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Christians Only - What points of doctrine can I get wrong and still make it to Heaven
- Thread starter Squirt
- Start date
Thank you for noticing. I asked it especially with you and joeboonda in mind.angellous_evangellous said:
Yeah, I think you've mentioned that a time or two. I'm not going to get into the "different Jesus" argument with you again, but as far as different heavens go, all I can say to that is "Thank God!"
By the way, did you notice I emptied your beers down the toilet?
Actually, my question was asked partly in jest. I posted it primarily because I was in the mood to be a thorn in the side of my two favorite holier-than-thou Baptists. I don't believe that God is going to forbid anyone from going to heaven due to a misunderstanding of a few doctrines. He's not anywhere near that petty.sojourner said:
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(King James Bible, 2 Corinthians)
2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(King James Bible, Galatians)
for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
(King James Bible, 2 Timothy)
Okay, Hi, I see this was a question partly in jest, yet it is a good question. My fervent hope, truly, is that we do, somehow trust in the same, the 'right' Jesus. It is something that deserves study, for Paul in the verses above, first, let me say, that He said, WE HAVE BELIEVED, and I HAVE BELIEVED, PAST TENSE, in other words, on a specific day, we trusted Christ, that His death paid for our sins, and when we did we were imputed with His righteousnes, ALL our sins were paid for, past present and future, we were sealed by the Spirit, baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ, adopted as children into God's family, made new creatures, and many other things. This happenned when we FIRST BELIEVED, and HE, JESUS, is able to keep us, to keep that which we have committed to Him against that day.
Now, the part I was getting to, that is worthy of study, is the first verses, Paul warned them not to be deceived, by someone preaching another Christ or gospel (way of salvation). What Christ did Paul preach? Well, we have Paul's writings in the Bible, and the BIble as a whole to measure any other teaching. If it does not square up exactly to what the Bible says, then it may not be the same gospel or Christ as found in the Bible. The Bible says salvation is a FREE GIFT, we cannot earn it or work for it, and it is very clear about that. We believe on, trust in, Christ's work on the cross and we are saved. Works follow as a result, not to earn or keep salvation. This is the Bible gospel plan of salvation. The Christ of the Bible is Immanuel, God with us. Not, a god with us. (I am not saying LDS specificaly believe or don't believe that) The Christ of the Bible is therefore God. God the Father is God, and God the Son is God, they cannot be 2 different Gods, for the Lord our God is ONE God. They must be one God. So Jesus must be God in every sense that the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. I am getting in deep, I know, but this is only ONE doctrine of Christ, the Christ of the Bible, and there are more. For instance, if we believe Christ is God, and has been from EVERLASTING, HE created the angels. Satan is a fallen ANGEL, not a 'spirit brother' of Christ. That is blasphemy of the name of Christ. pure and simple. It is a different Christ, and this is what I think Paul was warning us of. I won't go into any more of the differences, it is just something to think about. As I said, I hope and pray we have the same Jesus, and same Gospel, but the Mormon plan of salvation is not the SIMPLICITY, that is the Bible plan of salvation, imo.
11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(King James Bible, 2 Corinthians)
2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(King James Bible, Galatians)
for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
(King James Bible, 2 Timothy)
Okay, Hi, I see this was a question partly in jest, yet it is a good question. My fervent hope, truly, is that we do, somehow trust in the same, the 'right' Jesus. It is something that deserves study, for Paul in the verses above, first, let me say, that He said, WE HAVE BELIEVED, and I HAVE BELIEVED, PAST TENSE, in other words, on a specific day, we trusted Christ, that His death paid for our sins, and when we did we were imputed with His righteousnes, ALL our sins were paid for, past present and future, we were sealed by the Spirit, baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ, adopted as children into God's family, made new creatures, and many other things. This happenned when we FIRST BELIEVED, and HE, JESUS, is able to keep us, to keep that which we have committed to Him against that day.
Now, the part I was getting to, that is worthy of study, is the first verses, Paul warned them not to be deceived, by someone preaching another Christ or gospel (way of salvation). What Christ did Paul preach? Well, we have Paul's writings in the Bible, and the BIble as a whole to measure any other teaching. If it does not square up exactly to what the Bible says, then it may not be the same gospel or Christ as found in the Bible. The Bible says salvation is a FREE GIFT, we cannot earn it or work for it, and it is very clear about that. We believe on, trust in, Christ's work on the cross and we are saved. Works follow as a result, not to earn or keep salvation. This is the Bible gospel plan of salvation. The Christ of the Bible is Immanuel, God with us. Not, a god with us. (I am not saying LDS specificaly believe or don't believe that) The Christ of the Bible is therefore God. God the Father is God, and God the Son is God, they cannot be 2 different Gods, for the Lord our God is ONE God. They must be one God. So Jesus must be God in every sense that the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. I am getting in deep, I know, but this is only ONE doctrine of Christ, the Christ of the Bible, and there are more. For instance, if we believe Christ is God, and has been from EVERLASTING, HE created the angels. Satan is a fallen ANGEL, not a 'spirit brother' of Christ. That is blasphemy of the name of Christ. pure and simple. It is a different Christ, and this is what I think Paul was warning us of. I won't go into any more of the differences, it is just something to think about. As I said, I hope and pray we have the same Jesus, and same Gospel, but the Mormon plan of salvation is not the SIMPLICITY, that is the Bible plan of salvation, imo.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Squirt said:Thank you for noticing. I asked it especially with you and joeboonda in mind.
Yeah, I think you've mentioned that a time or two. I'm not going to get into the "different Jesus" argument with you again, but as far as different heavens go, all I can say to that is "Thank God!"
By the way, did you notice I emptied your beers down the toilet?
I noticed that you said that you would empty the beer, but I didn't know that you could remove the gift!:sad4:
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Squirt said:
I'm not a Baptist, if you were referring to me. And, I never said that belief in the LDS Christ excludes people from heaven. In fact, I said the opposite.
Thanks for the rant. Now perhaps you would be so kind as to actually answer my questions. Will believing the following keep someone from going to heaven? (You see, I'm not a child, so I'm not going to be able to use that as an excuse.)joeboonda said:
1. Faith without works is dead. Therefore, if one professes a faith in Christ but does not manifest that faith through obedience, his faith is not really faith at all.
2. God is not His own Son nor His own Father. The Father and the Son are two divine beings who are one in will and purpose, one is power and glory, and one in all of the attributes that make them "God."
3. The pre-mortal Jesus Christ had a spirit brother, another of God's offspring whose name was Lucifer. This individual rebelled against God and was cast out of His Father's presence forever.
Now, if I may remind you -- since it has been a whole 90 or so words since I last made this request -- I do not wish to debate these doctrines. I do not wish to know why you believe them to be in error. I simply want to know whether you personally think that a person can believe these things and still go to Heaven. Please, please, please recognize that I already know you consider my beliefs blasphemous. You don't need to tell me that yet another time. What I am trying to determine is whether you think God will forgive "blasphemous" beliefs or if the only people He will permit to join Him in Heaven are those who believe exactly as you do. If you believe that only those individuals whose understanding is as perfect as yours will go to Heaven, please provide some scriptural basis to substantiate your belief that God only allows those into Heaven whose beliefs about Him are 100% accurate.
PHOTOTAKER
Well-Known Member
Squirt said:
i don't thank anyone will be able to answer this for you... i thank you have to answer this for yourself. you know what you believe; keep to it. i don't thank it matter what anyone else thanks as long as you belief and live a good life and stay true to the sprit of god this is all my rant hope it helps
I will have a go at your examples.
I cannot see how one holding this belief would be barred from salvation. As long as they believed the scriptures i last posted in this thread.
I am not sure about this one.
I believe a person who believed this would not have salvation with God in eternity. This is believing in another jesus.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I cannot see how one holding this belief would be barred from salvation. As long as they believed the scriptures i last posted in this thread.
I am not sure about this one.
I believe a person who believed this would not have salvation with God in eternity. This is believing in another jesus.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Squirt said:
You correctly remember that I used to be. I have not been a Baptist for at least six years, long before I first posted on RF.
EDIT: I can't help but observe that you seem to have ignored this:
Angellous said:
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
OK, I have seen this thread for days now, and couldn't think of the proper way to put this. But I think I'll give it a try.
You can get them all wrong if you want.
We are all given the free will to advance spiritually at what ever pace we want to. My mom always said, "we can do this the easy way or the hard way, but we will do it one way or the other."
You can get them all wrong if you want.
We are all given the free will to advance spiritually at what ever pace we want to. My mom always said, "we can do this the easy way or the hard way, but we will do it one way or the other."
Where does the Bible tell us that the Father and the Son are "of one substance"? I ask, because if the Bible really does say this, I definitely would believe it.Adstar said:
Wow, that's really interesting. So, if I believe something about Jesus that is not explicitely stated in the Bible, and if it turns out I'm wrong, God is going to condemn me to an eternity in Hell. I guess He must not love me very much. :sad4: On the other hand, I suppose that would also mean that if you are wrong, you will be sent to Hell. I find it kind of scary (not to mention rather "un-Christian" of Him) that He wouldn't forgive our honest mistakes, and that our love for Him and for our Savior, and the way we treat our fellow men wouldn't really count for much after all.
I honestly don't want to get any of them wrong, but I don't think very many other people do either. And yet plenty of people are going to, no matter how hard they try.EnhancedSpirit said:
I can pretty much go along with that. But what about the person who is advancing the best he can, but dies before he gets all the answers right?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
What you believe is not near as important as who you love:
Matthew 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' NIV
Matthew 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' NIV
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
They will be able to either complete their advancement in spirit, helping other members of their soul group, or they might choose to reincarnate, and try again on earth.Squirt said:
Squirt said:
I posted scripture before and you said you believed it. Didn't you. Did you read John 1 before you said you agreed with it?
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jesus is the Word right? you believe that right? The Word was God right? you eblieve that too?
Let me ask you. Who is the Alpha and Omega. Who is the Beggining and the End who is the First and the Last ? do you know ?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Of course I did.Adstar said:
Yes, Jesus is the Word. Yes, I believe that. Yes, the Word was God. Yes, I believe that, too.
These are all referring to Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Okay, so now I've answered your questions, how about you answer mine... Where, in the Bible does it say that the Father and the Son are "a single substance"?
John 1:1 says that the Word was God, but it also says that the Word was with God. The Word (Jesus) could very well have been God, but He could not also have been with God if He and His Father were one and the same. The word "with" means "being together, or in the company of." It denotes a relationship of some kind and makes no sense unless it is referring to two distinct entities.
John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word (Jesus) frequently prayed to His Father, almost always referring to Him as being "in Heaven." So, you have Jesus dwelling among us in flesh and His Father dwelling elsewhere and (at least from your perspective) being spirit. How can one substance simultaneously be a corporeal being dwelling on earth and a non-corporeal being dwelling either in heaven or (if you do not believe that God was in Heaven) existing everywhere at once?
If the Father and the Son share the title of God, they are both "God" and yet they can either be with each other, as was the case "in the beginning," or they can be separated, as was the case when Jesus left His Father's presence and came to earth. "A single substance," on the other hand, cannot be with itself nor can it be separated from itself.