Christians Only - What points of doctrine can I get wrong and still make it to Heaven

[Scuba Pete]

I don't pretend to understand why, but God has given us only one way to become a Christian and receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. NIV

Until you become a Christian, you are under the OLD LAW. Once you die to the old Law you are no longer under it. Just like when you pay off your mortgage, you are no longer obliged to pay anymore. The debt has been cancelled.

 

[joeboonda]

Hi all and have a blessed Easter! Been working all week, so just got caught up on this thread. I wanted to say that my understanding is that if one places their trust in what Jesus did on the cross on this good Friday, and I suppose even if they believe different things about Jesus then me, at least I hope, I believe they are saved. Further, I believe salvation is not a reward for being good or more loving, nor is it a process, (we do grow 'in grace'), but salvation is a free gift, which we accept when we hear the good news and believe it and place our trust in what Christ did, accepting, trusting, 'believing on' Jesus, that his death paid for ALL our sins and we were given HIS righteousness as ours is 'filthy rags'. Being a free gift we accept, we accept it on a 'certain' day, as in Acts, where it would say 'and 3,000 souls were added to the church that day. AND, when we accept the free gift on that day, that moment, many things happen to us, one of which is that we are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, or the church. We are saved by grace through faith, works to follow as evidence. Baptism merely a symbolic, public declaration of our faith in Christ, for it is the blood of Christ that washes away our sins, not water. I know folks can use scripture to argue that, and I have scripture of my own, and I don't want to argue it on this thread. I just want to say, I believe no matter what 'church' you are in, even if you are in one that is way out there or way different than straight Bible-believing churches, even if it is clouded in sacraments, rituals, wrong doctrine, legalism, liberalism, or any other thing out of balance, and I am talking ANY church, ANY denomination, all churches have some errors somewhere, for we are only human. I say, that no matter what, IF you trust alone, in Christ alone, that when its all said and done, you just tell Jesus, 'I believe!' , 'I trust you, what you did, that it is sufficient', and just put your complete trust in Jesus and His death and ressurection, if you can at least do that, I would say that you are saved. As far as the 'right' Jesus delemna, I can only say, pray and seek the truth with all your heart, and the Holy Spirit, and much study will reveal this to you. Use the Bible as your MAIN AUTHORITY, if you have other books or scriptures or prophecies or writings, etc. that your group or denomination holds as high as the Bible, for a while, study the Bible and let IT be the plumbline, the cornerstone by which you measure any other doctrine. For there are some doctrines which at first may seem backed by the Bible, but upon further investigation are not, yet a teacher may say their books were written later and supercede the Bible, and I would ask that one go back to the Bible, then compare the doctrines. The prophets, Jesus, Paul and the Apostles brought God's Word to us, God's gospel. Measure your beliefs by that standard and if they deviate from that, then I would question it and renounce it. That's my answer for now.

Have a Wonderful Easter!

Mike

 

[Squirt]

Hi all and have a blessed Easter! Been working all week, so just got caught up on this thread. I wanted to say that my understanding is that if one places their trust in what Jesus did on the cross on this good Friday, and I suppose even if they believe different things about Jesus then me, at least I hope, I believe they are saved. Further, I believe salvation is not a reward for being good or more loving, nor is it a process, (we do grow 'in grace'), but salvation is a free gift, which we accept when we hear the good news and believe it and place our trust in what Christ did, accepting, trusting, 'believing on' Jesus, that his death paid for ALL our sins and we were given HIS righteousness as ours is 'filthy rags'. Being a free gift we accept, we accept it on a 'certain' day, as in Acts, where it would say 'and 3,000 souls were added to the church that day. AND, when we accept the free gift on that day, that moment, many things happen to us, one of which is that we are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, or the church. We are saved by grace through faith, works to follow as evidence. Baptism merely a symbolic, public declaration of our faith in Christ, for it is the blood of Christ that washes away our sins, not water. I know folks can use scripture to argue that, and I have scripture of my own, and I don't want to argue it on this thread. I just want to say, I believe no matter what 'church' you are in, even if you are in one that is way out there or way different than straight Bible-believing churches, even if it is clouded in sacraments, rituals, wrong doctrine, legalism, liberalism, or any other thing out of balance, and I am talking ANY church, ANY denomination, all churches have some errors somewhere, for we are only human. I say, that no matter what, IF you trust alone, in Christ alone, that when its all said and done, you just tell Jesus, 'I believe!' , 'I trust you, what you did, that it is sufficient', and just put your complete trust in Jesus and His death and ressurection, if you can at least do that, I would say that you are saved. As far as the 'right' Jesus delemna, I can only say, pray and seek the truth with all your heart, and the Holy Spirit, and much study will reveal this to you. Use the Bible as your MAIN AUTHORITY, if you have other books or scriptures or prophecies or writings, etc. that your group or denomination holds as high as the Bible, for a while, study the Bible and let IT be the plumbline, the cornerstone by which you measure any other doctrine. For there are some doctrines which at first may seem backed by the Bible, but upon further investigation are not, yet a teacher may say their books were written later and supercede the Bible, and I would ask that one go back to the Bible, then compare the doctrines. The prophets, Jesus, Paul and the Apostles brought God's Word to us, God's gospel. Measure your beliefs by that standard and if they deviate from that, then I would question it and renounce it. That's my answer for now.

Have a Wonderful Easter!

Mike

Mike,

Just one question for you. Do you believe that, as a Christian, you have any responsibility whatsoever to try to live your life in accordance with your Savior's teachings? I'm anticipating that you will say that our good works naturally follow our converstion. To a certain extent, I agree. But Satan doesn't stop tempting us once we make a commitment to Jesus Christ. I would hope you would concede that point. Do you really believe that just telling Jesus that you believe and that you trust Him is suffient if you don't make any effort whatsoever to show Him that you mean what you say?

Squirt

 

[joeboonda]

Mike,

Just one question for you. Do you believe that, as a Christian, you have any responsibility whatsoever to try to live your life in accordance with your Savior's teachings? I'm anticipating that you will say that our good works naturally follow our converstion. To a certain extent, I agree. But Satan doesn't stop tempting us once we make a commitment to Jesus Christ. I would hope you would concede that point. Do you really believe that just telling Jesus that you believe and that you trust Him is suffient if you don't make any effort whatsoever to show Him that you mean what you say?

Squirt

Yes, I believe as a Christian we have even MORE responsibility to live our lives in accordance with our Saviour's teachings as we have been bought with a price and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I would not say our good works would naturaly follow our conversion, we still have our old nature and fleshly body to deal with until we receive our new incorruptible bodies. I would say that salvation is free, we accept the gift, and as it is not a reward for good doing, but a gift we accept, it is a done deal. Christ having paid the price with His blood and having imputed His righteousness unto us freely when we first believed on Him. So, as far as producing works, one would think that out of a great depth of gratitude for His overwhelming love and forgiveness, one would want to grow in grace. How we grow is to "desire the sincere milk of the Word that ye may grow thereby." And by praying, fellowshipping with other believers, and striving to become more like Jesus, and by witnessing, and fighting the temptations of sin in our lives. Many, or all at different times, of Christians do not grow as they should because they do not read their Bible, pray, fellowship, etc. and also because I think they do not realize that sin just leads to more misery, whereas living as right as we can leads to abundance of life and reward in Heaven. Many forget about the part to seek your treasure in Heaven, and the crowns and precious stones, silver and gold mentioned as reward to those who are obedient. (I don't speak of literal gold, but it is at least symbolic of a type of reward Jesus said He is coming with). I also believe Christians, because of the Holy Spirit indwelling us, are perhaps much more convicted when we do sin, although we can push him into a corner and become hardened to some sins and not even call them sins. But, if we honestly are grateful for our salvation, and we do what we are taught to help us grow, we will grow and produce good works because we have been saved, not to get or stay saved. On the last question, I don't think telling PEOPLE you believe in Jesus, does anything. We cry out to God to save us realizing He is so Holy, way beyond anything we could ever hope to be, that we are sinners, our righteousness is as filthy rags, that there is nothing we can do to save or help save ourselves, and we cry out to God to have mercy on us, and we tell HIM we trust only in the blood of Jesus to pay for our sins, and in HIS righteousness freely imputed unto us, and none of our own, to save us. When we cry out to Him, He saves us. The Bible says these things were written that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life. Jesus said If you believe, you HAVE eternal life, AND SHALL NOT COME into condemnation, but ARE passed from death to life. That is my belief pretty much.

Mike

 

[Squirt]

Mike, thank you. I appreciate your answer.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Just one question for you. Do you believe that, as a Christian, you have any responsibility whatsoever to try to live your life in accordance with your Savior's teachings?

I'm not Mike, and I don't play a Mike on TV, BUT...

It's the nature of the disciple to imitate the teacher.

Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' NIV

You produce fruit based on what you are.

Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. NIV

 

[joeboonda]

Your welcome, Squirt. Netdoc, what you say is true, we are to grow in grace, and try not to sin, but we must be careful to avoid the 'ministry of condemnation', as we have now the ministry of reconciliation. (I am not saying you are, your answer was fine)

5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(King James Bible, 2 Corinthians)

I am not saying just go do your own thing, but simply want to encourage people who have accepted Christ that they HAVE been reconciled to God, and we have entered into a kind of rest, from works, as far as trying to 'earn' salvation, but we now work and practice righteousness because we have been reconciled. I just wanted to send out that message of assurance to believers who may doubt their salvation, even though we are still 'being made holy', are still prone to fall into sin, we have been reconciled by Christ, to whom be all the glory and praise.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I agree Joe,

but too often people see Christianity as "Fire Insurance", rather than a life changing relationship. John the Bapatist spoke to this very phenomenon:

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. NIV

Fortunately, we have the POWER of the blood to do God's will: Love God, and love Everyone Else.

 

[Scott1]

So some person living in 4th Century Mongolia has been given all the opportunity he needs to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and accept it?

Nope, but some person who lived in 4th century Mongolia or whatever time and place has been given all the opportunity he/she needs to know God.

The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (Vatican Council I, can. 2 § 1: DS 3026)

When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

"The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for."(GS 19)

"Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths." (GS 16)

GS = Vatican Council II, Gadium et Spes (Faith and Hope)

Hope that helps,
Scott

 

[joeboonda]

I agree, Netdoc, (also with Victor's post above about man having a conscience and the creation), many Christians, ourselves included at times, miss out on great blessings, and producing fruit because we get lazy or complacent, and will miss out on much reward in Heaven, too, even though our salvation has been secured.

 

[Adstar]

I would hope you would concede that point. Do you really believe that just telling Jesus that you believe and that you trust Him is suffient if you don't make any effort whatsoever to show Him that you mean what you say?

Who is one proving their thoughts to?

To God?

Do you believe that God knows all our thoughts?

If you do believe that God knows all our thoughts then it is pointless trying to prove our thoughts to Him. He already knows them.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Squirt]

Who is one proving their thoughts to?

Well, first off, that strikes me as an odd question. If I claim to believe in Jesus Christ and then make no effort to keep His commandments, my actions are a poor reflection on Him. On the other hand, if I am a good example of what a Christian is, others may be drawn to Him.

To God?

Do you believe that God knows all our thoughts? If you do believe that God knows all our thoughts then it is pointless trying to prove our thoughts to Him. He already knows them.

Of course God knows our thoughts, and I don't think it's a matter of proving anything to Him. I believe that it's a matter of putting our money where our mouth is. In John 14:15 and21, we read, "If ye love me, keep my commandments.... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." It's one thing to say we have faith in Him, but quite another to be faithful to Him. Our good works are a minifestation of our faith and are the way we show Him and our fellow men that we are sincere in our commitment.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/quote]

 

[Adstar]

Well, first off, that strikes me as an odd question. If I claim to believe in Jesus Christ and then make no effort to keep His commandments, my actions are a poor reflection on Him. On the other hand, if I am a good example of what a Christian is, others may be drawn to Him.

People are drawn to Jesus because of the message of Jesus not because Christians live up to the message of Jesus. Christians often fail to live up to the message of Jesus if people are relying on us to be Jesus to them then their faith will crumble. I am glad i base my faith on Jesus and not on any other person i have contact with.

And what do you mean "a poor refection upon Him" ? Do you really think Jesus should be judged by the ability of His followers to be perfect Christians? The Word Of God stands on it's own irrespective of how successful or otherwise we are at conforming to that message.

Of course God knows our thoughts, and I don't think it's a matter of proving anything to Him. I believe that it's a matter of putting our money where our mouth is. In John 14:15 and21, we read, "If ye love me, keep my commandments.... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." It's one thing to say we have faith in Him, but quite another to be faithful to Him. Our good works are a manifestation of our faith and are the way we show Him and our fellow men that we are sincere in our commitment.

A manifestation to Him, A product of being saved, not a pre-requisite for being saved.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Squirt]

People are drawn to Jesus because of the message of Jesus not because Christians live up to the message of Jesus. Christians often fail to live up to the message of Jesus if people are relying on us to be Jesus to them then their faith will crumble. I am glad i base my faith on Jesus and not on any other person i have contact with.

Well, I base my faith on Jesus, too, so you can cut the self-righteous attitude. I agree that people are drawn to Jesus because of His message, but ask the non-Christians on this forum what it is they have against Christianity and it is almost NEVER the message He brought; it's the attitude of so-called Christians. We can turn people off to such an extent that they aren't even interested in listening to the message. That's what we need to avoid doing.

And what do you mean "a poor refection upon Him" ? Do you really think Jesus should be judged by the ability of His followers to be perfect Christians? The Word Of God stands on it's own irrespective of how successful or otherwise we are at conforming to that message.

No, I don't think He should be judged on that, but as I already explained, it is good Christians who are able to be successful in sharing His gospel, not the hypocrites.

A manifestation to Him, A product of being saved, not a pre-requisite for being saved.

I never implied that we are saved by our works, but just look around you and tell me how many people who call themselves Christians behave in such a way that Jesus would even recognize them as His.

Anyway, we're going off topic and since this is my thread , I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen. So, in your opinion, will my belief in the necessity of faith plus works keep me out of Heaven?

 

[Adstar]

People are drawn to Jesus because of the message of Jesus not because Christians live up to the message of Jesus. Christians often fail to live up to the message of Jesus if people are relying on us to be Jesus to them then their faith will crumble. I am glad i base my faith on Jesus and not on any other person i have contact with.

Well, I base my faith on Jesus, too, so you can cut the self-righteous attitude. I agree that people are drawn to Jesus because of His message,

What self righteous attitude??? I have not been self righteous in what i have said. I am offended by that false tag you have placed upon me. Play the ball not the person.

but ask the non-Christians on this forum what it is they have against Christianity and it is almost NEVER the message He brought; it's the attitude of so-called Christians. We can turn people off to such an extent that they aren't even interested in listening to the message. That's what we need to avoid doing.

Then they are making a huge error. One should never ever judge a message by the messenger. People should focus on the message. Is it true? Is it right? Is it good? or is it not?

If a well-spoken and charismatic speaker comes up and says grass is Orange does one believe it? Or when a person of limited IQ and poor speaking comes up and says that grass is green does one discount it as false?

If someone comes along and tells the truth then those who want to hear the truth will hear it irrespective of the social graces of the one who delivers the truth.

And what do you mean "a poor refection upon Him" ? Do you really think Jesus should be judged by the ability of His followers to be perfect Christians? The Word Of God stands on it's own irrespective of how successful or otherwise we are at conforming to that message.

No, I don't think He should be judged on that, but as I already explained, it is good Christians who are able to be successful in sharing His gospel, not the hypocrites.

There are No Good people on earth. Jesus said no man is good only God is Good. All men who hold the faith of the Messiah Jesus are by definition Hypocrites because no one can live up to the perfect way that Jesus gave to men. Therefore if people rely on the supposed "good" Christians then when they eventually discover a fault in the "good" Christian (As they will) then their faith will be undermined because their trust was in a man not in God.

I never implied that we are saved by our works, but just look around you and tell me how many people who call themselves Christians behave in such a way that Jesus would even recognize them as His.

Anyway, we're going off topic and since this is my thread , I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen. So, in your opinion, will my belief in the necessity of faith plus works keep me out of Heaven?

First you say: "I never implied that we are saved by our works"

But in the very nest paragraph you say: "my belief in the necessity of faith plus works"

You say that we are not saved by works but then you clearly state that you believe works are a necessity for salvation?

So what is your position? Are works essential to obtain salvation or not? They either are or they are not essential for us to have salvation?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Evandr2]

Adstar, Spuirt - Your bickering. You both seem to have strong beliefs and that is OK. You both have the right and should respect each others position.

Now, if I may chime in on this subject, I have a question... If we have not anything to do to be worthy of salvation other than simply profess a belief in Jesus than what is the point of this whole earth experience?

It seems to me that if our only eternal purpose was to hang around singing praises to God in ever increasing numbers than God could have just arranged it that way and skipped this whole ordeal. He could have created us all to that purpose and nobody would have had to be cast out or fight the dragon or fail or anything! We could have went straight to our final destination and skipped all the danger and trial.

Ressurrection is free to all people everywhere. That much was accomplished by the resurrection of Christ and will be given to all. The atonement is a different story. Christ provided a way around the demands of justice that a person could accomplish through faith in Christ and repentance. The catch is, we do have to keep his commandments so that His atonment can have effect in our eternal lives. If we are not worthy of that saving atonment then we will not benefit by it. The atonment provides mercy to us by our obedience to Christ in both word and deed for faith without works is dead. If we do not follow the path provided by Christ around the demands of justice than we must answer those demands ourselves. The problem is, a person guilty of sin cannot atone for sin .. even their own.

What most people call faith I call the Linus syndrome. If you are interested I will show you where you can find out what I mean. Its too long to post here.

It is not conceivable that we are not, to some degree, responsible for our own salvation by the demonstration of our ability to overcome trial, resist temptation, and obey the commandments of God. Overcoming trial and resisting temptation .. well .. I don't know what you call it, but I call it work, sometime hard and sometimes easy, but still work.

One more thing, when a person believes in something or someone they act accordingly else their belief is superficial and without substance. What kind of person believes that a path is dangerous and then fails to demonstrate that belief by not going down that path? If you believe in Christ you will do what he asks. Deciding for yourselves what you will and will not do and then expecting it to be sufficient because The Lord is such a good person is not wise because He is also a just person and mercy cannot rob justice.

Vandr

 

[nutshell]

Squirt:

You could get all the points of doctrine correct, but I suspect there is at least one poster on the RF (wink-wink) who's permission you'll need to get into Heaven.
haha

 

[Squirt]

What self righteous attitude??? I have not been self righteous in what i have said. I am offended by that false tag you have placed upon me.

I apologize if I misinterpreted your remark, ("I am glad i base my faith on Jesus and not on any other person i have contact with.") but quite frankly, it reminded me of Luke 18:11 ("The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.")

Then they are making a huge error. One should never ever judge a message by the messenger. People should focus on the message. Is it true? Is it right? Is it good? or is it not?

Of course it's a huge error. That's beside the point.

If a well-spoken and charismatic speaker comes up and says grass is Orange does one believe it? Or when a person of limited IQ and poor speaking comes up and says that grass is green does one discount it as false?

If someone comes along and tells the truth then those who want to hear the truth will hear it irrespective of the social graces of the one who delivers the truth.

You are either intentionally misinterpreting what I said or else you just don't get it. Either way, I have nothing more to say on the matter. I am simply going to say that I believe Christians have a responsibility to be good examples of what Christ taught, and I believe their actions can have an influence on others. Period. Take that any way you wish.

There are No Good people on earth. Jesus said no man is good only God is Good. All men who hold the faith of the Messiah Jesus are by definition Hypocrites because no one can live up to the perfect way that Jesus gave to men. Therefore if people rely on the supposed "good" Christians then when they eventually discover a fault in the "good" Christian (As they will) then their faith will be undermined because their trust was in a man not in God.

I disagree. I believe that there are good men and women throughout the world. There are just no perfect people, which is why we all are in equal need of a Savior.

First you say: "I never implied that we are saved by our works. But

in the very nest paragraph you say: "my belief in the necessity of faith plus works." You say that we are not saved by works but then you clearly state that you believe works are a necessity for salvation. So what is your position? Are works essential to obtain salvation or not? They either are or they are not essential for us to have salvation?

We could do good works every day of our lives and they wouldn't save us. That is what I mean when I say that we are not saved by our works. All of us have sinned, and God will not allow anyone who is unworthy (i.e. sinful in any way) to enter into His presence. There is nothing any of us could possibly do to make ourselves perfect and therefore good enough to save ourselves. On the other hand, Jesus clearly stated on a number of occasions, that we are to be obedient to His commandments. Furthermore, He stated that His grace is offered only to those who do more than offer lip service to Him. Among His statements to this effect are the following:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And the Apostles He personally ordained to lead His Church said much the same thing:

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That is my position. We are saved by our faith in Christ. But it must be a living faith, not a dead faith.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

i just glanced though some of the last part but the works that where mentioned is based in the law of the harvest... "If ye sow, so shall ye reap" the law of the harvest is based off of work, if you work hard to get a crop of corn you will get a crop of corn, if you place this is the law... "if ye sow corn, so shall ye reap corn" but if you take it to the next step say good, "if ye sow good, so shall ye reap good" everything worth doing is hard work, following the savor and doing good is harder then doing evil or the things of man.

anything that is of good report is long suffering. if ye shall seek the lord do so diligently. these are some of my favorite quotes that depict doing work, but the work that is required for salvation is doing the right thing not labor or success, but doing good unto your fellow man, to some this is the hardest work that we have but to others it is a privilege...

 

[Adstar]

G'Day Squirt

I apologize if I misinterpreted your remark, ("I am glad i base my faith on Jesus and not on any other person i have contact with.") but quite frankly, it reminded me of Luke 18:11 ("The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.")

The pharisee was saying that he was better than other men. I never said that. I was just saying that i was glad that i had a personal relationship with God through Jesus independant of any human heirachy.

Then they are making a huge error. One should never ever judge a message by the messenger. People should focus on the message. Is it true? Is it right? Is it good? or is it not?
Of course it's a huge error. That's beside the point.

That is a very important point, I have sen it time and time again. people fall away from truth because corruption has been exposed in a preacher or religious figure they place on a pedistool. My point was to excourage people to trust in God alone.

You are either intentionally misinterpreting what I said or else you just don't get it. Either way, I have nothing more to say on the matter. I am simply going to say that I believe Christians have a responsibility to be good examples of what Christ taught, and I believe their actions can have an influence on others. Period. Take that any way you wish.

Yes loving others is good having compassion is good being gentle is good. I am not trying to argue against love. I am trying to give people understanding that they can have an independent and direct relationship with God. A God who does not preach false doctrines. A God that does not lead them into a pit. In the end it is only God we should trust and respect. Because many false prophets have gone out into the world who preach another jesus.

There are No Good people on earth. Jesus said no man is good only God is Good. All men who hold the faith of the Messiah Jesus are by definition Hypocrites because no one can live up to the perfect way that Jesus gave to men. Therefore if people rely on the supposed "good" Christians then when they eventually discover a fault in the "good" Christian (As they will) then their faith will be undermined because their trust was in a man not in God.

I disagree. I believe that there are good men and women throughout the world. There are just no perfect people, which is why we all are in equal need of a Savior.

You thought i was like the Pharisee in the temple. Can you not see by declaring that some people are better (good) that you are agreeing with the Pharisee that some men are superior to others? Jesus made it clear that no man is good when a man called Him a good teacher:

Matthew 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

( Of cource Jesus was Good, But Jesus knew that the man who called Him "Good teacher" did not know He was the Messiah, but saw Jesus as being a man like himself.)

We could do good works every day of our lives and they wouldn't save us. That is what I mean when I say that we are not saved by our works. All of us have sinned, and God will not allow anyone who is unworthy (i.e. sinful in any way) to enter into His presence. There is nothing any of us could possibly do to make ourselves perfect and therefore good enough to save ourselves. On the other hand, Jesus clearly stated on a number of occasions, that we are to be obedient to His commandments. Furthermore, He stated that His grace is offered only to those who do more than offer lip service to Him. Among His statements to this effect are the following:

Yes those who Love the lord Love His commandments. To love God and to love others. But does one do good for others because its a thing they must do, out of obedience to Jesus? How can one have genuine concern and love for others if it is done in the spirit of grudging obedience or to Justify ones salvation?

One who has the Holy Spirit Wants to help others, they are filled with joy when they help others not out of wanting to please God but because they genuinely love others. One who has the Holy Spirit gives the Word of God with the genuine hope of being used to save the one they are witnessing to. They do not do it because its an obligation that they must do to Justify their salvation. The right spirit is not about having to do this or having to do that, Its about wanting to do this and wanting to do that. The right spirit is an indication of the Holy Spirit. the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. No one can force themselves to have these feelings, The Holy Spirit provokes these within those who have the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Yes Jesus will reward those who have done Good works. But the rewards are bejond salvation. salvation is gained though faith not works.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And the Apostles He personally ordained to lead His Church said much the same thing:

Yes amen

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And what is the Law of Jesus?

1 John 3
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Pretty simple isn't it

2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Yes we love the truth and resist evil.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Amen

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Those who have true faith will do good works

That is my position. We are saved by our faith in Christ. But it must be a living faith, not a dead faith.

And it is to those who love the Lord.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days