Christians, why do you hate Gays?

[MysticSang'ha]

I would like to share with you my true motives, since I have refuted the motives some attribute to me, or my fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ. My motives in voting in a Godly manner are three-fold, One being selfish really, in that I myself do not want to suffer the guilt of my condoning anything contrary to God's word. I feel If I vote in support, it is the same guilt as I would bear had I succumbed to the lifestyle myself.perhaps I am wrong and I would be open to rethink this part.

Secondly, my motives are of concern for these couples which God has said will be given over to theirselves and the destruction there of. Why would anyone support something that will bring destruction and wrath upon another? Is that really hate? Just because the person or persons doesn't believe in the wrath of My god, doesn't give him immunity from it, and so condoning a behavior or lifestyle contrary to God's word in which I believe is for all men, not only those who believe it, is hate in my opinion. Shouldn't we all want what is best for everyone? Shouldn't my love for you be shown to you by truth in what I believe in my own heart? If you had knowledge that a bridge was out ahead of my car, would you not try to stop me from falling to my death? This is love, not hate.

Thirdly, I want God's blessing on our nation. I fear God and know what he has done in the past and what he is capable of in the future for those who turn from him and go each to his own ways. Look at how conservative countries view America. A free style, Godless society filled with promiscuous perverts and an anything goes mentality. I am not saying they are correct in all, and sure their are far worse societies. But I do feel we are given over to what feels good, rather then what is good for us and I do fear the wrath of God on us a a whole and I vote to combat the things I Believe, and that are ungodly and will bring God's wrath on us all.

All religiously based.

May I ask what you render unto Caesar's....?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would like to share with you my true motives, since I have refuted the motives some attribute to me, or my fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ. My motives in voting in a Godly manner are three-fold, One being selfish really, in that I myself do not want to suffer the guilt of my condoning anything contrary to God's word. I feel If I vote in support, it is the same guilt as I would bear had I succumbed to the lifestyle myself.perhaps I am wrong and I would be open to rethink this part.

That doesn't force you to vote against same-sex marriage; it just suggests that you not vote for it. You can still choose not to vote at all.

Edit: and you haven't actually refuted the motives attributed to you or "your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ". You haven't said anything to suggest to me that this doesn't really just come down to saving face.

Secondly, my motives are of concern for these couples which God has said will be given over to theirselves and the destruction there of. Why would anyone support something that will bring destruction and wrath upon another? Is that really hate? Just because the person or persons doesn't believe in the wrath of My god, doesn't give him immunity from it, and so condoning a behavior or lifestyle contrary to God's word in which I believe is for all men, not only those who believe it, is hate in my opinion. Shouldn't we all want what is best for everyone? Shouldn't my love for you be shown to you by truth in what I believe in my own heart? If you had knowledge that a bridge was out ahead of my car, would you not try to stop me from falling to my death? This is love, not hate.

If that's your position, then it's your responsibility to be able to back up what you say with iron-clad proof.

If you can't do this, then you're just speaking from your subjective opinion. Stopping people from acting in accordance with their own subjective opinions would be like knocking someone's cone of chocolate ice cream out of their hand because you think that the only good flavour is vanilla.

If you only have a feeling that the bridge is out but you don't bother to check, then you do me no favours when you stop me from driving. If you're going to curtail the freedoms of others, then IMO you have a moral duty to confirm that you speak from truth. From what you've said in this thread so far, I don't think you've done this.

Thirdly, I want God's blessing on our nation. I fear God and know what he has done in the past and what he is capable of in the future for those who turn from him and go each to his own ways. Look at how conservative countries view America. A free style, Godless society filled with promiscuous perverts and an anything goes mentality. I am not saying they are correct in all, and sure their are far worse societies. But I do feel we are given over to what feels good, rather then what is good for us and I do fear the wrath of God on us a a whole and I vote to combat the things I Believe, and that are ungodly and will bring God's wrath on us all.

Exactly what blessings do you think would happen if you keep same-sex marriage legal?

The flipside of this is that the "blessings" a nation has received are signs that they're being favoured by God. Would you like to compare the well-being and standard of living in countries that allow same-sex marriage versus countries that don't?

 

[Jainarayan]

Let's not exaggerate...

Those all represent levitical prohibitions that no one adheres to. Yet let's keep quoting Lev. 18:22.

 

[Maya3]

I would like to share with you my true motives, since I have refuted the motives some attribute to me, or my fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ. My motives in voting in a Godly manner are three-fold, One being selfish really, in that I myself do not want to suffer the guilt of my condoning anything contrary to God's word. I feel If I vote in support, it is the same guilt as I would bear had I succumbed to the lifestyle myself.perhaps I am wrong and I would be open to rethink this part.

Secondly, my motives are of concern for these couples which God has said will be given over to theirselves and the destruction there of. Why would anyone support something that will bring destruction and wrath upon another? Is that really hate? Just because the person or persons doesn't believe in the wrath of My god, doesn't give him immunity from it, and so condoning a behavior or lifestyle contrary to God's word in which I believe is for all men, not only those who believe it, is hate in my opinion. Shouldn't we all want what is best for everyone? Shouldn't my love for you be shown to you by truth in what I believe in my own heart? If you had knowledge that a bridge was out ahead of my car, would you not try to stop me from falling to my death? This is love, not hate.

Thirdly, I want God's blessing on our nation. I fear God and know what he has done in the past and what he is capable of in the future for those who turn from him and go each to his own ways. Look at how conservative countries view America. A free style, Godless society filled with promiscuous perverts and an anything goes mentality. I am not saying they are correct in all, and sure their are far worse societies. But I do feel we are given over to what feels good, rather then what is good for us and I do fear the wrath of God on us a a whole and I vote to combat the things I Believe, and that are ungodly and will bring God's wrath on us all.

This is your personal belief. Which by the way is completely contrary to MY religious beliefs.
But you have every right to believe this stuff. What you don´t have the right to do is to impose laws on other people because you think that God would get mad and smite people.

Bring that to court and you would simply be laughed at.

Maya

 

[Penumbra]

For the record, when religious people ask non-religious people why they care about religion, or why they care what other people believe, this is the sort of example as to why.

If religious people were all just nice and friendly and reasonable and promoting of freedom, like some of them are, then the only religious discussions I'd ever have with them would be to discuss their worldviews out of curiosity or to improve and share knowledge on philosophy.

But throughout history and into the present day, there are millions of people every day working to build theocracies, working to harm people based on religious motivations, and describing wrath from malevolent deities if their positions are not granted.

Religion plays a very large role in the world, but any irrational, factually inaccurate, harmful, and hateful ideas can be demonstrated in the broader market place of ideas and reason to be inadequate.

For as long as there are people trying to discriminate against people without justification, and willing to reduce freedoms for irrational reasons, there will be people trying to defend those freedoms and counter illogical arguments.

 

[idav]

Those all represent levitical prohibitions that no one adheres to. Yet let's keep quoting Lev. 18:22.

To be fair I believe most people adhere to the stuff in that entire chapter. No relatives no inlaws no animals no sodomy etc.

So that verse sounds like it is talking about sodomy more than anything but I can't see how that is supposed to be enforced as a law.

 

[Jainarayan]

If you're voting on a ballot measure to make same-sex marriage illegal, then you absolutely do expect non-Christians to live by your laws, at least on this issue.

My point all along... plain and simple. :yes: I should have to live by the beliefs of those whose faith I don't belong to, in a country not governed by any religion? :no: Something is rotten in Denmark (actually it's their cheese... they don't use preservatives :slap.

 

[Penumbra]

I would like to share with you my true motives, since I have refuted the motives some attribute to me, or my fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ. My motives in voting in a Godly manner are three-fold, One being selfish really, in that I myself do not want to suffer the guilt of my condoning anything contrary to God's word. I feel If I vote in support, it is the same guilt as I would bear had I succumbed to the lifestyle myself.perhaps I am wrong and I would be open to rethink this part.

Secondly, my motives are of concern for these couples which God has said will be given over to theirselves and the destruction there of. Why would anyone support something that will bring destruction and wrath upon another? Is that really hate? Just because the person or persons doesn't believe in the wrath of My god, doesn't give him immunity from it, and so condoning a behavior or lifestyle contrary to God's word in which I believe is for all men, not only those who believe it, is hate in my opinion. Shouldn't we all want what is best for everyone? Shouldn't my love for you be shown to you by truth in what I believe in my own heart? If you had knowledge that a bridge was out ahead of my car, would you not try to stop me from falling to my death? This is love, not hate.

Thirdly, I want God's blessing on our nation. I fear God and know what he has done in the past and what he is capable of in the future for those who turn from him and go each to his own ways. Look at how conservative countries view America. A free style, Godless society filled with promiscuous perverts and an anything goes mentality. I am not saying they are correct in all, and sure their are far worse societies. But I do feel we are given over to what feels good, rather then what is good for us and I do fear the wrath of God on us a a whole and I vote to combat the things I Believe, and that are ungodly and will bring God's wrath on us all.

The deity you describe here, the one you say you fear, is depicted as malevolent (by definition). That's an abusive relationship. If it's going to kill people over things like this then that's something your religion and your beliefs have to work with. The things we follow showcase who we are.

You never answered my question about what religious scriptures you have read that lead you to speak on God's behalf. Out of the total sum of religious scriptures that are said by people to be divine or transcendental knowledge, which subset of them have you read and studied? You wouldn't impose harm on others based on only a tiny bit of reading, would you?

If you think homosexuality is wrong, then the easy thing to do should be to explain logically why it's wrong, and let people make the choice on how they want to do things. As it stands, there just aren't really any good arguments against this normal variation in human sexuality.

Disregarding the Constitution by describing malevolent acts from invisible beings is not a logical political basis.

Personally, I view all of the beliefs you've demonstrated here to be about as ungodly and unloving as beliefs could be. I can hope that people turn away from such things like those beliefs, but all I'd ever ask for is for beliefs to not be imposed on others.

 

[Lady B]

It means that "sin" is an obsolete concept. In Romans, Paul explains that if you commit an act thinking that it is a sin, then for you, it is a sin. But if you commit an act out of faith - as many of the same-sex couples who have been married in Christian churches did - then it is not a sin and is for the glory of God.[

"Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." (James 4:17)

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience..." (Ephesians 5:3-6)

'If anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those who sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.' (First John 5:16,17)
clearly you must know we all are sinners and do sin and our sin must be repented. If as you suggest Christians sins are obsolete, Read the directives given to the church for a brothers sin and how repentance must be done before bringing him back into the fold.

Yes, I do, but I think it warrants some explanation:

I think it was taken as given by the authors of the Gospels that Christianity would always remain on the fringes of society. I think they never envisioned that Christians or Christianity would hold political power.

But what do you think that Jesus meant when he told his disciples not to even worry about what they would eat or what they would wear? Do you take this seriously? If God's going to see to these basic needs of yours, why do you think you need to worry about things like secular laws?

why did God institute law at all then? obviously laws are important for any society, and a society that has a fair system of lawmaking where the people's voice matters, is a society I am greatful to live in, who would feel safe in a lawless society? Laws are given as a protection of course Jesus did not mean to support a Godless and lawlessness when He said do not worry for your clothes and food. He was showing men how they rely on themselves to the extent they do not rely on God to provide for them. I agree, God will provide for us and he does daily. But we must also act according to his will, not expect him to act according to ours.

But this still leaves us with the question of how we figure out what God wants people to do.

Is it scripture? The scripture supports both views.

Is it prayer? Prayer supports both views.

What's left?

Again by using verses regarding love and understanding,This does not give support men from breaking God's laws clearly defined elsewhere in scripture.You keep saying The Bible supports both views and accuse me of not supporting my side, when it is the opposite I see happening here, show me the verse that supports same sex marriage and or homosexuality.You may claim that Christ did not condemn any sin, clearly wrong. yes he raged against the pharisees who thought themselves rightous by their view of upholding the laws, Christ showed them they did not keep the laws entirley, but only outwardly. When Christ met the adultress woman he rebuked her and said go and sin no more.So why do you get the idea If he were here today he would vote for same sex marriage? cmon, you really need to be reasonable here.And when Christ said the greatest of all the laws is the commandment to love one another, he did not void the laws.and say only love one another and let God sort out the rest. In my opinion I am loving you by not supporting a behavior God has said is an abomination.

IMO, if you're going to impose your beliefs on others and deny their freedom in the process, then it's not enough for you to just hold the opinion that you're right; you have to have some sort of valid justification that says that the other side is actually wrong or unreasonable by taking their position. So far, you haven't given this. Until you do, you're on the same sort of shaky moral ground as someone who would outlaw chocolate ice cream because they only like vanilla.

On the contrary I have given my side and supported it well, Because you choose to ignore the blatant laws of God is only to your detrimate, not mine.

I don't think that's your intent, but I think that's the effect of your actions.

If the effect of my actions keep you from implementing a hell bound road, so be it.I see this as an act of love and concern, not hate.

And I don't think that you're distorting verses in the Bible as you are cherry-picking the ones you'll follow and the ones you won't. However, you're not alone in this: anyone who tries to infer a single, coherent position from the Bible has to reconcile the fact that the book is full of contradictory things.

Your opinion, not mine or The Bible believing religions. I see you distorting the verses and context to support an agenda clearly not Biblical why? Just say you don't believe it is the word of God and walk away, you don't need to find support in something you don't believe, right?

As for motivation, I think it's a matter of tradition and saving face. There are plenty of denominations that adopted anti-homosexuality views when these views were common and largely uncontroversial. Since then, though, the spotlight has been shone on just how cruel and harmful these views can be. Some denominations have responded to this by saying, effectively, "yes, you're right - we follow God, and God is a god of love. We are commanded to justice and mercy. We have come to realize that some of our past practices were not in accord with justice and mercy, so now we set them aside."

But this can be hard to do, because it can't be done without admitting that in the past, what they did was wrong and cruel. The human desire to save face can be very powerful, so many people are reluctant to do this.

I don't see this as any different than the issues of slavery or women's rights, two other issues where some churches and believers rejected the harmful, unjust positions of their past, while others clung to them long after they were recognized by society for what they are.


Standing up for justice is not "lukewarm". Why are you so deadset against acknowledging that there are many people who are motivated to support same-sex marriage because of faith that is just as strong as yours?

Edit: and if you expect praise for all the effort you put into explaining how you think it's a good idea to hurt people, then you'll be waiting quite a while before you get it, I think.


I gave you many.


So you disagree with Paul when he wrote "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself"?


Lol. Show me the verse in the Bible that says that. :sarcastic


Arrgh. I told you before: I agree that there are passages that are on both sides of the issue. I think your mistake is in trying to divine a single coherent message from dozens of books written by many different authors over centuries.


All of that is rather irrelevant until you provide a few verses that show God is okay with injustice and lack of mercy.


You're deflecting.

Is the issue of same-sex marriage an issue where it is essential that all believers oppose it?

Actually, just to back up so that I can understand your position better: do you think there are any non-essential issues at all?


"Hate crime" is a matter of definition in law that varies from place to place, but you are degrading your fellow human beings with your position. You advocate a position that harms vulnerable and innocent people; while I wouldn't call it evil because I don't think that's your intent, I think what you're doing is pretty darn close to the line.

 

[Alceste]

Well I did not make the rules, God did. I do agree that any violence at all is good cause. I am not sure why Christ made this the only allowance really. But I certainly would never want any person, man or woman to stay in a violent relationship, they must get out and seek help, I would.

You're letting your church make the rules, not your God.

I would like to share with you my true motives, since I have refuted the motives some attribute to me, or my fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ. My motives in voting in a Godly manner are three-fold, One being selfish really, in that I myself do not want to suffer the guilt of my condoning anything contrary to God's word. I feel If I vote in support, it is the same guilt as I would bear had I succumbed to the lifestyle myself.perhaps I am wrong and I would be open to rethink this part.

Secondly, my motives are of concern for these couples which God has said will be given over to theirselves and the destruction there of. Why would anyone support something that will bring destruction and wrath upon another? Is that really hate? Just because the person or persons doesn't believe in the wrath of My god, doesn't give him immunity from it, and so condoning a behavior or lifestyle contrary to God's word in which I believe is for all men, not only those who believe it, is hate in my opinion. Shouldn't we all want what is best for everyone? Shouldn't my love for you be shown to you by truth in what I believe in my own heart? If you had knowledge that a bridge was out ahead of my car, would you not try to stop me from falling to my death? This is love, not hate.

Thirdly, I want God's blessing on our nation. I fear God and know what he has done in the past and what he is capable of in the future for those who turn from him and go each to his own ways. Look at how conservative countries view America. A free style, Godless society filled with promiscuous perverts and an anything goes mentality. I am not saying they are correct in all, and sure their are far worse societies. But I do feel we are given over to what feels good, rather then what is good for us and I do fear the wrath of God on us a a whole and I vote to combat the things I Believe, and that are ungodly and will bring God's wrath on us all.

Lady B, are you gay or bisexual? You say "succumbed to the lifestyle" as if you're always having to resist a compelling temptation to become sexually and romantically attracted to women. Just to be clear, straight people don't feel that way. Straight folks fall for members of the opposite sex, gay people fall for members of the same sex, bisexual people fall for members of either sex. There's no "temptation" to switch sides that everyone has to resist to remain in their natural category. You sit where you sit, and that's that.

 

[Drolefille]

No I would not condone your marrying your Boyfriend, That is adultery.

No, that would be polygamy. Thanks Storm.
But it's not adultery because it was a condition of my boyfriend and his wife's marriage that they would date and have sex with other people. Therefore, neither of us is violating any of their vows, nor is there any lying or misleading about the matter. How is this adultery, particularly if they are not Christian? They break no vows, and neither do I.

Polygamy yes but she is still an adulteress, She is breaching the covenant of His marriage by her marriage. God did not advocate polygamy or give laws to organize it. It indeed was a practice in early Bible times, but saying it was God ordained is a clear misinterpretation.

Ooh no not that, I'm an adulteress. That sounds all scary.
So all of the early patriarchs were breaking God's law? Rachel, mother of Joseph was an adulteress? Onan was punished for NOT knocking up his brother's wife after all... but that was just old!God, and not real!God?

I agree married spouses do not have this issue in any significance,
however my point was,hetero couples that are not married struggle the same as homosexual couples who are not married, yet they still choose to have children knowing these struggles will take or could take place. And when either side chooses to have children, they put their children at risk of discrimination, not me as a voter.Is it preposterous to wait till your married to have children? And if they as a gay couple can't marry for legal reasons, then is it preposterous to wait until it is legal before bringing children into the mix at all? Really why is it my fault these children suffer? I would blame the parents for subjecting them to a legal system which is not conducive to their lifestyle.

Right, I mean people who disagree with me and live their life in a way I disapprove of should just NOT have kids or do things I disapprove of! I won't force them but I will judge them all over for it. Amiright? I'm so glad you and I agree.

This is a load of bull. Blaming the victims of discrimination for causing it? Reallly :sarcastic


And this is why when you say you want "God's blessing" on our nation that I say, that if this is your god's desire, I want no part of him. I will not live my life in fear of a deity who will punish me for not living a lie. I will not just be OK with discrimination in this country so that you can feel like your god still loves you.

If your god can't love you without you engaging in discrimination, harmful words and hateful actions then the problem is with your god, not with the rest of us.

 

[Lady B]

You're letting your church make the rules, not your God.



Lady B, are you gay or bisexual? You say "succumbed to the lifestyle" as if you're always having to resist a compelling temptation to become sexually and romantically attracted to women. Just to be clear, straight people don't feel that way. Straight folks fall for members of the opposite sex, gay people fall for members of the same sex, bisexual people fall for members of either sex. There's no "temptation" to switch sides that everyone has to resist to remain in their natural category. You sit where you sit, and that's that.

No I am not gay, I used the word succumbed as giving in and guilty with those that are guilty.

 

[Drolefille]

You're letting your church make the rules, not your God.



Lady B, are you gay or bisexual? You say "succumbed to the lifestyle" as if you're always having to resist a compelling temptation to become sexually and romantically attracted to women. Just to be clear, straight people don't feel that way. Straight folks fall for members of the opposite sex, gay people fall for members of the same sex, bisexual people fall for members of either sex. There's no "temptation" to switch sides that everyone has to resist to remain in their natural category. You sit where you sit, and that's that.

I turned pansexual because I was allowed to play in the kitchen cupboards as a child. I tried to fight it, but just gave in to the desire for sweet sweet pans. WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN :faint:

 

[Drolefille]

And no, it isn't loving someone to try to force them to live as you think they should. That's controlling someone.

 

[cataway]

3 Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; 4 neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. 5 For YOU know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy person—which means being an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God.



its like this gay's are going away

 

[Drolefille]

3 Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; 4 neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. 5 For YOU know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy person—which means being an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God.



its like this gay's are going away

You keep your Kingdom, we're good here.

/not gay.
//it's like some Christians forget there are more than 2 orientations.

 

[Onkara]

If you think homosexuality is wrong, then the easy thing to do should be to explain logically why it's wrong, and let people make the choice on how they want to do things. As it stands, there just aren't really any good arguments against this normal variation in human sexuality.

Disregarding the Constitution by describing malevolent acts from invisible beings is not a logical political basis.

Personally, I view all of the beliefs you've demonstrated here to be about as ungodly and unloving as beliefs could be. I can hope that people turn away from such things like those beliefs, but all I'd ever ask for is for beliefs to not be imposed on others.

My understanding is that homosexual acts are wrong because it is for pleasure i.e. desire. According to Paul. Desire of the flesh is wrong, not homosexual acts alone, they just fall into that category. So a Christian shouldn't masturbate or have any sex for pleasure, they should only copulate for reproduction.

 

[Alceste]

No I am not gay, I used the word succumbed as giving in and guilty with those that are guilty.

I see you've got all the bases covered then. If you fall in love, get married and have sex, no sin, no guilt! If my best friend, who is gay, falls in love, she can't get married even if she wants to, so she can never have legitimate sex, and any romantic relationship she has for her entire life will be sinful, according to you, and she should feel guilty, according to you. Even though you at doing exactly the same thing, and feeling just fine.

Sounds hateful to me, and hypocritical.

(Actually, my friend can and did get married, because I don't live in a backwards country of homophobes who believe the government should impose religious laws on the public.)

 

[Drolefille]

My understanding is that homosexual acts are wrong because it is for pleasure i.e. desire. According to Paul. Desire of the flesh is wrong, not homosexual acts alone, they just fall into that category. So a Christian shouldn't masturbate or have any sex for pleasure, they should only copulate for reproduction.

Paul wanted celibacy, as he thought the world was going to end soon and was only ok with marriage in a "well if you have to have sex, I guess..." sort of way.

 

[Lady B]

And no, it isn't loving someone to try to force them to live as you think they should. That's controlling someone.

Ridiculous that you feel a vote is force.....a Vote is a vote is a vote, I don't feel your vote is forcing me to accept your side, so why should my vote have this effect towards you?

You scream injustice, well I do not agree the system in the united states is faulty, you do There are many laws on the books that I voted against, I do not scream injustice or say liberals forced their beliefs on me.So go live in a society of dictatorship and see how your voice is heard. At least here you have the same voice as I do, your entitled to vote according to your passions as I am.