Christians: What in this Book do you Disagree With?

[DeepShadow]

If you choose to serve the law, you are not accepting Christ.

Sticking to the topic, can you show us in this book where it says we are to serve the law?

 

[tomspug]

ESV Bible Online: Passage: Romans 2

This is a good link. It's basically just a scripture reading but it puts titles on certain portions to make it easier to understand. If you don't like the translation, you can just read along with your own Bible.

A couple of key points:

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Paul is explaining that those who have heard the law will be judged by the law's standards. In this chapter, he is speaking directly to the Jews (who have the law), but it is also applicable to us since we keep the same commandments. In this way, the law is like a curse that judges us. Like the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, it is knowledge that pushes us to a higher standard. Whereas, the penalty of knowledge of good and evil is death, the penalty of knowledge of the law is judgment.

21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

This was also written for the Jews but it still applicable to anyone that teaches God's law to others. Was Paul making a judgment here? No, he was recognizing hypocrisy, because everyone is sinful and has broken the law. Even though the Jews KNEW the law, that didn't make them better than anyone else. In fact, it only made them more judged than before.

I love this quote:

9 What then? Are we Jews [1] any better off? [2] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

So, to answer your question, Deep Shadow, we are instructed to serve the law, obviously, because the law itself is an instruction, like the Ten Commandments. What matters is whether or not we KNOW the law. For every law we are aware of, we are bound by it to follow it, else we incur God's judgment.

Unfortunately, Paul follows this point up by saying that no one CAN follow the law without judgment, which is why he goes on in later chapters to discuss that exact dilemma.

For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

So, Christ's resurrection threw out the penalty of judgment that we all deserve, being judged himself for us. By accepting this, we no longer boast in the old law, but the new law, which is a law of faith, not works. This new law does not reject the old one, as Paul goes on to explain.

He gives the example of Abraham, who did not have the law. He was justified by faith.

22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, [3] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

 

[tomspug]

I don't disagree with a thing you've said here, Tom.

Excellent!

 

[TrueBlue2]

Here it is, the basic manual that we teach lessons from every Sunday. It's not doctrine per se, but it contains doctrine...

I guess I just don't see the wisdom in throwing this out there...

 

[DeepShadow]

I guess I just don't see the wisdom in throwing this out there...

I understand your feelings, but after much thought I find this to be far better than the trash that people normally post here off the net.

 

[DeepShadow]

ESV Bible Online: Passage: Romans 2

This is a good link. It's basically just a scripture reading but it puts titles on certain portions to make it easier to understand. If you don't like the translation, you can just read along with your own Bible.

A couple of key points:
Paul is explaining that those who have heard the law will be judged by the law's standards. In this chapter, he is speaking directly to the Jews (who have the law), but it is also applicable to us since we keep the same commandments. In this way, the law is like a curse that judges us. Like the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, it is knowledge that pushes us to a higher standard. Whereas, the penalty of knowledge of good and evil is death, the penalty of knowledge of the law is judgment.
This was also written for the Jews but it still applicable to anyone that teaches God's law to others. Was Paul making a judgment here? No, he was recognizing hypocrisy, because everyone is sinful and has broken the law. Even though the Jews KNEW the law, that didn't make them better than anyone else. In fact, it only made them more judged than before.

I love this quote:


So, to answer your question, Deep Shadow, we are instructed to serve the law, obviously, because the law itself is an instruction, like the Ten Commandments. What matters is whether or not we KNOW the law. For every law we are aware of, we are bound by it to follow it, else we incur God's judgment.

Unfortunately, Paul follows this point up by saying that no one CAN follow the law without judgment, which is why he goes on in later chapters to discuss that exact dilemma.

So, Christ's resurrection threw out the penalty of judgment that we all deserve, being judged himself for us. By accepting this, we no longer boast in the old law, but the new law, which is a law of faith, not works. This new law does not reject the old one, as Paul goes on to explain.

He gives the example of Abraham, who did not have the law. He was justified by faith.

I'm confused...what part of this am disagrees with our teachings?

 

[tomspug]

If you believe that we must not be slaves to the law any longer, then why do you hold to it so desperately? Why do you believe that you will be rewarded in heaven for your deeds when Paul observes so clearly that God has made the world such that "no man may boast before him".

There is only one reward that awaits the faithful in heaven, the only reward worth earning, and that is the approval of God.

If you continue in this false belief in 'progression', you will be effectively chaining yourself to the law. You will believe that your faith justifies you, makes you perfect enough to be able to follow it. But you will be found to have no faith, for like Adam and Satan you believe that you have the ability to WORK to God's level, as if you were ever capable of such a thing.

This is the conclusion I have come to after observing your doctrine, which so closely holds to Christian truth, yet eats itself on its own words. Your doctrine speaks with such joy about faith, yet taints that joy with the promises of man-made dreams and efforts. In the end, when we all die, we will be at the mercy of God, who sees the failure of every man and in him the desire for life though he deserves death.

Some will say, "I deserve death!" and fall on his shoulder. Most will say, "I deserve glory!" in the very face of God Himself, because they are unable to accept that Adam and Eve were wrong. Deep down inside, they want to be God.

 

[nutshell]

If you believe that we must not be slaves to the law any longer, then why do you hold to it so desperately? Why do you believe that you will be rewarded in heaven for your deeds when Paul observes so clearly that God has made the world such that "no man may boast before him".

There is only one reward that awaits the faithful in heaven, the only reward worth earning, and that is the approval of God.

If you continue in this false belief in 'progression', you will be effectively chaining yourself to the law. You will believe that your faith justifies you, makes you perfect enough to be able to follow it. But you will be found to have no faith, for like Adam and Satan you believe that you have the ability to WORK to God's level, as if you were ever capable of such a thing.

This is the conclusion I have come to after observing your doctrine, which so closely holds to Christian truth, yet eats itself on its own words. Your doctrine speaks with such joy about faith, yet taints that joy with the promises of man-made dreams and efforts. In the end, when we all die, we will be at the mercy of God, who sees the failure of every man and in him the desire for life though he deserves death.

Some will say, "I deserve death!" and fall on his shoulder. Most will say, "I deserve glory!" in the very face of God Himself, because they are unable to accept that Adam and Eve were wrong. Deep down inside, they want to be God.

Eternal progression and becoming like God is Biblical (but you and I have gone over that before). AND, the only path to eternal progression is by becoming a true and humble servent giving ALL glory to God and none to one's self.

 

[DeepShadow]

If you believe that we must not be slaves to the law any longer, then why do you hold to it so desperately?

Logical fallacy: When did you stop beating your wife?

Why do you believe that you will be rewarded in heaven for your deeds when Paul observes so clearly that God has made the world such that "no man may boast before him".

I've already explained that we don't believe exaltation is a reward. If you are going to debate our beliefs, you cannot ignore such corrections.

There is only one reward that awaits the faithful in heaven, the only reward worth earning, and that is the approval of God.

And if part of that approval is for Him to--in His beneficence--make us like Him, who are you to stop Him?

Do you believe in the Biblical commandment to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect?

If you continue in this false belief in 'progression', you will be effectively chaining yourself to the law.

Does not follow. We do not chain ourselves to the law. Rather, we do our Father's will because He loved us first.

You will believe that your faith justifies you, makes you perfect enough to be able to follow it. But you will be found to have no faith, for like Adam and Satan you believe that you have the ability to WORK to God's level, as if you were ever capable of such a thing.

Who are you arguing with?! In the book we teach out of, exaltation is called the greatest of all the gifts of God. You cannot earn a gift. You cannot work for it. We do not work for our exaltation.

PLEASE SHOW ME IN THIS BOOK WHERE WE TEACH THAT WE MUST EARN OUR EXALTATION VIA WORK.

This is the conclusion I have come to after observing your doctrine, which so closely holds to Christian truth, yet eats itself on its own words. Your doctrine speaks with such joy about faith, yet taints that joy with the promises of man-made dreams and efforts. In the end, when we all die, we will be at the mercy of God, who sees the failure of every man and in him the desire for life though he deserves death.

Funny how you can't quote passages to this effect, even though this is the second time I've asked. Third time, I'll just report your post as off-topic.

Some will say, "I deserve death!" and fall on his shoulder. Most will say, "I deserve glory!" in the very face of God Himself, because they are unable to accept that Adam and Eve were wrong. Deep down inside, they want to be God.

As best I can tell, you are shadow-boxing with a hybrid of our beliefs and yours. It's like a Roman engineer scoffing at a modern car, because it goes so fast that it would shake itself apart on Roman roads. Likewise, a Roman chariot wouldn't do well in a modern city. They each work in their own setting. You have to stop examining portions of our beliefs in your worldview, and examine them as a whole.

 

[Sola'lor]

It's like a Roman engineer scoffing at a modern car, because it goes so fast that it would shake itself apart on Roman roads.

That's an interesting picture.

 

[DeepShadow]

That's an interesting picture.

Thanks, I think it's kinda funny! I can imagine the engineer's frustration as we explain that in modern times, we have smoother roads...and because the cars move so fast, we have the roads lit by bright lights, etc.

"Oh, so you have to build SPECIAL roads with SPECIAL lights, just to help your car go faster? Why not fix the car so that it will run properly on NORMAL roads?!"

Each person has their own view of what's normal. It bears thinking about.

 

[Sola'lor]

Thanks, I think it's kinda funny! I can imagine the engineer's frustration as we explain that in modern times, we have smoother roads...and because the cars move so fast, we have the roads lit by bright lights, etc.

"Oh, so you have to build SPECIAL roads with SPECIAL lights, just to help your car go faster? Why not fix the car so that it will run properly on NORMAL roads?!"

Each person has their own view of what's normal. It bears thinking about.

Which is why I think it's stupid when people say ancient civilizations were backward and primative.

 

[DeepShadow]

Which is why I think it's stupid when people say ancient civilizations were backward and primative.

:sarcastic

Yeah, next time you hear that, remind the speaker that Thomas Aquinus wrote his entire masterpiece, the Summa Theologica, in his head, using ancient mnemonic techniques. He dictated it with hardly a few notes when it came time to write it. Using the same techniques, Seneca could rattle off two thousand names in order, and Simplicius could recite Virgil...backwards.

I'm currently teaching classes in these techniques, and they make all our day planners and computers look pretty shabby.

 

[tomspug]

I've already explained that we don't believe exaltation is a reward.

Maybe you don't believe that personally, but I think that you are mistaken. The LDS church believes in the doctrine of progression. The length of that progression is determined by works. If that's not a reward system, then explain to me how. This is also the second time I have brought this up.

And interestingly, you have failed to even address my response to your question, which was how the teachings of Paul (which you so willingly accepted) were relevant to the topic. My previous post was written for this purpose, yet you responded to it as if it were merely a personal opinion and not a Biblical interpretation. If you're going to disagree, then please interpret differently instead of making analogies.

I will clarify a second time. You accept Paul's discourse that we may choose to live according to the law as sinners or to the law of salvation. You are right in acknowledging that your idea of progression puts itself under the law of salvation, but it's measure is determined by the law of sinners. Or do you believe that all are saved equally, all are exalted equally? That is my belief. I believe that this is what Paul believes too.

Oh, and disagreement of interpretation is not grounds for being off-topic.

 

[DeepShadow]

Maybe you don't believe that personally, but I think that you are mistaken. The LDS church believes in the doctrine of progression. The length of that progression is determined by works.

No, the length of that progression is determined by how much of the gospel we accept.

If that's not a reward system, then explain to me how. This is also the second time I have brought this up.

Does the above answer your question?

And interestingly, you have failed to even address my response to your question, which was how the teachings of Paul (which you so willingly accepted) were relevant to the topic. My previous post was written for this purpose, yet you responded to it as if it were merely a personal opinion and not a Biblical interpretation. If you're going to disagree, then please interpret differently instead of making analogies.

I don't see what I'm supposed to interpret differently! I've asked you to point out the part where I'm supposed to disagree. Please, let's get to the meat of your problem.

Or do you believe that all are saved equally, all are exalted equally? That is my belief. I believe that this is what Paul believes too.

...if people are exalted, they are exalted equally, yes. Some will not be exalted. Do you believe everyone will be exalted?

Oh, and disagreement of interpretation is not grounds for being off-topic.

The topic is the book we teach out of. Are you sticking to that? Since you are disagreeing with things we don't teach, I don't think you are.

 

[tomspug]

No, the length of that progression is determined by how much of the gospel we accept.

Really? Please elaborate. How much of what gospel?

 

[nutshell]

Christ's gospel.

 

[Sola'lor]

I'm a bit confused by what everyone is talking about but this is what I believe: CHrist will determine who will recieve exaltation. Christ has given us guidelines of what we need to do so he will give us exaltation. So if we want to live with God we need to follow the guidelines Christ has given us. Even if we follow the guidelines, Christ will still decide who can enter God's presence and recieve exaltation.

 

[tomspug]

I'm really confused. Perhaps I just don't understand the idea of progression. Can you explain it to me using actual quotes from the Bible. Why would anyone accept anything LESS than the whole gospel?

Besides I thought acceptance of Christ was (according to LDS) only a means for salvation. And if I'm reading Sola'lor's words right, it DOES sound like Christ decides exultation BASED ON WORKS.

 

[DeepShadow]

Okay, let's go back to an earlier statement, and see if we can't clear this up:

The LDS church believes in the doctrine of progression. The length of that progression is determined by works. If that's not a reward system, then explain to me how.

First: Tomspug, do you consider good health a "reward" for eating well and exercising?