Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
You asked for an alternative
I supplied one....
If you want to stick to literalism, fine
I was merely supplying an alternative...
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Christless Christianity
- Thread starter Christless Christianity
- Start date
You asked for an alternative
I supplied one....
If you want to stick to literalism, fine
I was merely supplying an alternative...
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Are you capable of making NO anthi Christian posts in one day?
Your posts only confirm my negativity toward orthodox Jews and their need to assert that their group has the biggest sausage....
arent there more constructive comments than simply stating
" I dont believe in Jesus, nu nu na nu nah nah nah"
slave2six
Substitious
The article that you referenced speaks to the idea of creation ("If science proves that the world was not created, I think that would destroy the Christian faith.") I have no problem with creation or intelligent design and I disagree with the author in that if you removed the whole creation story and just started in the Garden, the Christian faith would remain unchanged. That great minds like that of R.C. Sprouls refuses to see the reality of this is unfortunate because what he uses to support his faith and debunk science is a non-issue with regards to the integrity of the faith.
This is why I wanted to be clear that you agree that the FoM and the Garden story are the foundations of the Christian faith. As I stated before, that story can only be true if everything was in fact created 6,000-10,000 years ago or even if mankind first showed up on the scene around that time but such a notion contradicts the factual data and therefore cannot be accurate.
The point is, since the foundations are inaccurate or flat out wrong, why would you cling to the rest of the religion?
slave2six
Substitious
I cannot tell if this is an attempt to show dismay or if you are demonstrating that you are willfully blinding yourself.
I asked for alternatives, yes, but (as I said before) we already disqualified the alternatives that you set forth and so your comments were not germane to the discussion.
slave2six
Substitious
We are well past that. I don't know whether the author was a liar, a dupe, or simply mistaken but none of that matters if the FoM stuff is wrong.
Christless Christianity
Member
I'm still not following your reasoning. I know Professor Kiine at Westminster Seminary West teaches and believes in a non-literal 6 day creation. And you know the Reformed Christians including Westminster Seminary tend to have the brains in Christianity. I just don't see how that would shake your faith. There has to be more...
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
it was dismay
but lets face it, you are looking for black and white answers....
ne'er mind...
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Of course I am. You didn't seem to pay attention to what I responded to, I imagine.
But it doesn't bother you at all that the author of John says that whoever believes in God but doesn't believe in Jesus has made God a liar.
I am not usually anti-Christian, Mr. Cheese. However, when Christians put down people for not believing in Jesus, I have no problem defending those other people. And more often than not, those other people are Jews true to Torah.
There are lots of other religions I don't believe in, either. But usually, people from those religions don't point to my religion and say why not believing someone else's interpretation in my religion is to follow my religion falsely.
Many times, yes. Sometimes, not really.arent there more constructive comments than simply stating
" I dont believe in Jesus, nu nu na nu nah nah nah"
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
That works for me, too.
slave2six
Substitious
Hmmm. Again with the creation story. I don't understand what you don't understand.
Leave creation alone for a minute and think only about the Garden story. You agreed that it had to have literally happened as described in Genesis.
What I am saying is that it is impossible for it to have happened at all simply from the timelines alone. Let's look at it from another perspective.
It has been established that homo sapiens have been on this planet for not less than 195,000 years and that the first non-nomadic cultures are not less than 50,000 years old. Let's just say that God planted Adam and Eve on the globe at that time and that the Garden story happened as did all the other stuff up to Noah and the flood. That accounts for about 2,000 years of human history. Assuming that Adam and Eve were the very first humans, they would have had to be alive 195,000 years ago. There is therefore a 193,000 years gap between Noah and Abraham at which point the story continues. In this instance, there is a lot of human history that is missing and it is impossible that the author of Genesis would have any information about the first two human beings that is at all reliable. Even if God talked with them directly, there are such huge gaps that one has to wonder. Indeed, the idea is insupportable.
No matter how you look at it, a literal interpretation of Gensis 3 is impossible.
The only alternative is Cheese's allegory/mysticism which has more problems than a literal interpretation would have.
The point is that the FoM is a myth. It is untrue. It is inaccurate. And as a consequence, Christianity has absolutely no basis. None. There is not a single possibility that the FoM story can be true or factual or however you want to phrase it. None. It is a logical impossibility and even from an allegorical perspective it's nonsense.
And this is where the great edivide begins. Faith does not require truth, fact or reality. One simply has to believe and that's the end of that.
I don't have the capacity to put faith in something just because someone tells a story well. If I did, I'd probably lean toward "The Hive Queen and the Hegemon" as a holy book (see: Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card)...
slave2six
Substitious
Out of the mouth of two witnesses... I agree with this for Señor Queso seems to be having great difficulty with this today.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
No I dont have a problem, why? I see the bigger picture and don't take such things literally.
If christians are puttign you down, it is their problem. If they feel the need to assert their superiority it is their problem.
....
Better to be an adult and rise above it
than act like the children.
“Let everyone cry out to God and lift his heart up to God, as if he were . . . (this is how to pray . . .) hanging by a hair and a tempest were raging to the very heart of heaven and he were at a loss for what to do and there were hardly time to cry out. It is a time when no counsel indeed can help a man and he has no refuge save to remain in his loneliness and lift his eyes and his heart up to God and cry out to Him. And this should be done at all times for in the world a man is in great danger.”
–Chasidic tradition
For you I shall wait above in the chariot of water,
on the moon, my resting place until the world is saved,
and always send down help to you.
Whoever strikes you, do not strike back`.
Whoever hates you, do not hate back.
Whoever envies you, do not envy again.
Whoever strikes you with anger, always return him with kindness,
and what you deplore in others do not yourself do.
No, you must endure insults and abuses
from those of higher station, from equals and those below,
because you who are devout and endure will not waver.
If someone throws flowers against an elephant,
these flowers cannot smash an elephant.
If raindrops fall on a stone,
these raindrops cannot melt the stone.
So insults and abuses can in no way make the devout
and of good endurance waver.
—attributed to Mani
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
I think this is a rather complicated question, one that may not generalized to the whole of christianity (I do realize you only siad 'much' of today's christianity). Often when speaking to chrisitans or reading their comments on forums such as these the terms 'god' or 'in the bible' are used more often than Jesus or Christ. In that regaurd it would seem that jesus is not in the for front of christian minds. Then again, since they believe jesus is the son of god or god incarnate jesus could be the one they are thinking of when they say god, but in my experience when someone means god the father they just say god and when they mean jesus they say his name or use messiah.
For those that do reference jesus though, I find people doing things that would seem contrarty to what jesus would do, at least on the serface. Some practice hate towards certian groups, recent polls suggest christians are more likely to support the war than non-christians, and you even get the very radical actions once in a blue moon like the killing of doctors in church because of their proffesion (although the ladder example is certainly not representative of the majority). When it comes down to it, the question then becomes a now familiar one, 'what would jesus do'? To the average christian I think the answer to this would be appearent. Jesus demonstraights a dislike for physical violence, a generally compasionate heart, an interest in equality or at least no interest in gender discrimination. But when one digs deeper, while the majority of jesus' actions and words were admirable. he also had his flaws or contradictions. While jesus often showed compassion, there's the example of the sumaritan woman who was forced to demean herself before jesus before he would bother to help her daughter. A good man helps for the sake of helping. He killed animals and tree's needlessly. making a theif and criminal out of himself in the process. And he was a hypocrite, who on several occasions contradicted his words with his actions. Such as loving one's enemy. When towns denied jesus, he cursed them, saying they would suffer a fate worse than sodom. He called the pharasee's fools (after his own discouragment of this words usuage) and vultures, and cursed at them. Not particularly loving. And so on and so on.
So when it comes down to it a christian can do anything he or she feels like and can still be said to be christ like, because the christian's christ was a hypocrite, so no action can be contrarty in the religion.
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ayani
member
actually, both can be equally far from God.
it's very possible for a man to have excellent Christian theology down intellectually, and yet be estranged personally from God.
one's personal proximity to God is not based on works, or or profession or creeds or concepts. rather it is based on one's personal relationship to the One through whom God chose to make Himself personally known, and to save us.
the man who is gracious and kind is doing the right thing, yet that does not mean that He knows and walks with God. likewise, the second man's good grasp of theology is no guarantee that he is any closer to God personally than the first man.
it's very possible for a man to have excellent Christian theology down intellectually, and yet be estranged personally from God.
one's personal proximity to God is not based on works, or or profession or creeds or concepts. rather it is based on one's personal relationship to the One through whom God chose to make Himself personally known, and to save us.
the man who is gracious and kind is doing the right thing, yet that does not mean that He knows and walks with God. likewise, the second man's good grasp of theology is no guarantee that he is any closer to God personally than the first man.
blueman
God's Warrior
It comes down to this: Absent of an active realtionship with Christ, you will be more inclined to revert back to a worldly way of living and a self-centered existence. If you ignore fellowship with God through His Word, prayer and church fellowship, you will be guided by a fleshly nature rather than a God-centered focus. Devotion is critical in the life of a Christian.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
Where in the bible does it say to expect a personal relationship with god?
ayani
member
Humanist ~
there is the belief in and reality of, for Christians, a personal relationship with God because of and through Jesus Christ.
from John's Gospel:
Jesus answered, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you really knew Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him."
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
(John 14:6-9)
in other words, that if one personally knows and follows the Risen Lord, one knows and walks with God Himself. this is how and where the relationship with God comes in, because the Father has come down to be known and seen and to personally save us through the Son.
there is the belief in and reality of, for Christians, a personal relationship with God because of and through Jesus Christ.
from John's Gospel:
Jesus answered, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you really knew Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him."
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
(John 14:6-9)
in other words, that if one personally knows and follows the Risen Lord, one knows and walks with God Himself. this is how and where the relationship with God comes in, because the Father has come down to be known and seen and to personally save us through the Son.
slave2six
Substitious
OK. Here's your chance to prove it. God knows everything, right? Ask him to tell you my mother's middle name and country of birth. If he tells you then I'll believe you have a relationship with him. Shouldn't be too hard.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
I am aware that it is a belief TODAY in christianity to have a personal relationship with christ. However there is no biblical support for this belief, nor has it been a part of christianity for long. It's only in the last century of two that this idea has been taught, or so I've been told. The head of the religious studies program at my college once put forward a large extra credit assignment. If one true passage confirming this belief could be found in the NT we'd be garanteed an A, because after years of searching and studying he could not find this, nor could any scholar he knew. If you do have a solid verse I'd love it if you'd give the passage. I'd enjoy sending it to my old proffesor. However the passage you listed prior to this does not seem to indicate one should expect a personal relationship with the one you call christ. Do you have a passage that does not require some creative interpreting to fit your meaning?
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ayani
member
slave ~
a Muslim challenged me to do the same thing, friend.
on the same grounds, for the same reason.
but quite honestly, asking a question or demanding something of God to prove something or to test Him is testing Him. and i know, that doesn't answer your question, or help to convince you.
i could ask God, friend, and His answer would be right and correct, if He chose to answer. but this is something you have to ask Him, friend. not about your mother (you already know the answers to those, and so does He), but concerning what you're asking to see evidence of in my life.
if i do tell you the right answer, friend, heck it could be that i have some kind of extra-sensory perception, or guessed correctly. and that would be evidence of an unusual ability and an awsome capacity to guess correctly, not of a relationship with God. do you see what i mean?
a Muslim challenged me to do the same thing, friend.
on the same grounds, for the same reason.
but quite honestly, asking a question or demanding something of God to prove something or to test Him is testing Him. and i know, that doesn't answer your question, or help to convince you.
i could ask God, friend, and His answer would be right and correct, if He chose to answer. but this is something you have to ask Him, friend. not about your mother (you already know the answers to those, and so does He), but concerning what you're asking to see evidence of in my life.
if i do tell you the right answer, friend, heck it could be that i have some kind of extra-sensory perception, or guessed correctly. and that would be evidence of an unusual ability and an awsome capacity to guess correctly, not of a relationship with God. do you see what i mean?