Christians: please help me out with this

[Bob Dixon]

I understand what you're saying. I truly do enjoy these conversations and I hope you don't think I'm being malicious. But Christ was a teacher right? he came to PREPARE us and teach us how to enter the kingdom of heaven. Regardless who's benefits we are to take what Christ taught us, and apply it to our daily lives, in order to be rewarded with Heaven. No matter how you cut that, it's testing us to see if we are worthy of gods paradise. And "heaven" and "Hell" are just words used to describe reward/punishment. By hanging out, I meant not by use of faith. I meant god shows up at my house with cheese dip and turns my kool-aid into bud light.

Yes, Christ was a teacher.
But Christ was about teaching, not about preparation. And the "Kingdom of Heaven" is not some far-off thing, but rather it is here and now among us. Jesus said this directly. "Reward" and "punishment"... these are human things.

And God drinks way better beer than Bud Light. He's not a peasant.

 

[Sleeppy]

It's not a test. It's a learning experience.

 

[DandyAndy]

I understand what you're saying. I truly do enjoy these conversations and I hope you don't think I'm being malicious. But Christ was a teacher right? he came to PREPARE us and teach us how to enter the kingdom of heaven. Regardless who's benefits we are to take what Christ taught us, and apply it to our daily lives, in order to be rewarded with Heaven. No matter how you cut that, it's testing us to see if we are worthy of gods paradise. And "heaven" and "Hell" are just words used to describe reward/punishment. By hanging out, I meant not by use of faith. I meant god shows up at my house with cheese dip and turns my kool-aid into bud light.

This is your problem. No one can be worthy. That was the whole purpose of Christ. If an individual could somehow become worthy of heaven (meaning they were righteous and perfect) in this life, there would be no need for a Law to show that no man is righteous or perfect and there would have been no need for Christ to die as a sacrifice.

No one is worthy of the pardon of sin or of heaven. But the pardon of sin and heaven is available to everyone if you accept it. So I guess the only thing resembling a 'test' would be if you accept Christ or not. But this is like saying that whether or not you accept your birthday presents is a test.

The sacrifice has been made on your behalf, GOD did all the work - all you have to do is accept it. All we can do is accept it with thanksgiving and praise because we cannot earn it or buy it or deserve it. That's the beauty of mercy - it's a free gift.

Until you realize that I'm afraid you are asking what 2+2 is and expecting the answer to be Paris.

 

[sunshineydays]

I am new here on have read all these posts. I like everyones candor, and respect all.
I personally think that God does know all, yet God through his Son has given all his son to either believe in or not. Study what His Son has done, see the love provided through his Son, that has been extended to all. All I see is we are left with a choice either we believe or we do not. We have been given this free choice, so one could change their mind from unbelief to belief. God has not forseen this even though God could. But if God did do this then that would take away our free choice.
If God ever took away our free choice, then God could not claim to love everyone the same.
This life here is not a test to me, it is a choice, the only thing Christ never died for was and is unbelief. The verse is in John, Yet I recommend you read the whole book in context, be careful of verse picking and leaving out the context of the chapter, and ask the Holy Spirit for the meaning, and it will be revealed to anyone that is seeking life after physical death, forever and ever.
Hope this helps anyone here, as well as I know you all here will help me in my growth of understanding, the unfathomable love of Christ, his finished work and to me most importantly, the ressurection, then the ascenscion in front of the disciples.
Wow what a glorious day, wish I saw with my own eyes, physically.
sunshiney

 

[Thief]

So...
Our linear existence keeps us from going back and correcting errors.
It also prevents going forward to view pending problems.
And God knows no time barrier.

The last line is the actual problem.
Remove it.

God is following right along...watching.
Your performance can...and will be...evaluated.

It's not a test.

This life forms unique spirit...yours...mine....
This life cannot do anything else.
We are here to learn all that we can....then back to God we go.

If you do well...fine....
If not....why put up with your failed spirit?

You have been assembled.
You can be taken apart.

 

[Chadley]

What if God didn't know everything, would a Christian life then be considered a test?

Yes, as a matter of fact, the way Christians believe only makes sense if god isn't all knowing. If god didn't know your next move, then our time on this earth would truly be a test. Because it would be necessary for our god to put us on this earth with so much temptation. He would want to see who among his children can rise above adversity and the temptation to believe beyond what they see and love and have faith in his word. But Christians think that's the way it is anyway. But If god knows every move you will make, the time on this earth makes no sense. God could just not create the people who will go to Heaven and only create the people who will love him. There would be no point to create people who God knows will just go to hell.

 

[Chadley]

Destined for heaven, what about destined for earth?
Everyone who lived after Adam, between Genesis and Malachi, and died before Jesus died did not go to heaven. [John 3v13; Acts 2v34; Matt 11v11]
They will have an earthly resurrection during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. -Hebrews 11 vs13,39

Angels and humans are all created as: free moral agents.

We are given the gift of free will so we are Not programmed robots.

God, by giving us that free-will gift, is choosing not to interfere,
or choosing not to know how we will use our God-given gift.

There would be No reason for us to be able to choose if we could not choose.
Rather, we are told of tragic consequences of choosing disobedience.

-Deut. 30v19;32v5; 28v45; James 1 vs13-15

Its not a debate about free will. But since you bring it up, according to Christians belief that god knows everything, we only have the illusion of free will. See, whether or not god chose our individual endings, or "makes" us do things. God still does know what happens in the end and everything you do during your life. God knows exactly how and when you will die, and you cannot stray from that. That's not to say god "made" you die that way, it's just how you did, and God knew it always. So you can make your own choices in life, and god will never interfere, but in the end you will have done everything God knew you would do, and die in the exact way god knew you would. Therefor it feels like free will, but since the creator knows your end, you have a predetermined fate that you can never change.

 

[Thief]

Its not a debate about free will. But since you bring it up, according to Christians belief that god knows everything, we only have the illusion of free will. See, whether or not god chose our individual endings, or "makes" us do things. God still does know what happens in the end and everything you do during your life. God knows exactly how and when you will die, and you cannot stray from that. That's not to say god "made" you die that way, it's just how you did, and God knew it always. So you can make your own choices in life, and god will never interfere, but in the end you will have done everything God knew you would do, and die in the exact way god knew you would. Therefor it feels like free will, but since the creator knows your end, you have a predetermined fate that you can never change.

'Predetermined'....indicates willfulness applied.....by Him.

This viewpoint negates our freewill...yes.
But it also negates the construction of a device to form unique spirits.... Man.

Not much point in having all of this 'drama' if the end of the story....
your story...is already fixed.

 

[james2ko]

Yes, as a matter of fact, the way Christians believe only makes sense if god isn't all knowing. If god didn't know your next move, then our time on this earth would truly be a test. Because it would be necessary for our god to put us on this earth with so much temptation. He would want to see who among his children can rise above adversity and the temptation to believe beyond what they see and love and have faith in his word. But If god knows every move you will make, the time on this earth makes no sense. God could just not create the people who will go to Heaven and only create the people who will love him. There would be no point to create people who God knows will just go to hell.

According to scripture, God does not necessarily know every choice we are going to make, in every circumstance.

But Christians think that's the way it is anyway.

Not all Christians.

 

[Mister Emu]

There isn't a decision you could ever make that god didn't know you were going to make. God knew before it ever created you, whether or not you were destined for heaven. So my question is, How is life a test?

In my opinion God's omniscience is facilitated by His omnipresence... that is, God knows all of the choices you will make because God is present in the times in which you make those choices.

 

[Chadley]

According to scripture, God does not necessarily know every choice we are going to make, in every circumstance.



Not all Christians.

If that is true I Truly am sorry because I am wrong. Could you please give the book and numbers I can find this scripture? I just always thought that If a person believes that god doesn't know everything, that questions his divinity. But These are some scriptures I found. If what you said about god not knowing everything is actually in scripture, it's black and white proof of biblical contradiction.

1 John 3:19-20

By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Isaiah 46:9

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.

 

[Thief]

If that is true I Truly am sorry because I am wrong. Could you please give the book and numbers I can find this scripture? I just always thought that If a person believes that god doesn't know everything, that questions his divinity. But These are some scriptures I found.

1 John 3:19-20

By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Isaiah 46:9

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.

The ability to predict...is not the same as 'fixing' the future.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Its not a debate about free will. But since you bring it up, according to Christians belief that god knows everything, we only have the illusion of free will. See, whether or not god chose our individual endings, or "makes" us do things. God still does know what happens in the end and everything you do during your life. God knows exactly how and when you will die, and you cannot stray from that. That's not to say god "made" you die that way, it's just how you did, and God knew it always. So you can make your own choices in life, and god will never interfere, but in the end you will have done everything God knew you would do, and die in the exact way god knew you would. Therefor it feels like free will, but since the creator knows your end, you have a predetermined fate that you can never change.

Illusion of free will would be deceit. Deceit would be a lie. God can not lie.
[Titus 1v2]

'How and when you will die' is out of harmony with Scripture.
King Solomon, known for having God-given wisdom, wrote:
Ecc [7v17].... why die before your time?

Do you drive through stop signs and red lights ?
If not, then you do not trust God has a set time for you to die.

Didn't Jesus teach just wrong place wrong time at Luke [13vs4,5] ?

If God knows exactly, why does Ecc [9v11] mentions that time and chance or unforeseen occurrences befall all of us? [wrong place wrong time]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What if God didn't know everything, would a Christian life then be considered a test?

What about the life of Job?
Although a non-Christian Job proved Satan a liar.

What about Abraham being tested [Heb 11v17]
Although a non-Christian Abraham was still a worshiper of God.

Jesus, on the other hand, was tested but without a sinful nature. -Heb. 4v15

Christian James [1v3] wrote about the tested quality of one's faith.

Christian Peter [1Pt1v7] mentions the testing of one's faith is precious.......

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If that is true I Truly am sorry because I am wrong. Could you please give the book and numbers I can find this scripture? I just always thought that If a person believes that god doesn't know everything, that questions his divinity. But These are some scriptures I found. If what you said about god not knowing everything is actually in scripture, it's black and white proof of biblical contradiction.
1 John 3:19-20
By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.

And Revelation is a 'declaring' of the end from the Genesis beginning.
From Genesis [3v15] the first prophecy regarding Jesus as messianic 'seed'
to Revelation where Jesus fulfills that first prophecy.
Since those receiving salvation is an unknown number [Rev 7vs9,14; 20v8]
Unknown as the 'sands of the sea' because sand can not be counted.
If all is known, then there could only be a set or fixed number.

1st John [3vs19,20] - God knows everything: 'that we need'.
-Luke 12v20; Mt. 6v33.
Hebrews [4v13] everything is naked and open in God's sight.
That does not mean he knows our choices, but our choices are exposed.

What would be the point of Jesus judging if judgment was already past tense?
-Isaiah 11v3

 

[james2ko]

If that is true I Truly am sorry because I am wrong. Could you please give the book and numbers I can find this scripture?

1. For example, when God gave Abraham the supreme test of sacrificing his son Isaac, He did not know until that moment whether Abraham would choose to obey. Upon perceiving his choice, He told Abraham: "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me" (Genesis 22:12). This was one of the most crucial points in the history of faith and in the plan of God! It was a challenge so intense, and involving such faith, that God did not know the choice Abraham would make.

I just always thought that If a person believes that god doesn't know everything, that questions his divinity.

2. Unless you know someone else that can create humans from dirt; raise them from the dead; know how many hairs we have on our head (Mat 10:30); knows the name of 300 sextillion (that's 300 followed by 21 zeros) stars (Psa 147:4) , I don't see how not knowing someone's choice, under extreme circumstances, will undermine His divinity.

But These are some scriptures I found. If what you said about god not knowing everything is actually in scripture, it's black and white proof of biblical contradiction. 1 John 3:19-20 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

3. Not really. The context of verse 20 is found in verse 18: 1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth." God has knowledge of all truth and all of our deeds, after we perform them. Although, this does not exclude Him from knowing us so well that, under normal circumstances, He may predict our next move. Similar to a parent knowing their child well enough to predict their next action or behavior.

Isaiah 46:9I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done.

4. God has a plan for mankind. He knows how it started and knows how it will end. For the most part, He allows us to exercise our free will, but will and has interfered when He feels our actions may derail His plan.

 

[Dubio]

I think it's safe to say that there are billions of people who have lived in the past and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. If Christian Fundamentalism is correct, that means that there are billions of people suffering in h#@% right now. I think it's also safe to say, if Christian Fundamentalism is correct, that within the next 100 years, a couple of billion more people will go to h#@%. Under these circumstances, if God was truly loving and merciful , He should end this world by the time you finish reading this. That would preemptively save the suffering of billions of people who will end up in h@#% in the future.

 

[waterbear]

The existence of the Christian god says life is a test. At the root of it all it's a reward and punishment system. If you follow the word of god you get heaven. If you don't you get hell. I'm trying to understand why Christians ignore the fact that if god knew what would happen to earth before he made it, there was no point in it at all. look at it this way, I'm an atheist, so If I were to die as I'm typing this, I would go straight to hell. God already knew that. He knew it before the earth was made. So God made me, knowing that I would not love him, never change my path, and go to hell. according to God I never had a choice. That was always what was going to happen. It has to be the same for everyone else. All Christians agree god is all knowing, but they seem to forget what that type of power entails. Its a paradox. There cannot be a test if the person giving the test knew all along who would pass and who would fail.

There's two explanations that are actually rational as opposed to blind faith belief to please a God who "loves us" yet will horribly punish with unending torture those who disobey the various Rules inspired by this supposedly loving God for warning the living about two possible states of being after death:

One is to direct the wise to look for the source of this idea of Hell as part of seeking truth which Jesus tells us Christians to do. Those who are Faithful to truth seeking will eventually discover the roots of the idea of Hell and by doing so will overcome this rather primitive method of social and individual behavioral coercion that is so easily turned into weapons to hurt people by terrorizing them. Are we afraid of the dark? The ancients were almost as afraid as primitive peoples. Saw boogie men set loose in the dark and eventually the Dark Side of the sun's appearance of orbiting the earth to the ancients became a symbol of all the fears of humanity. Set as Satan was set loose in the Dark to destroy the Sun as supreme symbol of the ancient's most Advanced or Super Man become one with God. Osiris, the Egyptian Sun-God-Man, once walked the earth for ancient Egyptians and Christ walked it for Christians. These Sun God-Men bring LIght to destroy the Dark and death is the ultimate Darkness. The sun's resurrection every day and every year at the birthday of these Sun God's, Dec. 25th, three days after the Winter Solstice, and representing the resurrection of the sun from Darkness of winter. So in the Egyptian mythology of the soul there is a choice to be made at death whether or not that soul is worthy of life in the Light or life in the Darkness of hell. The Egyptian hell with its lake of fire is the actual model for the Christian hell. As is the idea of the judgment of souls.

Two is a brand-new yet very ancient concept brought to maturity in our times: The idea that Creation began as the Thought, then Word of God. You see, there is now a new logic for believing humanity will eventually evolve into God itself. This will happen when humanity (in whatever form in our far future) has gained the power to turn thought into matter and manipulate time and space. Don't think it won't happen. Just look at the absolutely astounding progression we've shown in just 200 years in technological advancement going from horse and buggies to space ships and walking on the moon as well as going from wood fires for heat and power to duplicating the power of the sun on earth. When we can turn thought into matter we will have achieved the power of God and this is our inevitable destination requiring "testing" of our ability to advance towards this God-like goal. For example, unless we learn how to destroy larger incoming asteroids and comets our species is at high risk of world destruction. There's always tons of planetary debris flying around orbiting planets and their moons and this must always be a test for advanced life to overcome in our universe. You won't find this idea in standard Christian theology but it's actually there, buried away to be discovered in our times within the Son of Man tradition constantly reminded Christians by Jesus who used this title throughout his teachings.

"Son of Man" stands for Humanity, but Humanity all the way through time and space--from Big Bang Beginning to Black Hole annihilation. Perhaps the ancient religious warnings of Hell are there because we can determine where our souls wind up after physical death by our thoughts in our present life. This might explain the cultural differences in the afterlife heavens found in near-death-experiences. If you don't believe in an afterlife maybe you don't have one. Or if you believe in hell and broke the Rules you end up there. And if you are Good you go to the Good Place where the Light is. Can we discount this knowing n.d.e.s are universally experienced? Thus, Judgment is necessary to determine who goes across the Darkness to get to the Other Side and into everlasting Life. The ancient Egyptians believed those who did bad in their lives were condemned to come back as pigs which was picked up in Judaism's prohibition against eating pigs. Some things to think about..

 

[idea]

God knows everything. It created everything. It knows no time since it always was and always will be. There isn't a decision you could ever make that god didn't know you were going to make. God knew before it ever created you, whether or not you were destined for heaven. So my question is, How is life a test?

The word create is better translated "transform, organize, mold, refine" - so I believe that God is cleaning up a mess that He did not make - He is giving us the chance to be transformed into a new creature if we choose to follow Him and accept the atonement.

Yes, He knows everything, knows how it will all turn out - we are the ones who have an incomplete knowledge, the test is for us, not for God. Why go through with it if the outcome is already known? Why test us to see who we are if He already knows who we are? - Justice. It is not just to label someone for something they have never done.

we proving to ourselves who we are through our actions. God already knows - we're the ones learning who we are.

 

[Chadley]

The ability to predict...is not the same as 'fixing' the future.

What do you mean?