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Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So it was more than two laws? You've mentioned four laws + in just that one post, surely?
This needs looking into. I'm confused.

This was the difference between the old law and the laws that governed those taken into the new covenant.
Jesus was a Jew speaking to those under the law.
Christianity was not a system of written laws but an exercise of our conscience, based on the principles behind the law. The fleshly Jews would be abandoned by God as incorrigible, so a new nation was chosen to replace them. (Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14)

Romans 2:28-29:
"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

Jesus said....“‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

Look closely at what he said. "On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

So, the whole law was based on 'love of God and neighbor'. IOW, you could not break any one of those laws without showing a lack of love for God or your fellow man.


The law was not "destroyed" as Jesus said, but "fulfilled", so that the decrees were now replaced by the exercise of our conscience, no longer bound by a set of written laws. Laws can be obeyed with our mind but the exercise of conscience involves the heart.....which alone can fully appreciate what it means to truly "love" God and neighbor.

Christians now had laws inscribed in their hearts and exercised with their conscience. Under the law, there was no real exercise of conscience because the letter of the law condemned anyone who transgressed it and the penalty was applied without mercy in most cases.

1 Peter 3:16-18:
"Maintain a good conscience, so that in whatever way you are spoken against, those who speak against you may be put to shame because of your good conduct as followers of Christ. 17 For it is better to suffer because you are doing good, if it is God’s will to allow it, than because you are doing evil. 18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."

Can you see what Peter is saying? The price Jesus paid was so great that it covers everyone who exercises faith in it. One righteous man, by his death, covered the sins of many.

The ceremonial laws were pictorial....and the merit of the sacrifices were temporary. They had to be offered weekly for forgiveness of sins, but when Jesus offered his life, "once for all time", then no further sacrifice was necessary. Hence the ceremonial laws were "fulfilled" in Christ.


You tend to make everything so black and white OB.....that is not the way I see things at all. 1+1=2 but there are fractions in between. Jesus broke things down into fractions so that the conscience could break down those actions into a chain of events leading to an outcome. (e.g. Matthew 5:27-28) If one recognizes the first steps towards breaking God's law, then hopefully the conscience would kick in and prevent the steps that lead to serious sin. :shrug:
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
All I know is Paul was a mischief maker and admitted liar who said things about the Law that are easily contradicted by the Torah.

And for the other equally valid reasons I mentioned he was obviously a con man, still conning the people who know no better that he knew Jesus PBUH, when he didn't.

And nobody is on record vouching for his alleged secret revelations either, yet Paul himself insists that two or three witnesses are required to verify such claims, any claim really, quoting the NT and thus indicting himself.

Exegesis is not something that Christians care much about, to them he is in the Bible and it is all the proof they need.

But any competent unbiased exegete or scholar can spot the scam that is the false apostle Paul.
well who saw the face of god but was an angel that rustled with some guy in the old testament with the law and the prophets? Said he also had thorn in his side to say. I wonder if paul was going back on that route or something. Curious I think nothing more.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
well who saw the face of god but was an angel that rustled with some guy in the old testament with the law and the prophets? Said he also had thorn in his side to say. I wonder if paul was going back on that route or something. Curious I think nothing more.

He claims that Satan cursed him to keep him humble too, equally curious as he boasts about delivering people to Satan also.

I believe you are referring to Jacob who got his name "Israel" because it means "wrestles with God" and not an angel.

Some translations are embarrassed about this and change it to angel, but all oldest versions have God, not an angel, as even the meaning of Israel proves who it was he wrestles with.

And he won too!
 

jcforever

Member
The New Testament certainly is confusing regarding this issue, according to Paul the Law is"dead" "a curse" and was "ordained by angels" so he is not a reliable source, if he had bothered to read the Torah he would know that the Law was given by God to Moses and that nobody ever claims otherwise but him should be enough to rule out everything Paul says. At least regarding the Law.

Jesus said to obey all the Commandments, he didn't say anything other than that Love God and love your neighbor would fulfill this.

When James was consulted by Paul regarding circumcision before Barnabas left him, he gave four simple rules, decrees he got from the Holy Spirit.

No eating meat sacrificed to idols, strangled animals and blood, the fourth was against fornication (unless married obviously).

Paul teaches, contradicting the Holy Spirit, that idols are nothing and it is OK to eat idol meat as long as your weaker brother is not around.

Any exegete could tell you he is defying God by defying the Holy Spirit and maybe even blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that his direction not to do it in front of the Judaizers, ie, James and Jerusalem, is just saying it so they don't get caught and he doesn't get exposed for teaching against the Law.

Jesus in Revelation considers Paul's teachings on idol meat "the doctrine of Balaam." And condemns it, also stating to the Ephesians that they did good unmasking false apostles.

In the end James laid down the Law, the Jews with him kept the Law of Moses, were angry with Paul for teaching JEWS to forsake Moses, and declared the Law of Moses not incumbent upon Greeks and Romans, non Jews.

So love God, love your neighbor, and this fulfills the Law as long as you don't violate the decrees of the Jerusalem Council and are Baptized with water, Spirit and fire...

You will realize Islam is closer to the religion of James and Jesus than Christianity is and that Paul is an admitted liar who can't be trusted.

Hopefully!

It's much less complicated to listen to the voice of God and obey ALL His commandments. It's impossible to figure out what the scriptures are about unless God is involved.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
This was the difference between the old law and the laws that governed those taken into the new covenant.
Jesus was a Jew speaking to those under the law.
Christianity was not a system of written laws but an exercise of our conscience, based on the principles behind the law. The fleshly Jews would be abandoned by God as incorrigible, so a new nation was chosen to replace them. (Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14)

Romans 2:28-29:
"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

Jesus said....“‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

Look closely at what he said. "On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

So, the whole law was based on 'love of God and neighbor'. IOW, you could not break any one of those laws without showing a lack of love for God or your fellow man.


The law was not "destroyed" as Jesus said, but "fulfilled", so that the decrees were now replaced by the exercise of our conscience, no longer bound by a set of written laws. Laws can be obeyed with our mind but the exercise of conscience involves the heart.....which alone can fully appreciate what it means to truly "love" God and neighbor.

Christians now had laws inscribed in their hearts and exercised with their conscience. Under the law, there was no real exercise of conscience because the letter of the law condemned anyone who transgressed it and the penalty was applied without mercy in most cases.

1 Peter 3:16-18:
"Maintain a good conscience, so that in whatever way you are spoken against, those who speak against you may be put to shame because of your good conduct as followers of Christ. 17 For it is better to suffer because you are doing good, if it is God’s will to allow it, than because you are doing evil. 18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."

Can you see what Peter is saying? The price Jesus paid was so great that it covers everyone who exercises faith in it. One righteous man, by his death, covered the sins of many.


The ceremonial laws were pictorial....and the merit of the sacrifices were temporary. They had to be offered weekly for forgiveness of sins, but when Jesus offered his life, "once for all time", then no further sacrifice was necessary. Hence the ceremonial laws were "fulfilled" in Christ.


You tend to make everything so black and white OB.....that is not the way I see things at all. 1+1=2 but there are fractions in between. Jesus broke things down into fractions so that the conscience could break down those actions into a chain of events leading to an outcome. (e.g. Matthew 5:27-28) If one recognizes the first steps towards breaking God's law, then hopefully the conscience would kick in and prevent the steps that lead to serious sin. :shrug:

Vicarious atonement is hogwash that Jesus PBUH says nothing about whatsoever. This is Saul's personal theology that James rebuked, as does Peter in 2 Peter regarding his nonsensical epistles, subtly, but James is not subtle at all.

"Senseless man do you need to be told Faith without works is DEAD?"

His death is not a vicarious atonement, it was a display of the power of God, a sign for the believers of the generation.

Because if it covered ALL sin it would not benefit good people of other religions who don't deserve hell.

Just Paulinist Christianity.

Also, works would be unnecessary if that was the case but faith without works is DEAD.

So there is obviously more to it and it is obviously not a vicarious atonement, there are still things that can lead to Judgement and hell for the so called saved Christian.

Which means that sin is not covered by the blood of Christ but by obeying the Word of God and his Laws.

Like Jesus PBUH himself said.

If all you needed was to believe it you would be free to sin and could still go to Heaven.

Such nonsense!
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
It's much less complicated to listen to the voice of God and obey ALL His commandments. It's impossible to figure out what the scriptures are about unless God is involved.

I agree.

I am a Muslim but we also believe that, according to a Sunnah God's Word is of no benefit without knowledge (of God ie Gnosis).

I concur, whether you use the Bible or Qur'an the same is true.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
They didn't have a 613 law system then and today it is not agreed upon what those laws are and is impossible to fulfill some.
Oh yes...... 613 laws were all written down clearly for all to see.
Which ones are impossible to fulfuill?

What he said was if you Love God and love your neighbor as yourself, you fulfill the whole Law.
Oh, so Christians can stop judging others and immerse themselves in empathry, understanding and love...? That would be good.

Hillel the Rabbi also said this and added "the rest is commentary, go learn."
Yeah.... I know. Guess what? I've gone off to learn about Christian laws.... in depth. :)
 

jcforever

Member
I agree.

I am a Muslim but we also believe that, according to a Sunnah God's Word is of no benefit without knowledge (of God ie Gnosis).

I concur, whether you use the Bible or Qur'an the same is true.

Any servant who heard the voice of God was used for God's purpose, even if that servant was a false prophet that was used to start a new religion. Everything is going according to a plan so there's nothing we can do to change that plan. It is what it is. That means it makes no difference what religions there are on earth or who were chosen as servants, believers or those who reject God's voice spoken through his servants.

God bless you my friend in spirit. We all came from the spirit and we will remain in the spirit forever no matter what visible things we experience with our created sense of sight or our other created senses.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I always thought that Christians kept the ten Commandments, plus Jesus's two special commandments, plus some others....... so.... is this the 'beginner's list' of Christian laws? Why have these not all been offered so far?
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make an idol in the form of anything in heaven or on earth.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
5. Honour your father and mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
7a Do not lust after......
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour.
10. You shall not covert your neighbour’s house...wife...etc.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and all your mind." "Loveyour neighbour as yourself
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Here is a list of (purported) Catholic 'sins', but because they are unlawful in Catholic countries, I wonder if they could be called 'laws'? I don't know where they got this lot from, some are definitely from the Old Testament, I think?
I can quote the source of this list is asked to, but all I did was enter Catholic mortal sins list into Google and Wikipedia obliged. :)

NO.......:-

Abortion Adulation. Adultery. Apostasy. Blasphemy. Cheating and unfair wagers Contraception. Defrauding. Divorce . Drug usage .Freemasonry. Euthanasia …. Extreme anger. Fornication. Incest. Lying. masturbation, fornication, pornography, homosexual practices. Murder. Abortion. euthanasia. Perjury. Polygamy. Pornography. Magic or sorcery Prostitution .Rape. Sacrilege. Scandal . Schism. Simony. Suicide. Terrorism. Unjust prices. Unjust Wages

Is this a 'Christian' list?
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Oh yes...... 613 laws were all written down clearly for all to see.
Which ones are impossible to fulfuill?


Oh, so Christians can stop judging others and immerse themselves in empathry, understanding and love...? That would be good.


Yeah.... I know. Guess what? I've gone off to learn about Christian laws.... in depth. :)

Any Laws regarding Temple sacrifice can't be fulfilled.

And it was not that they were not written down but they just didn't have the concept of 613, even now try finding a list of what the 613 are, you will find different lists if any.

They don't do sacrifices anymore because they don't have a Temple because they refuse to build it anywhere besides Temple Mount (of Herod's Temple) and that is never going to happen.

Occupado.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Here is a list of (purported) Catholic 'sins', but because they are unlawful in Catholic countries, I wonder if they could be called 'laws'? I don't know where they got this lot from, some are definitely from the Old Testament, I think?
I can quote the source of this list is asked to, but all I did was enter Catholic mortal sins list into Google and Wikipedia obliged. :)

NO.......:-

Abortion Adulation. Adultery. Apostasy. Blasphemy. Cheating and unfair wagers Contraception. Defrauding. Divorce . Drug usage .Freemasonry. Euthanasia …. Extreme anger. Fornication. Incest. Lying. masturbation, fornication, pornography, homosexual practices. Murder. Abortion. euthanasia. Perjury. Polygamy. Pornography. Magic or sorcery Prostitution .Rape. Sacrilege. Scandal . Schism. Simony. Suicide. Terrorism. Unjust prices. Unjust Wages

Is this a 'Christian' list?

It looks like a partial list.

Yet the Law is dead....?

But you can't do things so is it really?

Such confusion, I am glad I converted to something that makes sense, at least if you like religion it does, I don't imagine atheists would agree with me, but I like my God one and my Prophets and Messiah (S) human.

Not God, Son of God (himself???) and son of man, an idiom meaning simply human in Hebrew.

When 3=1 maybe I will consider...

So, never.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
I always thought that Christians kept the ten Commandments, plus Jesus's two special commandments, plus some others....... so.... is this the 'beginner's list' of Christian laws? Why have these not all been offered so far?
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make an idol in the form of anything in heaven or on earth.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
5. Honour your father and mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
7a Do not lust after......
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour.
10. You shall not covert your neighbour’s house...wife...etc.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and all your mind." "Loveyour neighbour as yourself

I actually did explain this.

The ten commandments are fulfilled by fulfilling the greatest, love God, and the second, love your neighbor.

Plus the four decrees of the Jerusalem Council.

See my earlier comment for a full explanation.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
yeah I know and get it; are you saying the "jews" had to worship the golden calf to get thrown out their land or they are also left out of the new covenant.

Jews worshiped the golden calf and they walked the desert for 40 more years - they did not get thrown out

Jews refused to accept the new covenant even to this very day - they were not left out.

cat.jpg


You know meghan there is a software in your PC called MS Picture Manager or MS Paint which could improve on your profile pic (find the rotate left or right icon to use) so people won't develop neck cramps when they want to look at you.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Any servant who heard the voice of God was used for God's purpose, even if that servant was a false prophet that was used to start a new religion. Everything is going according to a plan so there's nothing we can do to change that plan. It is what it is. That means it makes no difference what religions there are on earth or who were chosen as servants, believers or those who reject God's voice spoken through his servants.

God bless you my friend in spirit. We all came from the spirit and we will remain in the spirit forever no matter what visible things we experience with our created sense of sight or our other created senses.

I don't know what you mean by false prophet but I know that false prophets are enemies of God and the truth and while I do consider Paul to have been a false prophet I don't consider Christianity to be a false religion, just not the religion of Jesus PBUH.

That would be Islam. But regardless the Qur'an is different from the Bible in that all People of the Book can go to Heaven if they were Righteous.

Magians, Sabaeans, Christians and Jews are all expected to be judged along with Muslims.

As the Qur'an says and people ignore, "There is no compulsion in religion."

I will just add if anyone in history that we know of was a Prophet PBUH of God with proof it is Mohammed PBUH.

Despite what people might say Islam was successful because of diplomacy and missionary activity, not because of "the sword."

And Europe was in the Dark Ages until Islamic science and philosophy rescued it. Adapted from the very Greek wisdom the early Church ridiculed, was translated by Muslims and put to use in making an earthly paradise called the Islamic Empire.

Europe didn't catch up until they copied us and the Church has had less power ever since because people started thinking for themselves, like Muslims always had an obligation to do.
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
Jews worshiped the golden calf and they walked the desert for 40 more years - they did not get thrown out

Jews refused to accept the new covenant even to this very day - they were not left out.

View attachment 16435

You know meghan there is a software in your PC called MS Picture Manager or MS Paint which could improve on your profile pic (find the rotate left or right icon to use) so people won't develop neck cramps when they want to look at you.

Jews have an eternal covenant and their New Testament is called the Talmud so if you think it is wrong for them to reject their religion for Christianity you are a fool.

They have more NEW teachings than Christianity would know what to do with, eternal covenants don't need revision.

Also the Hebrews who worshipped the cow were executed, except for Aaron who made it magically in the desert.

Moses had it ground to powder and mixed with water, the people were made to drink it and it made them easier for the Levites to kill.

So blaming today's Jews for that esoteric tale is not the most intelligent thing I have heard anyone say.

Or using the fact that they are not Christian, a Roman religion that obviously has no love for Jews and persecuted them for centuries, enslaved them and massacred them into the second diaspora, to claim they are in error is likewise ridiculous.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?
How were some O.T. laws dropped, and others kept?
A few Christians can be self-righteously judgemental about the lives, feelings, cultures, sexualities and beliefs of others.
Exactly what laws are within the New-Covenant, and which others 'repealed'?
All the laws of the Torah were part of the first covenant, which was fulfilled. Christians are under the second covenant, and the law we follow is called the Royal Law or Christs law in the NT. Some are stricter than in the Torah, e.g. adultery, but the "rules" for Christians are clearly spelled out in the NT
 

SethZaddik

Active Member
All the laws of the Torah were part of the first covenant, which was fulfilled. Christians are under the second covenant, and the law we follow is called the Royal Law or Christs law in the NT. Some are stricter than in the Torah, e.g. adultery, but the "rules" for Christians are clearly spelled out in the NT

Where does the NT say either Royal Law or Christ's Law?

And Christians never were a part of the so called old covenant, Jews had converts to Judaism but they were expected to uphold the Law.

Likewise Christ PBUH upheld the Law and declared every word of it valid but added that as long as you obeyed his teachings, Love God love your neighbor, Baptism of water and Spirit, fire, and don't violate the four decrees of the Jerusalem Council they are fulfilling the requirements of the religion of Jesus PBUH and the Apostles PBUT.

However if you reject those teachings, a must if you obey Paul's, you are not on the narrow path but the wide one.

And they are not compatible. Every Christian has to make a choice between following Jesus PBUH or following the Churches and Paul, who is a liar that claims the Law was ordained by angels, is dead, a curse and basically spends his time writing, writing against the Apostles calling them Judaizers and the circumcision faction, false apostles of Christ and claims to have withstood Peter to his face and resisted men of James as if it is heroic to fight with Righteous men.

I have too much respect for the 12 Apostles to follow the teachings of a man who clearly hates them.

But at the same time if it is your belief that they are compatible teachings, that even though there can only be 12 Apostles according to Acts and Apocalypse, the Gospels, that a self proclaimed apostle, Paul, is legitimate even though it violates the Bible's other books and teachings to believe such a thing is even possible, that Jesus didn't get his estate in order and needed to recruit the enemy to get the job done because the Apostles were told to make disciples of all nations but Paul declared himself the sole apostle to the goyim and that his word is reliable without corroborated testimony...

I wish you the best.
 
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SethZaddik

Active Member
All the laws of the Torah were part of the first covenant, which was fulfilled. Christians are under the second covenant, and the law we follow is called the Royal Law or Christs law in the NT. Some are stricter than in the Torah, e.g. adultery, but the "rules" for Christians are clearly spelled out in the NT

What are the "rules" of the second covenant exactly?"

Because to a Christian it is the first covenant as the Covenant of Abraham PBUH wasn't ever incumbent upon Greeks and Romans, non Jews.

If they believed and we're Baptized it was their first and only covenant, the Abrahamic covenant only applied to his descendants, Isaac and Ishmael and their descendants.

It is not as if the Law of Moses wasn't simplified to the point any nation could adhere to it so why would there be a need for a new covenant?

With no old one it is not new it is the first gentile covenant ever between the God of Moses and the nation's outside of Israel.

So there is no need to distinguish between old law and new law, the only Law for Christians should be the Words of Jesus PBUH. The rest is just commentary and secondary.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
What are the "rules" of the second covenant exactly?"

Because to a Christian it is the first covenant as the Covenant of Abraham PBUH wasn't ever incumbent upon Greeks and Romans, non Jews.

If they believed and we're Baptized it was their first and only covenant, the Abrahamic covenant only applied to his descendants, Isaac and Ishmael and their descendants.

It is not as if the Law of Moses wasn't simplified to the point any nation could adhere to it so why would there be a need for a new covenant?

With no old one it is not new it is the first gentile covenant ever between the God of Moses and the nation's outside of Israel.

So there is no need to distinguish between old law and new law, the only Law for Christians should be the Words of Jesus PBUH. The rest is just commentary and secondary.
Before Christ, to be right with God, a person would have to in some way participate in the Jewish faith, a pagan could not do so (as far as I know). There were converts to Judaism, and there were provisions for gentiles to be involved. One had to worship God within the Jewish system to be right with him. With Christ this system (covenant) was fulfilled, ended. Note that the system of sacrifice and the temple ended in 70 AD, Jews no longer keep that most critical part of the first covenant. The new covenant is with any who believe. I am sure you are a very intelligent person but I will take the NT references to the law of Christ and the Royal law, and Paul's affirmation multiple times of a second and new covenant over your opinion. Since The words of Christ are the only laws to be kept, do you ignore the various " you should do's" written by the Apostles outside of the Gospels ?
 
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