Christians, why do you hate Gays?

[-Peacemaker-]

You seem to be saying that the stonings proscribed in Leviticus law are nothing more than mans own revenge on the sinner, rather than Law.

?

Here's the post you quoted:

I recognize that even the OT ackowledged its own inferiority. I believe Jesus is the fullfillment of the promise of a new covenant and with that comes a new and improved standard of behavior. Among that new standard that Jesus instituted are thing such as "turning the other cheek" as opposed to taking revenge on someone as well as leaving the job of punishing sins to God instead of stoning people ourselves. Jesus however did not attempt to supercede the 10 commandments which would include the behavior in question (under idolotry). As far as the kosher stuff, the apostles came together in Acts and agreed that God was not calling the gentiles to become totally Jewish. For the sake of us gentiles I hope they were right hehehe..

Am I not writing in English? Your attempt to say that I'm claiming that stonings are man's revenge when I clearly said that they are a form of judgement defies logic.

 

[trot-trot]

People have always looked for someone to hate and an excuse to perpetuate hate. Hating people who are perceived to be on the "outside" of a group helps detract from the failings of that group, and place the locus of blame elsewhere. In many cases, xtian groups are upset that gays are getting more rights, and are frustrated that they can no longer enforce religion on others. So they naturally blame gay people for the progress of human society and the xtian's non-ability to keep up with modernity.

 

[Maya3]

People have always looked for someone to hate and an excuse to perpetuate hate. Hating people who are perceived to be on the "outside" of a group helps detract from the failings of that group, and place the locus of blame elsewhere. In many cases, xtian groups are upset that gays are getting more rights, and are frustrated that they can no longer enforce religion on others. So they naturally blame gay people for the progress of human society and the xtian's non-ability to keep up with modernity.

That hits the nail on the head.

Maya

 

[Ingledsva]

Calling it bull does not equate to actually responding to the concept that all the prohibitions would thus be related to Moloch worship by your logic. You simply don't like this fact I suppose. Why do you think 18:22 counts but 18:23 doesn't? Selective cherry picking to favor your doctrine perhaps? Otherwise, please explain why you'd include 22 but not the rest of the prohibitions after that.

And like I said, you will have a very hard time finding a single Commentary or Midrashic or Talmudic extrapolation that fits with this strange, arbitrary view. Why don't you try posting on the Judaism DIR and see what they have to say on this matter if you insist on dodging the issue that all the rest of the chapter would apply according to this?

And I am interested in seeing this verse you claim.

Actually I said 18:21-23. 21 says MOLECH - and 22 and 23 are KNOW acts of such Sacred Sex in the Temples.

Could others be related - sure - but only 21-23 are related for sure.

And by the way "midrash" would be between a.d. 400 and 1200. The debate as to meaning starting hundreds of years after the texts were written down - and that brings up a different problem - a thousand + years of man's memory!

 

[Shermana]

Actually I said 18:21-23. 21 says MOLECH - and 22 and 23 are KNOW acts of such Sacred Sex in the Temples.

Could others be related - sure - but only 21-23 are related for sure.

And by the way "midrash" would be between a.d. 400 and 1200. The debate as to meaning starting hundreds of years after the texts were written down - and that brings up a different problem - a thousand + years of man's memory!

Okay so you agree that the rest of the prohibitions like a girl not getting it on with her dad "Could be related", that's a good first step. Now then would you say that this act is only forbidden only if associated with Moloch worship?

In addition to Midrash we also have extra canonical writings written in the B.C. days.

 

[Ingledsva]

Okay so you agree that the rest of the prohibitions like a girl not getting it on with her dad "Could be related", that's a good first step. Now then would you say that this act is only forbidden only if associated with Moloch worship?

In addition to Midrash we also have extra canonical writings written in the B.C. days.

The only reason I say they could be related is because we have documents showing, for instance, the sex practices of the Roman Saturnalia for their Gods.

As to the second question - we are discussing actual homosexuality. We are discussing if the Bible actually has any references to REAL HOMOSEXUALs - and I see no such. Only Sacred Sex. Anything else is not in the Bible and is therefore just later tradition.

 

[Shermana]

The only reason I say they could be related is because we have documents showing, for instance, the sex practices of the Roman Saturnalia for their Gods.

As to the second question - we are discussing actual homosexuality. We are discussing if the Bible actually has any references to REAL HOMOSEXUALs - and I see no such. Only Sacred Sex. Anything else is not in the Bible and is therefore just later tradition.

There you go again, saying that the Bible only refers to "Sacred Sex" as if the prohibitions on Father-daughter relations only apply to "Sacred Moloch Sex", otherwise there's no prohibition? That makes no sense. Just because Moloch is mentioned in verse 21 doesn't mean that 22 and 23 apply but no other verses after in 18 apply. There's no reason to assume it's not singling out individual practices and not connecting them as in a relation to the first one. You will find NO ancient commentary that supports this concept and this is a totally recent idea without precedent, and an idea based on arbitrary use of the text. At what point would you end the associations with Moloch exactly? Why stop at Chapter 19 even?

We have documents of pretty much every kind of debauchery you can think of being involved with pagan worship, as I mentioned earlier. Does that mean the prohibitions only apply to that? Really, this is grasping at straws and pure arbitrary cherry picking worse than most Churches do to support their doctrines. You either accept all of Leviticus 18 as pertaining to what you're saying or you're cherry picking. Pick one.

 

[Ingledsva]

The only reason I say they could be related is because we have documents showing, for instance, the sex practices of the Roman Saturnalia for their Gods.

As to the second question - we are discussing actual homosexuality. We are discussing if the Bible actually has any references to REAL HOMOSEXUALs - and I see no such. Only Sacred Sex. Anything else is not in the Bible and is therefore just later tradition.

There you go again, saying that the Bible only refers to "Sacred Sex" as if the prohibitions on Father-daughter relations only apply to "Sacred Moloch Sex", otherwise there's no prohibition? That makes no sense. Just because Moloch is mentioned in verse 21 doesn't mean that 22 and 23 and no other verses after in 18 apply. There's no reason to assume it's not singling out individual practices and not connecting them as in a relation to the first one. You will find NO ancient commentary that supports this concept and this is a totally recent idea without precedent.

We have documents of pretty much every kind of debauchery you can think of being involved with pagan worship, as I mentioned earlier. Does that mean the prohibitions only apply to that? Really, this is grasping at straws and pure arbitrary cherry picking worse than most Churches do to support their doctrines. You either accept all of Leviticus 18 as pertaining to what you're saying or you're cherry picking. Pick one.

You are the one cherry picking.

In those sin lists we have specific verses dealing with father-daughter sex, etc.

We do NOT in those sin lists, or anywhere else in the Bible, have actual references to homosexuals. Every such pointed out text is actually about the Qadesh - Sacred Sex. You can't just change that because you are against homosexuality. But over the centuries people sure have tried.

 

[Shermana]

You are the one cherry picking.

In those sin lists we have specific verses dealing with father-daughter sex, etc.

We do NOT in those sin lists, or anywhere else in the Bible, have actual references to homosexuals. Every such pointed out text is actually about the Qadesh - Sacred Sex. You can't just change that because you are against homosexuality. But over the centuries people sure have tried.

How am I cherry picking? You're saying verses 22-23 apply but not the rest. I don't think I understand your objection about how we have "specific verses" for dealing with those but not the others. The same "specific verse" applies to 21 and 22. By your logic, you'd be saying that beastialism only applies to Moloch worship but otherwise is okay? (Since you said you may include 23) In no way have you demonstrated its exclusively referring to Qadeshim in these instances.

Again, this view has NO Precedent. It's complete revisionism based on arbitrary cherry picking.

What next, do you think the word "Harlot" only ever means female temple prostitute too?

 

[tumbleweed41]

You seem to be saying that the stonings proscribed in Leviticus law are nothing more than mans own revenge on the sinner, rather than Law.

Am I not writing in English? Your attempt to say that I'm claiming that stonings are man's revenge when I clearly said that they are a form of judgement defies logic.

Perhaps I misunderstood your reference to, "Among that new standard that Jesus instituted are thing such as "turning the other cheek" as opposed to taking revenge on someone...", since we were not discussing revenge, but rather Levitical Laws.

But why ignore this when speaking of, "Jesus however did not attempt to supercede[sic] the 10 commandments..."

As for Jesus and the Commandments;

Matt 22:37-40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Mark 12:29-31
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


Luke 10:25-28
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.



John 15:9
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.


John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.


John 15:17

These things I command you, that ye love one another.




If love is the greatest of all commandments made by Jesus, is hate the greatest of all sins?

 

[Ingledsva]

For what it's worth, 2 Peter 2:6-7 says that among their sins was indeed "Laviciousness"

Strong's Greek: 766.

We can see that it is rendered as "Sensuality" in many places. In Mark 7:22 it's defacto referring to "sexual immorality" or "lewdness".

Ezekiel characterizes the sins of Sodom as:

However, keep in mind that "Abomination" and "Destestable" things are often used for sexual practices that offend God, whatever they may be. It may not necessarily refer to them exclusively seeking males but in committing all the offenses outlined in Leviticus 18. Other than sexual sins, idolatry is about the only other "detestable" thing used with that word done before God (as opposed to an abominable thing before the people like eating shellfish, the word's usage is another issue). So while it's agreed that the sins of Sodom included inhospitality (if not downright cruelty to strangers as extracanonical Jewish writings suggest), it would be fair to say that the author of 2 Peter recognized that the "Detestable" thing was in the "Lavisciousness" category. Whether it was regarding mere orientation or forced-relations is another story, but I'd say there's little room for doubt that the early NT authors did regard the sin of Sodom as at least including such "Wantonness"/"Lewdness".

And Sacred Sex is to'ebah - it is idolatry.

 

[Shermana]

And Sacred Sex is to'ebah - it is idolatry.

Sigh. I've been over this, not every abomination is idolatry, but every idolatry is an abomination.

Strong's Hebrew: 8441.

Was every shepherd an idolatry to the Egyptians?

Genesis 46:34
BIB: גֹּ֔שֶׁן כִּֽי־ תוֹעֲבַ֥ת מִצְרַ֖יִם כָּל־
NAS: shepherd is loathsome to the Egyptians.

Was a Blemished Sheep an idolatry?

Deuteronomy 14:3 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

Is a Divorced woman an idolatry for her husband to remarry if she divorces a new husband?

http://biblos.com/deuteronomy/24-4.htm

Are unjust scales idolatry too? So every time someone rips me off on the package weight, it's involved with idol worship?

http://biblos.com/deuteronomy/25-16.htm

Please, seriously, take the time to look these kinds of things up, I really hate having to repeat myself.

And with that said, the word "Detestable" it not necessarily the same as Tobah.

 

[Ingledsva]

How am I cherry picking? You're saying verses 22-23 apply but not the rest. I don't think I understand your objection about how we have "specific verses" for dealing with those but not the others. The same "specific verse" applies to 21 and 22. By your logic, you'd be saying that beastialism only applies to Moloch worship but otherwise is okay? (Since you said you may include 23) In no way have you demonstrated its exclusively referring to Qadeshim in these instances.

Again, this view has NO Precedent. It's complete revisionism based on arbitrary cherry picking.

What next, do you think the word "Harlot" only ever means female temple prostitute too?

There is absolutely no reason for them not to put in a couple lines against Sacred Sex in a group of what men are not to do verses.

As I said earlier - All Qadesh are prostitutes - but not all Prostitutes are Qadesh.

Qadesh are Sacred Temple Prostitutes - and are always connected to such in the verses.

By the way has anyone else noticed that all of Leviticus 18 is about what MEN should not do sexually to WOMEN?

 

[Shermana]

There is absolutely no reason for them not to put in a couple lines against Sacred Sex in a group of what men are not to do verses.

As I said earlier - All Qadesh are prostitutes - but not all Prostitutes are Qadesh.

Qadesh are Sacred Temple Prostitutes - and are always connected to such in the verses.

By the way has anyone else noticed that all of Leviticus 18 is about what MEN should not do sexually to WOMEN?

Can someone else explain to me how this remotely rebuts what I said?

 

[starlite]

It does not mention homosexuality in 1 Co 6:9.

New International Version (©1984)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
English Standard Version (©2001)
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,
International Standard Version (©2012)
You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Or do you not know that evil men do not inherit The Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; no fornicators, neither worshipers of idols, neither adulterers, neither sexual molesters, neither males lying down with males,
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Don't you know that wicked people won't inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals,

 

[Shadow Wolf]

New International Version (©1984)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
English Standard Version (©2001)
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,
International Standard Version (©2012)
You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Or do you not know that evil men do not inherit The Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; no fornicators, neither worshipers of idols, neither adulterers, neither sexual molesters, neither males lying down with males,
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Don't you know that wicked people won't inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals,

The one I'm familiar with, and that has a few hundred years on the ones you linked to, does not say homosexuals.

King James Version (KJV)
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

[tumbleweed41]

New International Version (©1984)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
English Standard Version (©2001)
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,
International Standard Version (©2012)
You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Or do you not know that evil men do not inherit The Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; no fornicators, neither worshipers of idols, neither adulterers, neither sexual molesters, neither males lying down with males,
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Don't you know that wicked people won't inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals,

ἀρσενοκοῖται, or arsenokoites, has never been used to refer to homosexuals in any ancient Greek writing, other than in Biblical translations. In fact ἀρσενοκοῖται is only been found in 77 times in extant Greek manuscripts. Like the Levitical reference, the term likely refereed to Temple Prostitution, a common practice in the Hellenized world. As Leon Morris, in the Tyndale New Testament Commentary on 1 Corinthians wrote: “The inclusion of idolaters may point us to the immorality of much heathen worship of the day.”
Many Greek biblical scholars also conclude that arsenokoites seems to refer to any "unnatural sexual act, or sex without procreation."

On another note, malakoi, which is commonly translated as effeminate in the Bible, is more correctly translated as intellectual or moral weakness.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sigh. I've been over this, not every abomination is idolatry, but every idolatry is an abomination.

Strong's Hebrew: 8441.

Was every shepherd an idolatry to the Egyptians?

Genesis 46:34
BIB: גֹּ֔שֶׁן כִּֽי־ תוֹעֲבַ֥ת מִצְרַ֖יִם כָּל־
NAS: shepherd is loathsome to the Egyptians.

Was a Blemished Sheep an idolatry?

Deuteronomy 14:3 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

Is a Divorced woman an idolatry for her husband to remarry if she divorces a new husband?

Deuteronomy 24:4 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

Are unjust scales idolatry too? So every time someone rips me off on the package weight, it's involved with idol worship?

Deuteronomy 25:16 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

Please, seriously, take the time to look these kinds of things up, I really hate having to repeat myself.

And with that said, the word "Detestable" it not necessarily the same as Tobah.

LOL! I am well aware of the definitions, and one of them is idolatry.

 

[Ingledsva]

So which OT laws are valid, and which are to be dismissed?
Just food prohibitilns and stonings?

Yep, that is where they become two-faced. Most will tell you Iesous fulfilled the law, and they don't have to follow that OT stuff - then they will turn around and throw that OT law at people doing things they don't like.

 

[Shermana]

LOL! I am well aware of the definitions, and one of them is idolatry.

Right. ONE of them is idolatry. Therefore, to say that such forms of prohibited carnality is "idolatry" necessarily is proven bunk.