among Neb. football fans? Jack, or Jim, or Johnny?

 

[Hope]

I believ both Love and Justice co-exist. Christ said that he came into the world to satisfy the demands of justice, and to be our advocate. If love trumped justice then there would be no need of a savior. Christ would have no place in the plan. there would be no need of him dying for our Sins. The fact remains is that Justice needs to be met, Always. which is why Christ came down on our behalf to pay the price for sin. Mercy can satisfy the demands of justice through the plan of redemption.


God is Justice, if he did not meet the demands of Justice he would cease to be God. he would break his own Laws. God does not contradict himself nor does he pretend laws he will not keep.

It's a rare thing for me to agree with you, but on this point I do. Well said.